View Full Version : US agents shot at on Mexico border
Chewy
01-06-2006, 12:20 PM
MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - U.S. Border Patrol agents have come under fire twice along the Rio Grande in Texas in recent days amid rising tension on the frontier with Mexico, although no one was reported wounded, U.S. authorities said on Thursday.
A Border Patrol spokesman said unknown gunmen fired on agents on patrol in Brownsville, Texas, late on Wednesday. It was not immediately clear if the shots came from Mexico or from within the United States.
"Shots were fired, no one was injured and the FBI have taken the case over," Jose Rodriguez, a spokesman for the Border Patrol in McAllen, Texas, said by telephone.
Rodriguez said the shooting was the second along the same stretch of the Rio Grande in the past week, after agents patrolling the area in a launch on Friday came under a volley of gunfire from Mexico.
"On that occasion the shooters were hiding in brush on the Mexican side of the river ... The launch was struck by five bullets, although there were no injuries," he said.
That incident came on the same day a Border Patrol agent fatally shot a teenage Mexican immigrant as he crossed the border near San Diego on December 30, triggering widespread anger in Mexico and calls for a full investigation.
Speaking to Mexican diplomats late on Wednesday, President Vicente Fox reiterated calls by the Mexican government for clarification of the killing, and pledged to "ensure that total justice is done in the case."
The 2,000-mile (3,200-km) U.S.-Mexico border has always been dangerous, although violent attacks on Border Patrol agents have risen in recent months, especially in Arizona, where around half the 1.2 million undocumented immigrants nabbed crossing from Mexico were detained last year.
The Tucson sector Border Patrol said attacks on agents havroe almost doubled in recent months, and included cases in which officers have been shot at, rammed with cars and pelted with rocks by immigrants and smugglers.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-01-05T183209Z_01_SIB566190_RTRUKOC_0_US-MEXICO-USA.xml&rpc=22
Looks like a tough job is getting tougher.
droogsteve
01-06-2006, 12:38 PM
We've been fucking around too long. We need the military to secure the border.
vchampionl70
01-06-2006, 01:12 PM
We've been fucking around too long. We need the military to secure the border.
Agreed. And I wouldn't be upset if they started erecting a wall either.
Don't expect the Mexican government to do anything about it either, regardless if it's Mexican civilians, smugglers of drugs or people, or actual Mexican forces, because any way you cut it, it's good for Mexico. This is just gonna escalate to war, and this is just a big step in that direction.
Tension's been there, now we actually have acts of aggression with lethal weapons.
Fox is their hero now, but all he's gonna do is bring a massive hurt that, if they need to promote their citizens leaving their country to have any chance of success at, they have no way of overcoming.
The American Dream has taken us to the western coast, and now it looks like it's gonna start to expand southward.
BlueMind
01-06-2006, 01:19 PM
This is just gonna escalate to war, and this is just a big step in that direction.
Yeah, buddy, we're going to go to war with Mexico. :rolleyes:
kevinsmith
01-06-2006, 01:26 PM
Wait, I thought all of the illegal immigrants were just a bunch of hard working people? I thought there were no criminals in the group, and they just want to make an honest buck. So this means that there might actually be some security element to the need to control the border, and it's not just some racists who are upset cause "dey turk ar jerbs!"
csite
01-06-2006, 01:28 PM
1.2 million Mexicans were caught crossing the boarder? wow!
camilo
01-06-2006, 01:41 PM
Instead of thinking about walls and army, why dont you start to regulate your own people? I mean, who gives money to the illegal immigrants? your own companies !!!
If you dont want immigrants dont hire them. it's your fault.
appleb
01-06-2006, 01:41 PM
Yeah, buddy, we're going to go to war with Mexico. :rolleyes:
Isn't Canada on the list before Mexico?
Yeah, buddy, we're going to go to war with Mexico. :rolleyes:
If the situation deteriorates to the point of Mexican citizens shooting American citizens when the border is between the two and the Mexican government does nothing to curb their citizens doing so, then yes, military action will/should be taken by the US on the Mexican government because then their government would, by not actively condemning such acts, would be sponsoring its citizens in violently disrupting our sovereignity.
And cam1lo, we are finally taking steps to regulate our companies. Overdue, I agree, and not enough as it should be yet, it's starting. But the issue of illegal immigration is one that requires actions by both governments involved to resolve: us policing our people to make sure they don't encourage it, and yours not devoting government money to programs that sponsor and encourage it and actually try and stimulate your economy so it's more attractive financially to stay there. Don't play the blame game and saying your citizens coming here and breaking our laws is our fault.
323miklo
01-06-2006, 02:05 PM
yea funny how most of the drugs get floated or flown in here by the CIA tho
Synch
01-06-2006, 02:35 PM
Instead of thinking about walls and army, why dont you start to regulate your own people? I mean, who gives money to the illegal immigrants? your own companies !!!
If you dont want immigrants dont hire them. it's your fault.
Because illegal mexican immigrants are more abusable, they don't know that much english and aren't protected by the unions. If my company needed a cheap labor force, I would hire illegal mexicans, however, not all are abusable workers, some are criminals, drug dealers, pregnant woman. We should make a law on the babies given birth by illegal immigrants should be transported back to their country of original asap.
Should those who provide and advertise porn to children be not punished and blame the children for being tempted? Regulate the children from buying the porn.. it's their own fault.. pfft.
We need the wall and army to keep the bad out, I'm all for non english speaking not protected by union cheap labor, but at the cost that it is right now, it's not worth it.
and we already have enough mexicans. :bigwink:
Seriously more laws are needed to screw illegal immigrants.
Instead of thinking about walls and army, why dont you start to regulate your own people? I mean, who gives money to the illegal immigrants? your own companies !!!
If you dont want immigrants dont hire them. it's your fault.
Yeah, because we all know big corporate business know what's best for a countries population :rolleyes:
You're blaming the fact that immigrants are hired by multi million corporations as cheap labour on the general population? ha.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 03:16 PM
Because illegal mexican immigrants are more abusable, they don't know that much english and aren't protected by the unions. If my company needed a cheap labor force, I would hire illegal mexicans, however, not all are abusable workers, some are criminals, drug dealers, pregnant woman. We should make a law on the babies given birth by illegal immigrants should be transported back to their country of original asap.
We need the wall and army to keep the bad out, I'm all for non english speaking not protected by union cheap labor, but at the cost that it is right now, it's not worth it.
and we already have enough mexicans. :bigwink:
Seriously more laws are needed to screw illegal immigrants.
We don't need a wall. You know how bad that will look for us. If indeed a wall were built on the Southern border than it would make sense to have one on the Canadian border right?
Instead of an ineffective wall, we need an effective program that would allow those willing to work here, come here safely. They wouldn't have to go through the whole legal process (very difficult and time consuming), instead this process would be very quick and efficient. Both our country and Mexicans would benefit.
"laws to screw illegal immigrants"?. No, we need laws to ensure their human rights while here in the U.S.. But of course, we need to solve this flow of illegal immigration, it's not safe for us.
I welcome not only more Mexicans, but also more of every culture too. That's what this country is about right? Mexicans, Japanese, Europeans, Arabs, we open our doors to everyone.
camilo
01-06-2006, 03:26 PM
Yeah, because we all know big corporate business know what's best for a countries population :rolleyes:
You're blaming the fact that immigrants are hired by multi million corporations as cheap labour on the general population? ha.
Im saying that the goverment should start by punishing to all the people that hire illegal immigrants.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 03:29 PM
Im saying that the goverment should start by punishing to all the people that hire illegal immigrants.
Why would the government want to do that? Illegal immigrants are contributing to our economy through taxes. From an economic point of view, the benefits are immense.
Im saying that the goverment should start by punishing to all the people that hire illegal immigrants.
Good point. Maybe some laws to punish those that hire illegal immigrants would be a good idea. I would suggest a large fine.
But, I don't know if it works the same over there than over here, illegal immigrants arn't the problem, we can deport them. It's the fact that it is so fucking easy to get visa's and passports to be able to stay in our country, illegal or not. So laws against hiring illegal immigrants in England wouldn't be very effective, but like I said, I don't know much on the situation over the pond.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 03:48 PM
Good point. Maybe some laws to punish those that hire illegal immigrants would be a good idea. I would suggest a large fine.
But, I don't know if it works the same over there than over here, illegal immigrants arn't the problem, we can deport them. It's the fact that it is so fucking easy to get visa's and passports to be able to stay in our country, illegal or not. So laws against hiring illegal immigrants in England wouldn't be very effective, but like I said, I don't know much on the situation over the pond.
Well, over here in the U.S. illegal immigration aids our economy in a way. They also provide a source of cheap labor, especially for farmers. Maybe that's not the case for England though. ??
Well, over here in the U.S. illegal immigration aids our economy in a way. They also provide a source of cheap labor, especially for farmers. Maybe that's not the case for England though. ??
No, a vast majority of our immigrants apply for visa's/greencards or apply for refuge status. Which means that the vast majority of immigrants in our country get given a house and hundreds of £'s in benefits from the government for doing little or no work at all.
Which I why I want to live in Canada, New Zealand or Austria.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 04:01 PM
No, a vast majority of our immigrants apply for visa's/greencards or apply for refuge status. Which means that the vast majority of immigrants in our country get given a house and hundreds of £'s in benefits from the government for doing little or no work at all.
Which I why I want to live in Canada, New Zealand or Austria.
Wow, are you serious? That's pretty dumb on the part of the government.
Over here, illegals mostly just cross the border or apply for visa's, but that doesn't mean they're entitled to aid? Most of the illegal immigrants from Central and South American come here and earn their paychecks through hard labor. Most of them don't even recieve the benefits (from work) they deserver because either they're afraid of being caught or don't know about them. So the money deducted from their paychecks goes to us Americans.
Where do most of the immigrants in England come from anyway?
Why not come to the U.S.? There's alot of work here too.
Trogdorite
01-06-2006, 04:05 PM
yea funny how most of the drugs get floated or flown in here by the CIA tho
Please explain, in detail, how and why the CIA is smuggling drugs into the USA (thats what i took from your post).
I believe in securing the US border with mexico, with the military or a wall. Illegal immigrants are only good for corperations, not the economy. You have people getting payed wages that are not taxed (however miniscule they may be). I believe corperations that hire illegal immigrants should be heavily penalized.
And also, to the above poster who said the american dream is now taking us southward, please look at the american mexican war, I think two thirds of mexico was annexed in that campaign.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 04:12 PM
Please explain, in detail, how and why the CIA is smuggling drugs into the USA (thats what i took from your post).
I believe in securing the US border with mexico, with the military or a wall. Illegal immigrants are only good for corperations, not the economy. You have people getting payed wages that are not taxed (however miniscule they may be). I believe corperations that hire illegal immigrants should be heavily penalized.
And also, to the above poster who said the american dream is now taking us southward, please look at the american mexican war, I think two thirds of mexico was annexed in that campaign.
I don't believe in a wall or military. I believe in a peaceful and effective program such as the Guest Worker program. That will reduce the illegal border crossings, protect illegals crossing the dangerous areas of the border, benefit our economy, and benefit illegals looking for work.
kevinsmith
01-06-2006, 04:26 PM
yea funny how most of the drugs get floated or flown in here by the CIA tho
And Bigfoot is the pilot, right?
Im saying that the goverment should start by punishing to all the people that hire illegal immigrants
Works for me!
The thing that gets me is the people who continue to think that this is just about immigration and what not. It's not just about jobs. It's about drug running, terrorist threats and all the other pitfalls of an open border. In a time when so many people want to do harm to the United States, a border that is about as secure as Paris Hilton's celibacy is not exactly the smartest thing to have.
We don't need a wall. You know how bad that will look for us. If indeed a wall were built on the Southern border than it would make sense to have one on the Canadian border right?
Yup! Works for me!
Synch
01-06-2006, 04:38 PM
We don't need a wall. You know how bad that will look for us. If indeed a wall were built on the Southern border than it would make sense to have one on the Canadian border right?
Instead of an ineffective wall, we need an effective program that would allow those willing to work here, come here safely. They wouldn't have to go through the whole legal process (very difficult and time consuming), instead this process would be very quick and efficient. Both our country and Mexicans would benefit.
"laws to screw illegal immigrants"?. No, we need laws to ensure their human rights while here in the U.S.. But of course, we need to solve this flow of illegal immigration, it's not safe for us.
I welcome not only more Mexicans, but also more of every culture too. That's what this country is about right? Mexicans, Japanese, Europeans, Arabs, we open our doors to everyone.
No because it's two completely different circumstances. Canadians aren't illegally pouring into the US in the millions. Their largest industry isn't money sent back from the US by workers there.
Your pathetic little attempt at no discrimination can't stand up because it's like comparing squirrels to lions. We cage up lions in urban places and habitated areas, but not squirrels, but your logic we put every single squirrel, the ones up my tree, up your tree, in captivity?
You want over immigration, so anyone who works can go here without the paperwork? That's an insane, unrealistic, and ineffective idea. Anyone can get through, they can be criminals, child molesters, and why should we let all those willing to get in to this country and strain our government by getting benefits only legal immigrants and citizens should deserve paid by their tax?
More immigration, but mexico has 99.9% of illegal immigrants, how many illegal japanese/european immigrants are illegal? It's because it's so inconvient for them.. our border with mexico is 2000 miles. It's very EZ.
Why do they deserve legal rights and benefits of a legal immigrant or citizen when they don't deserve it? A pregant mexican gives birth, and now the child get's to benefit from welfare? NO, send the child back immediately. Billions are lost catering to these illegal immigrants, it's not good for this country.
Overimmigration will run this country into the ground.
We want the best of the world to immigrate here, the smartest, the ones that will benefit and give this country the most, we don't want milllions of immigrants living on welfare, even though they don't pay taxes.
I say if an immigrant is too poor to live here, (while not attending school), kick em out.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 04:50 PM
No because it's two completely different circumstances. Canadians aren't illegally pouring into the US in the millions. Their largest industry isn't money sent back from the US by workers there.
Your pathetic little attempt at no discrimination can't stand up because it's like comparing squirrels to lions. We cage up lions in urban places and habitated areas, but not squirrels, but your logic we put every single squirrel, the ones up my tree, up your tree, in captivity?
You want over immigration, so anyone who works can go here without the paperwork? That's an insane, unrealistic, and ineffective idea. Anyone can get through, they can be criminals, child molesters, and why should we let all those willing to get in to this country and strain our government by getting benefits only legal immigrants and citizens should deserve paid by their tax?
More immigration, but mexico has 99.9% of illegal immigrants, how many illegal japanese/european immigrants are illegal? It's because it's so inconvient for them.. our border with mexico is 2000 miles. It's very EZ.
Why do they deserve legal rights and benefits of a legal immigrant or citizen when they don't deserve it? A pregant mexican gives birth, and now the child get's to benefit from welfare? NO, send the child back immediately. Billions are lost catering to these illegal immigrants, it's not good for this country.
Overimmigration will run this country into the ground.
We want the best of the world to immigrate here, the smartest, the ones that will benefit and give this country the most, we don't want milllions of immigrants living on welfare, even though they don't pay taxes.
I say if an immigrant is too poor to live here, (while not attending school), kick em out.
Okay, sure, you're absolutely correct when it comes to immgrants coming from South of the border. But if you're advocating for National Security (not only protection from child molestors (if any), but also from terrorists) don't you think they will try to cross the Canadian border as well?
And no, you're wrong. I wasn't "attempting" to be unracists or intolerant, I'm just stating what I believe this country is about. Of course, I never said the country should be open to "illegal immigration". On the other hand, I believe everyone should have a shot at coming here. If Mexicans want to come here to work, sure come here, but it would be wiser to document those who come here through some sore of Guest Worker Program.
Wrong again, millions are lost catering to illegals, but BILLIONS are gained from illegal immigration. They do indeed pay taxes. They even gain fake Social Security numbers to work. Their paychecks get taxed too. Most of them don't even take advantage of the benefits because of fear of being deported. They're also beneficial to farmers who suffer labor shortage.
Most of them are very contibutive to our economy. Don't kick any of them out unless they are problematic.
Synch
01-06-2006, 04:57 PM
Okay, sure, you're absolutely correct when it comes to immgrants coming from South of the border. But if you're advocating for National Security (not only protection from child molestors (if any), but also from terrorists) don't you think they will try to cross the Canadian border as well?
And no, you're wrong. I wasn't "attempting" to be unracists or intolerant, I'm just stating what I believe this country is about. Of course, I never said the country should be open to "illegal immigration". On the other hand, I believe everyone should have a shot at coming here. If Mexicans want to come here to work, sure come here, but it would be wiser to document those who come here through some sore of Guest Worker Program.
Wrong again, millions are lost catering to illegals, but BILLIONS are gained from illegal immigration. They do indeed pay taxes. They even gain fake Social Security numbers to work. Their paychecks get taxed too. Most of them don't even take advantage of the benefits because of fear of being deported. They're also beneficial to farmers who suffer labor shortage.
Most of them are very contibutive to our economy. Don't kick any of them out unless they are problematic.
I'll get back to you later... school comps so fucking slow.
Except you wrong on every point.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 05:00 PM
I'll get back to you later... school comps so fucking slow.
Except you wrong on every point.
Alright. Lol. Yeah, I hate those cheap computers too.
Deamatix
01-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Im saying that the goverment should start by punishing to all the people that hire illegal immigrants.
:lmao:
And that makes any sense.. how?
Viet Era Marine
01-06-2006, 05:30 PM
What needs to happen is that Corps like
Wally-World and others, should be crucified.
I'm talking about fines in the range of $10-50 MIL
per Illegal. That will shut off the floodgate.
Wally-World and others that profit from Illegal
immigration and "slave" labor (China) should have
their doors slammed shut!
We don't need a wall, we need to kick the crap out
of the Corps that abet this kind of garbage.
Regards,
VEM
kevinsmith
01-06-2006, 06:01 PM
Wrong again, millions are lost catering to illegals, but BILLIONS are gained from illegal immigration. They do indeed pay taxes. They even gain fake Social Security numbers to work. Their paychecks get taxed too. Most of them don't even take advantage of the benefits because of fear of being deported. They're also beneficial to farmers who suffer labor shortage.
Most of them are very contibutive to our economy. Don't kick any of them out unless they are problematic.
Okay, you seriously think that someone who does something dishonest, like getting a fake Social Security number so they can work with he employer thinking they are legal, is going to be honest enough to pay taxes when they don't have to? Or how about the people who get SSNs that are basically ripped off of other people, or as we like to call it, Identity Theft. You think THESE people are paying taxes? And how many illegal immigrants are getting paid under the table, because they are hired by scumbags? You think THEY are paying taxes? Shit, even senators who advocate higher taxes for the rich shelter their money so THEY don't have to pay taxes. So you honestly think some guy who just snuck in the border, who is here illegally and doesn't want the government to know, is going to go ahead and send the government their yearly IRS check? Mmhm. Right. Let me know when the Lollipop Fairy comes and we all get free chocolate bars.
323miklo
01-06-2006, 06:01 PM
Please explain, in detail, how and why the CIA is smuggling drugs into the USA (thats what i took from your post).
You know the CIA gets half its money from drugs to support the wars and operations it takes place in. You know the CIA used the American Mafia to bring drugs into Oakland California back in the 60's to eliminate the Black Panther Movement. You know the CIA brought Crack cocaine into the black ghetto neighbor hoods back in the 80's to fuel the drug war between the Bloods and Crips. Take a look at some of the links below
http://www.finalcall.com/features/cia-dope.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/blacks-targeted.html
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/opi007.htm
http://www.csun.edu/CommunicationStudies/ben/news/cia/970318.waters.html
http://www.oilempire.us/drugs.html
http://www.parascope.com/mx/articles/garywebb/garyWebbSpeaks.htm
323miklo, quit wasting our time with dumbass conspiracies backed by "facts" from obviously biased sources that, I'm sorry to tell you, no one knows simply because they aren't true. Yes, we know of these accusations, but existance does not constitute truth.
The Bloods and Crips needed no encouragement.
The Black Panthers would really appreciate you telling them that they are weak-minded enough to be brought down by drugs.
The mafia would not want to engage in business with the government, because they would be open to being brought down by the government. It would basically hand the CIA all the evidence they want in order to take out yet another of their targets they are trying to eliminate.
And drug money is in no way going to substantiate an income for wars in a significant enough amount to justify using them, let alone HALF of the CIA's budget.
Common sense is wonderful when you apply it to what you read before accepting what you read as true.
:lmao:
And that makes any sense.. how?
They are encouraging and aiding illegals in their illegal endeavors, making them an accomplice, which in and of itself is illegal. Since you can't jail a corporation because of its intangible existance, fining the fuck out of it is the only option and logical too seeing as how money is the language in which corporations like Wal-Mart communicate. It's all about prices and revenues with them. Fuck with their revenue giving the reason being they employ illegals and they'll change their tune.
And also, to the above poster who said the american dream is now taking us southward, please look at the american mexican war, I think two thirds of mexico was annexed in that campaign.
At the time of that war, the nation was in what resembled a bit of an L shape, if you mirror the image of an L and then rotate it 90 degrees left, leaving a huge chunk of land not owned by us still blocking us out of being coast-to-coast. Sure, we had Oregon and Washington, but when the idea of spreading west came about, it envisioned doing so all up and down our Vertical axis. The dream was only partially realized.
Furthermore, it was considered western expansion and not southern expansion because most of the population that expanded into that area came from the east, not the north.
Now, since we are completely north of Mexican land, any expansion into that land is considered southern expansion.
And next time, don't fucking nitpick something I say that everyone obviously understands the meaning behind. I'll tear you a new one trying trying to argue technicalities with me out of spite and annoyance that people feel the need to try and pick out insignificant alternative meanings in what I say just to make themselves feel smart.
vchampionl70
01-06-2006, 06:09 PM
We don't need a wall. You know how bad that will look for us. If indeed a wall were built on the Southern border than it would make sense to have one on the Canadian border right?
Wrong. When was the last time you heard of an exodus of immigrants from Canada?
Instead of an ineffective wall, we need an effective program that would allow those willing to work here, come here safely. They wouldn't have to go through the whole legal process (very difficult and time consuming), instead this process would be very quick and efficient. Both our country and Mexicans would benefit.
"laws to screw illegal immigrants"?. No, we need laws to ensure their human rights while here in the U.S.. But of course, we need to solve this flow of illegal immigration, it's not safe for us.
I welcome not only more Mexicans, but also more of every culture too. That's what this country is about right? Mexicans, Japanese, Europeans, Arabs, we open our doors to everyone.
Frankly, I don't care if we need more population to work in the US. We could solve the problem just as societies did years ago, by encouraging our population to have more children. The influx of cheap, illegal labor is no better than slavery in that it proves to be a burden on the growth of our economy. How? With cheap and indispensible labor, companies do not need to invest in new procedures, methods or technologies.
Plus, most of the statistics which show immigrants provide a boost to the economy fail to take into account the effect that their /children/ will have on our education and social welfare systems.
Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes but are afforded all of our luxuries. Legalizing immigration to a greater extent will not help the economic situation, as new immigrants would then be protected by the minimum wage laws. Their utility will be lost and the US will find itself with a large, unemployed, foreign population living in our borders.
Wall and military all the way.
Once again, we just need to but mexico. Then they dont have to run over here
zamphir66
01-06-2006, 07:12 PM
We need to consider the possibility that these immigrants are in fact being pulled across the border by an as-yet unidentified force, perhaps related to magnetism.
Synch
01-06-2006, 08:05 PM
We need to consider the possibility that these immigrants are in fact being pulled across the border by an as-yet unidentified force, perhaps related to magnetism.
It's called easy money. ;)
Okay, sure, you're absolutely correct when it comes to immgrants coming from South of the border. But if you're advocating for National Security (not only protection from child molestors (if any), but also from terrorists) don't you think they will try to cross the Canadian border as well?
And no, you're wrong. I wasn't "attempting" to be unracists or intolerant, I'm just stating what I believe this country is about. Of course, I never said the country should be open to "illegal immigration". On the other hand, I believe everyone should have a shot at coming here. If Mexicans want to come here to work, sure come here, but it would be wiser to document those who come here through some sore of Guest Worker Program.
Wrong again, millions are lost catering to illegals, but BILLIONS are gained from illegal immigration. They do indeed pay taxes. They even gain fake Social Security numbers to work. Their paychecks get taxed too. Most of them don't even take advantage of the benefits because of fear of being deported. They're also beneficial to farmers who suffer labor shortage.
Most of them are very contibutive to our economy. Don't kick any of them out unless they are problematic.
1. But I wasn't advocating for national security, I was advocating for economic prosperity. Mexico and canada doens't hate us..
2. Yes this country is about freedom and fairness, but this is two completely different situations, get it through your head! If canadians are pouring into the US through the northern border, then put a wall there. This is like saying, in order to be fair, we need to put up levees in every state because of fairness... it would be useless and a waste of money!
That's the stupidest thing I've read, seriously in my entire short 13 year life, first you say you don't support uncontrolled illegal immigration, but then "On the other hand, I believe everyone should have a shot at coming here. If Mexicans want to come here to work, sure come here". Why? Can anyone in the world just come if they want just because they are hardworking? If they are hardworking but possess no skills we need and we're forced to give them benefits, lot of benefits, because of human rights? We don't need them..
3. Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, millions are catered to them but they don't give any back. They provide cheap labor, nothing more. Illegal immigrants, working illegally, don't have to pay taxes! Is that so complicated to understand lol, they don't even have a worker's permit.
They don't deserve the benefits, because they don't pay taxes, they should be deported, if they fear being deported why the fuck should they still recieve benefits? Should a criminal, a inmate on death row let's say, deserve benefits but can't get them because he's afraid of being catched by the police??
There are already enough cheap labor wetbacks for our farming labor shortage.
they are undermining our economy by sending in billions of black money back to mexico, 1% of the mexican economy is from money sent back from the US, billions and billions, they do not contribute to our economy, only cheap labor. If you take money out of our economy, and give it to the mexican one, who benefits??
Where do most of the immigrants in England come from anyway?
Why not come to the U.S.? There's alot of work here too.
Turkey, India, The whole of the Middle east, poor european countries and Africa.
There's no evidence to support a wall would be bad.
In fact, historical evidence dictates a wall would be awesome for us.
China's had a Great Wall for how long and are the longest lasting sovereign nation in the history of the world, spanning across many huge eras including Rome, Greece, Phoenicia, Egypt, Alexander the Great, etc.
Plus, look what its tourist appeal does for them. Hell a Mexican-American wall would stimulate economies via tourism on both sides.
And yes, I'm well aware of the Berlin Wall and how long that lasted, but that was intended for total isolation, whereas the Great Wall and the wall being debated here are intended to blockade one, specific group.
Chewy
01-06-2006, 09:08 PM
We've been fucking around too long. We need the military to secure the border. What like Check Point Charlie??
RevDude
01-06-2006, 09:53 PM
It's called easy money. ;)
1. But I wasn't advocating for national security, I was advocating for economic prosperity. Mexico and canada doens't hate us..
2. Yes this country is about freedom and fairness, but this is two completely different situations, get it through your head! If canadians are pouring into the US through the northern border, then put a wall there. This is like saying, in order to be fair, we need to put up levees in every state because of fairness... it would be useless and a waste of money!
That's the stupidest thing I've read, seriously in my entire short 13 year life, first you say you don't support uncontrolled illegal immigration, but then "On the other hand, I believe everyone should have a shot at coming here. If Mexicans want to come here to work, sure come here". Why? Can anyone in the world just come if they want just because they are hardworking? If they are hardworking but possess no skills we need and we're forced to give them benefits, lot of benefits, because of human rights? We don't need them..
3. Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, millions are catered to them but they don't give any back. They provide cheap labor, nothing more. Illegal immigrants, working illegally, don't have to pay taxes! Is that so complicated to understand lol, they don't even have a worker's permit.
They don't deserve the benefits, because they don't pay taxes, they should be deported, if they fear being deported why the fuck should they still recieve benefits? Should a criminal, a inmate on death row let's say, deserve benefits but can't get them because he's afraid of being catched by the police??
There are already enough cheap labor wetbacks for our farming labor shortage.
they are undermining our economy by sending in billions of black money back to mexico, 1% of the mexican economy is from money sent back from the US, billions and billions, they do not contribute to our economy, only cheap labor. If you take money out of our economy, and give it to the mexican one, who benefits??
1. Okay, fair enough. So a wall for the Southern border. Gotcha.
2. I never said anything about fairness, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. To tell you the truth, putting a wall on the Canadian border only because of "fairness" is a stupid reason. I said to put a border there only because Al Quaeda opperatives would be able to cross there. But I realized you weren't talking about national security, you were talking about economic prosperity, so I'll just leave the whole wall issue then.
3. Illegals DO PAY TAXES, of course not all of them (I'll give you that one),but nonetheless there are those who do indeed get deducted from their paychecks, IS THAT so hard to understan? I'm not to certain of the figures but they do indeed contribute in the BILLIONS in tax dollars. Now, how much they drain from our social programs is questionable as far as our discussion goes, we need some outside sources (reliable that is).
4. Now look at it this way. What do you prefer? Having companies outsource their jobs to other countries or keeping it here so that some Americans can at least have a shot at them. Illegals are the only hope of keeping those jobs here in this country. I'm pretty sure if companies didn't have this abundance of cheap labor from immigrants, they would have already outsourced the jobs they have hear.
5. Another thing I think is worth pointing out to. So far we've only been looking at the short-term affects of immigration. What about the long-term affects. We never know how tremedously beneficial immigration could be 10-15 years from now. I mean, sure, illegals are less likey to have a college education, but what about their children or grandchildren (US citizens b/c of being born here). They will have had a high school and college education thus be able to enter the high-skill labor sector. More high-skill workers is always better for a country right? But we'll have to wait and see about that though, ooooo, I don't know, say 15-20 years from now when the immigrants children are all grown up.
RevDude
01-06-2006, 10:03 PM
Wrong. When was the last time you heard of an exodus of immigrants from Canada?
Frankly, I don't care if we need more population to work in the US. We could solve the problem just as societies did years ago, by encouraging our population to have more children. The influx of cheap, illegal labor is no better than slavery in that it proves to be a burden on the growth of our economy. How? With cheap and indispensible labor, companies do not need to invest in new procedures, methods or technologies.
Plus, most of the statistics which show immigrants provide a boost to the economy fail to take into account the effect that their /children/ will have on our education and social welfare systems.
Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes but are afforded all of our luxuries. Legalizing immigration to a greater extent will not help the economic situation, as new immigrants would then be protected by the minimum wage laws. Their utility will be lost and the US will find itself with a large, unemployed, foreign population living in our borders.
Wall and military all the way.
1. Um, hmmm. Lets think for a moment. Say there was this abundance of cheap labor (from illegal/legal immigrants). Don't you think these money hungry CEO's would just look to other countries for their cheap labor? What would you rather have? Them outsourcing jobs or keeping them here so that Americans and illegals have a shot at them, even if the pay is low?
2. Your right. Short-term statistics don't take into account their children because if most immigrants came during the 1910-2000 period, their children are still young. Statistics show their children are more educated then their parents. They will have gone to college, graduated, and get a higher-skilled job. We must look at those long-term benefits to see how illegal/legal immigration will benefit this country.
3. Illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes (get deducted from their paychecks), but probably not for those that recieve cash instead. I'm not entirely sure about the numbers, but they do pay taxes.
vchampionl70
01-06-2006, 11:11 PM
1. Um, hmmm. Lets think for a moment. Say there was this abundance of cheap labor (from illegal/legal immigrants). Don't you think these money hungry CEO's would just look to other countries for their cheap labor? What would you rather have? Them outsourcing jobs or keeping them here so that Americans and illegals have a shot at them, even if the pay is low?
So instead we should import our foreigners? That's nonsense. At least a shortage of jobs at home would prompt change.
2. Your right. Short-term statistics don't take into account their children because if most immigrants came during the 1910-2000 period, their children are still young. Statistics show their children are more educated then their parents. They will have gone to college, graduated, and get a higher-skilled job. We must look at those long-term benefits to see how illegal/legal immigration will benefit this country.
And then the problem of today is compounded. Only difference is the US is now supporting greater populations who speak a foreign language. Instruction, as I'm sure you can imagine, is quite difficult when someone speaks a different language as the instructor.
And if everyone gets a higher-skilled job (assuming we will have an indispensible amount of "higher-skilled jobs available) then who is going to do the "low skill jobs"? Why, immigrants of course!!!!! Let's just keep importing immigrants rather than figuring out real ways to solve the issue.
3. Illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes (get deducted from their paychecks), but probably not for those that recieve cash instead. I'm not entirely sure about the numbers, but they do pay taxes.
Many, as you say, receive their money under the counter. Why? So bosses can pay them less! How many of the immigrants, do you suppose, fill out tax forms who receive under the counter money? My guess is not a whole lot. How many of their children attend our public schools? How many utilize our hospitals? How many clog our roads? How many mutilate the English language?
Immigration is not a solution to any problems we are facing. It is, in fact, a simple way of ignoring the problem which, in years to come, will result in a massive economic breakdown for our nation.
There's no evidence to support a wall would be bad.
It really depends on how much one puts into the wall. If it's merely a chainlink fence, it's obviously worthless since people to the south of us surely have the technology to cute wire. But how about if we go for something bigger, approaching the wall dividing Germany. Then we ask ourselves, who pays for it? States? The federal government? Who mans the wall? Law enforcement? If so, at what level? If the military, you're looking at quite a bit of protesting about the military operating in a non-disaster relief capacity within our borders.
It really depends on how much one puts into the wall. If it's merely a chainlink fence, it's obviously worthless since people to the south of us surely have the technology to cute wire. But how about if we go for something bigger, approaching the wall dividing Germany. Then we ask ourselves, who pays for it? States? The federal government? Who mans the wall? Law enforcement? If so, at what level? If the military, you're looking at quite a bit of protesting about the military operating in a non-disaster relief capacity within our borders.
We oprate within our borders all the time for reasons other than emergancy relief. That is NOT our primary function. Our function is to defend the US from all enemies foreign and domestic, which includes people entering our nation illegally.
And obviously, something as big as the German Wall or Chinese Wall would generate a lot of jobs in order to build, man, and maintain, which would help stimulate our economy.
We oprate within our borders all the time for reasons other than emergancy relief. That is NOT our primary function. Our function is to defend the US from all enemies foreign and domestic, which includes people entering our nation illegally.
And obviously, something as big as the German Wall or Chinese Wall would generate a lot of jobs in order to build, man, and maintain, which would help stimulate our economy.
Saying we serve to defend against enemies foreign and domestic is all well until one decides to label these people as enemies. Undesirable? Sure. Criminals? I can buy that. Enemies, though, is kind of pushing it and is sure to brings calls of xenophobia, and not just from non-Americans, but from Americans themselves.
And one *still* has to figure out who is going to pay for the wall. Saying that jobs will be generated doesn't pay for anything. Taxes derived from workers come later, after budgets have been drawn up and funds allocated. And that would be a *very* interesting debate to see who would foot that bill.
RevDude
01-09-2006, 10:10 PM
There are already enough cheap labor wetbacks for our farming labor shortage.
Woah! I didn't see this until now. I guess anything you say is just plain stupid for now on. How can I take you seriously after using such names? "Wetback"? WTH!!???
tonythetiger
01-09-2006, 10:20 PM
I say we make a wall, like with bricks, have the regular guard patrol and then have a voluntary guards, put motion sensors near the wall so that an outpost can detect them, have the wall go down atleas 4 feet so that they cant just dig under the wall. Very expensive, very useless, lets just nuke em:preachon:
RevDude
01-09-2006, 10:33 PM
I say we make a wall, like with bricks, have the regular guard patrol and then have a voluntary guards, put motion sensors near the wall so that an outpost can detect them, have the wall go down atleas 4 feet so that they cant just dig under the wall. Very expensive, very useless, lets just nuke em:preachon:
Right...
Nah, I don't think so.
Synch
01-09-2006, 10:56 PM
Woah! I didn't see this until now. I guess anything you say is just plain stupid for now on. How can I take you seriously after using such names? "Wetback"? WTH!!???
What is the correlation between racial terms and the credibility of my posts? None, you are only using this to try to make me look like a racist, thus denoucing my arguement because in a fair debate you would lose so obviously, now counter the points that countered your previous post to the one I'm quoting right now or hold your silence forever in this thread.
I'm guessing you're very religious in a psychotic way, WTH stands for what the hell correct?
Right...
Nah, I don't think so.
I think so, and so should you.
Saying we serve to defend against enemies foreign and domestic is all well until one decides to label these people as enemies. Undesirable? Sure. Criminals? I can buy that. Enemies, though, is kind of pushing it and is sure to brings calls of xenophobia, and not just from non-Americans, but from Americans themselves.
And one *still* has to figure out who is going to pay for the wall. Saying that jobs will be generated doesn't pay for anything. Taxes derived from workers come later, after budgets have been drawn up and funds allocated. And that would be a *very* interesting debate to see who would foot that bill.
First off, as a defender of the Constitution, which is our central document of the law of our land, I find nothing wrong with labelling non-US citizens who choose to break our law on our own land enemies. It is a form of foreign invasion. Their presence here is not sanctioned by the government and that makes them invaders. Invaders are an enemy I am trained and tasked to defend against.
And I think it is kind of obvious that a government project would be paid for in tax dollars.
I also said I saw the benifits in having a wall. I did not state that I supported it.
I do, however support it, but that does not in any way mean I see it as a plan that is going to be put into action. I support prohibition, but I understand that it will not ever be put into action again. The same goes for the wall: I support it, but I do not have enough faith to say that it would be implemented in a way that would solve the problem. If a wall is erected, it will probably be just a chain link fence.
RevDude
01-10-2006, 12:15 AM
What is the correlation between racial terms and the credibility of my posts? None, you are only using this to try to make me look like a racist, thus denoucing my arguement because in a fair debate you would lose so obviously, now counter the points that countered your previous post to the one I'm quoting right now or hold your silence forever in this thread.
I'm guessing you're very religious in a psychotic way, WTH stands for what the hell correct?
I think so, and so should you.
No. I would be glad to continue the debate, except with more mature people. Vchampian posses some interesting points, and he didn't even have to resort to immature name calling.
And no, I ain't that "religious in a psychotic way." I believe in God, but I don't go to church. Later.
Synch
01-10-2006, 12:30 AM
No. I would be glad to continue the debate, except with more mature people. Vchampian posses some interesting points, and he didn't even have to resort to immature name calling.
And no, I ain't that "religious in a psychotic way." I believe in God, but I don't go to church. Later.
I see you're still here.... :)
Personal question here, are you mexican?
I would continue the debate if for not a fact that every one of your points have been countered by vchampion.. come on.. I know there's more to cum from you.
RevDude
01-10-2006, 12:44 AM
I see you're still here.... :)
Personal question here, are you mexican?
I would continue the debate if for not a fact that every one of your points have been countered by vchampion.. come on.. I know there's more to cum from you.
Yes, you are correct. There is more to come from me, just not now. I don't have the time to formulate my points today. Though I promise you, I'll continue this debate another day. ;)
No. I would be glad to continue the debate, except with more mature people. Vchampian posses some interesting points, and he didn't even have to resort to immature name calling.
And no, I ain't that "religious in a psychotic way." I believe in God, but I don't go to church. Later.
Who called names? You pulling this maturity card without even trying to tackle his points is just a pretentious way of copping out of being proven wrong. Come on, man, grow a pair and deal with it. Not everyone's going to be so nice that they just concede to you being right. You're gonna have to deal with people rough around the edges sometime in life, so why not now?
Synch
01-10-2006, 12:50 AM
Yes, you are correct. There is more to come from me, just not now. I don't have the time to formulate my points today. Though I promise you, I'll continue this debate another day. ;)
Well I'll give you options, you can counter my point each at a time, if you know me, sometimes I don't finish my posts, and come back to responed to a single post.
RevDude
01-10-2006, 12:52 AM
Who called names? You pulling this maturity card without even trying to tackle his points is just a pretentious way of copping out of being proven wrong. Come on, man, grow a pair and deal with it. Not everyone's going to be so nice that they just concede to you being right. You're gonna have to deal with people rough around the edges sometime in life, so why not now?
What are you talking about? I'm pulling this maturity card because of a reason. I realize I haven't posted my counter points, and I haven't because I need some time to do so. I haven't read your posts yet so I don't know what sort of points you've made, but when I have time, I'll go back and see what I missed.
And c'mon. Obviously that's what a debate is about. I could be wrong and you could be wrong. If you present some good points that prove me wrong then good, I'm wrong. Again, I was just pointing that name calling because it caught my attention after rereading his posts (and skipping everyone elses because of neglegence, but I'll read your posts, don't worry).
Synch
01-10-2006, 01:06 AM
What are you talking about? I'm pulling this maturity card because of a reason. I realize I haven't posted my counter points, and I haven't because I need some time to do so. I haven't read your posts yet so I don't know what sort of points you've made, but when I have time, I'll go back and see what I missed.
And c'mon. Obviously that's what a debate is about. I could be wrong and you could be wrong. If you present some good points that prove me wrong then good, I'm wrong. Again, I was just pointing that name calling because it caught my attention after rereading his posts (and skipping everyone elses because of neglegence, but I'll read your posts, don't worry).
You pulled the maturity card out of self defense and desperation.
First off, as a defender of the Constitution, which is our central document of the law of our land, I find nothing wrong with labelling non-US citizens who choose to break our law on our own land enemies. It is a form of foreign invasion. Their presence here is not sanctioned by the government and that makes them invaders. Invaders are an enemy I am trained and tasked to defend against.
One could very seriously find it a problem, however, if one or more of those civilians, not soldiers, labeled as enemies is involved in an accidental shooting with our military. While that may seem like an extreme scenario, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities. And then what? We'll have one *huge* mess to clean up if something like that were to go down.
And yes, what they are doing is criminal, there is no arguing against that. But to use the military when law enforcement agents should be the tool of choice is over-reacting and quite simply setting people up for failure.
And I think it is kind of obvious that a government project would be paid for in tax dollars.
Obvious, yes, but those dollars have to come from somewhere. It's clear that the current administration will not raise taxes, even with conflicts going on in two countries costing many billions, that a building project even of this size won't spur them to do so. So one wonders what else they might cut budget-wise to find the money.
I also said I saw the benifits in having a wall. I did not state that I supported it.
Oh, I understand! I'm just exploring the pros and cons with you. :)
I do, however support it, but that does not in any way mean I see it as a plan that is going to be put into action. I support prohibition, but I understand that it will not ever be put into action again. The same goes for the wall: I support it, but I do not have enough faith to say that it would be implemented in a way that would solve the problem. If a wall is erected, it will probably be just a chain link fence.
I agree with you 100%. There's no real will to do the job properly, whether one supports the wall or not.
One could very seriously find it a problem, however, if one or more of those civilians, not soldiers, labeled as enemies is involved in an accidental shooting with our military. While that may seem like an extreme scenario, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities. And then what? We'll have one *huge* mess to clean up if something like that were to go down.
And yes, what they are doing is criminal, there is no arguing against that. But to use the military when law enforcement agents should be the tool of choice is over-reacting and quite simply setting people up for failure.
Obvious, yes, but those dollars have to come from somewhere. It's clear that the current administration will not raise taxes, even with conflicts going on in two countries costing many billions, that a building project even of this size won't spur them to do so. So one wonders what else they might cut budget-wise to find the money.
Oh, I understand! I'm just exploring the pros and cons with you. :)
I agree with you 100%. There's no real will to do the job properly, whether one supports the wall or not.
Just so we're clear: The National Guard can and is often used as law enforcement in extreme cases. Seeing as how this border is beyond the realm of what even state troopers could manage, the state national guard would be an appropriate supplement for what the troopers are unable to manage effectively.
Case in point of NG as law enforcement: New Orleans, New York City after 9/11, etc.
They can legally be called upon and activated at any moment to defend our borders.
This administration? I'm not sure. I do agree that the appropriate task would be to raise taxes, but as far as cutting other budgets, that's anyone's guess.
Duelly noted.
There is a way to do it properly, but as is the usual case, those in charge will take short cuts to save some dough and wind up really just wasting what they do spend on an ineffective plan. Going all the way, following through with it all, and going to the extreme of a huge-ass concrete wall with guard towers and watch-patrols and all that is a lot more expensive than a chain link fence (obviously), but where a chain link fence will keep having holes cut in it all over the border, a concrete wall will eventually pay for itself in the amount of money kept in our nation by taxes paid from incomes of legal US residents.
But as has become the standard, all officials will see is short-term, instant gratification schemes as opposed to long-term effective solutions. It's a pitty that most people in power are content with half-assing it and then taking a crap load of credit for "having done something when others didn't" when all they did was waste money on something useless and immediately ineffective.
emmy tee
01-10-2006, 01:28 PM
You pulled the maturity card out of self defense and desperation.
that or he realised he was having a debate with someone whose motive seems to be "keep the spicks out"- debates with rascists dont work, I tried it with some guy who said hitler was a good guy.
that or he realised he was having a debate with someone whose motive seems to be "keep the spicks out"- debates with rascists dont work, I tried it with some guy who said hitler was a good guy.
He did make Volkswagons...
Synch
01-10-2006, 02:29 PM
that or he realised he was having a debate with someone whose motive seems to be "keep the spicks out"- debates with rascists dont work, I tried it with some guy who said hitler was a good guy.
You're also saying that because you are unable to prove me wrong, instead you justify the denial of answering my points by calling me a racist and therefore by default you win? Pathetic.
You can easily prove his statement false by stating all the horrible things hitler committed.....
Oh yeah TFS, and the first jets.
You're also saying that because you are unable to prove me wrong, instead you justify the denial of answering my points by calling me a racist and therefore by default you win? Pathetic.
You can easily prove his statement false by stating all the horrible things hitler committed.....
Oh yeah TFS, and the first jets.
And if it wasn't for his mediocre and failed attempts to harness nuclear energy that we suspected were a serious threat even though they weren't, we would have never worked so hard on it.
So, if it wasn't for Hitler, we wouldn't have nuclear power.
vchampionl70
01-10-2006, 04:57 PM
Not everyone's going to be so nice that they just concede to you being right.
Very true. He's obviously not met Nocturnal or MPS. (Secretly I believe they are the same person.)
Asbestos Crayon
01-10-2006, 05:06 PM
We've been fucking around too long. We need the military to secure the border.
Not being possitive or negative to your possition, but everytime we have had military stationed at the border with Mexico, we have had a war with them.
RevDude
01-10-2006, 05:41 PM
You're also saying that because you are unable to prove me wrong, instead you justify the denial of answering my points by calling me a racist and therefore by default you win? Pathetic.
You can easily prove his statement false by stating all the horrible things hitler committed.....
Oh yeah TFS, and the first jets.
Okay. Now my turn. (I'll just forgive you're racist comments for now and pretend your mature enough to continue on).
Okay, so yeah. I can see where your coming from when you say that immigrants are importing their standard of living to the US and that our country is forced to provide for them for whatever reasons. But you must also look at the benefits that these immigrants bring to the country.
1. One mistake that is commonly made is that we fail to look at the long-term effects of immigration on our country. You've been talking about the short-term effects, but how do we really know that in the long run, they'll be a burden to this country. History has shown us that certain issues have been very controversial due to the negatives that are produced during that time period. But if we look back on that issue, say, 20 years later, we might come to see that the positives outweight the negatives.
2. With that reasoning, we can not say for sure how immigration will effect us in the long run. Still, I'm not saying that in the short-term immigration is bad for this country (I still want to argue against that), but that we must never forget that we cannot judge certain issues immediately, we must give it time to unfold so that we can get a clear picture of the situation.
3. In my opinion, in the long run, immigration is indeed beneficial to this country. For example, say a couple from Latin American come to live here indefinitely. Say they only have little or no education. Well, when they have their kids, they will have the opportunities their parents never had, an education. Statistics show that these American born children are more, if not, far more educated than their parents. They will have gone to high school, college, and graduated. This increase in college graduates with the tools necessary to compete in the world and create business for our country is good for us right? Nothing better than having an increase in the educated elite.
4. Now, you have to remember that if most of the immigrants that you and I are talking about came here during the 1980-2000 period their children are still probably too young to make a difference yet. So we must give another 10-20 years to see if indeed these Hispanic children are having a positive impact on our economy, status, and overall well-being.
5. Lastly, the short-term effects that I want to get to, will be for another day. I have to go now.
Just so we're clear: The National Guard can and is often used as law enforcement in extreme cases. Seeing as how this border is beyond the realm of what even state troopers could manage, the state national guard would be an appropriate supplement for what the troopers are unable to manage effectively.
Case in point of NG as law enforcement: New Orleans, New York City after 9/11, etc.
They can legally be called upon and activated at any moment to defend our borders.
That is true that the NG is used for domestic purposes for law enforcement duties, though it is for a relatively short period of time. For border control, you're looking at a mission with no real point in time for a final success to be achieved, which would further aggravate matters as it goes with Guard members leaving work for the field, employers having to make do without their employees, etc. And that doesn't even touch on the problem of the possibility of an accidental shooting. At least in Iraq, the people the military is looking for can be counted on to shoot back and thus prove themselves to be our enemies, with no problems of soldiers killing civilians. On our border, however, you're looking at all of them being civilians, criminal or otherwise.
This administration? I'm not sure. I do agree that the appropriate task would be to raise taxes, but as far as cutting other budgets, that's anyone's guess.
I see no real alternative if taxes won't be raised, and with mid-term elections coming, what better way to curry favor with the constituents then to show budget awareness as a platform issue.
There is a way to do it properly, but as is the usual case, those in charge will take short cuts to save some dough and wind up really just wasting what they do spend on an ineffective plan. Going all the way, following through with it all, and going to the extreme of a huge-ass concrete wall with guard towers and watch-patrols and all that is a lot more expensive than a chain link fence (obviously), but where a chain link fence will keep having holes cut in it all over the border, a concrete wall will eventually pay for itself in the amount of money kept in our nation by taxes paid from incomes of legal US residents.
But as has become the standard, all officials will see is short-term, instant gratification schemes as opposed to long-term effective solutions. It's a pitty that most people in power are content with half-assing it and then taking a crap load of credit for "having done something when others didn't" when all they did was waste money on something useless and immediately ineffective.
Exactly. Money will be wasted and big words spoken until the subject loses the ability to give politicians something to talk about and look like they're doing something for the ol' Red, White, and Blue.
Very true. He's obviously not met Nocturnal or MPS. (Secretly I believe they are the same person.)
Oh God no, don't even compare the two. MPS was either his way or you're trying to destroy the world and only he could stop you and his weapon of choice was incessant rambling about how bad anything not left was.
Noc believes strongly that the left is the lesser of the two evils, if you see them as that, and many times I do, and that's fine. What makes that fine is he's still able to concede that the right has some upsides that the left lacks. Plus he's able to take and make jokes about both sides in stride.
MPS was just unbearable and had a flagrant arrogance in his wording.
That is true that the NG is used for domestic purposes for law enforcement duties, though it is for a relatively short period of time. For border control, you're looking at a mission with no real point in time for a final success to be achieved, which would further aggravate matters as it goes with Guard members leaving work for the field, employers having to make do without their employees, etc. And that doesn't even touch on the problem of the possibility of an accidental shooting. At least in Iraq, the people the military is looking for can be counted on to shoot back and thus prove themselves to be our enemies, with no problems of soldiers killing civilians. On our border, however, you're looking at all of them being civilians, criminal or otherwise.
Well, you could turn it into a short-term deployment and give them a final goal by setting a time window to have recruited and qualified enough state troopers to be added to the task force so that they have the man-power to take over such a large operation. Once that time window/recruiting objective is complete on the state level (there are 3 states, on the border, bear in mind), the NG would be completely pulled out. Although during that time window, as more and more troopers are trained and qualified, they could do a gradual roll-over transition.
Just because they aren't all shooting does not mean that the law enforcement officials are barred from pulling their weapons on them and giving them orders to get on the ground to be taken into custody and then deported. And please keep in mind that this thread exists because some Mexicans were shooting at border patrolmen. There is a difference between shooting an illegal and tackling and flexi-cuffing one or tear-gasing a large group of them.
I see no real alternative if taxes won't be raised, and with mid-term elections coming, what better way to curry favor with the constituents then to show budget awareness as a platform issue.
Very true. We just have to wait and see if this wall option becomes the weapon of choice in the matter for which politicians, and then wait and see which politician states what kind of financing plan he has, be it more/raised taxes or budget cuts of other departments and funds.
Then we have to consider all of that in our voting.
Then we have to wait and see if they stick to their promised plan or pull a renig. $5 someone who does an all left or all right ticket in their vote claims to be shocked at their party's broken promises and even more shocked that those in support of the opposite party at shocked at their party's broken promises.
Exactly. Money will be wasted and big words spoken until the subject loses the ability to give politicians something to talk about and look like they're doing something for the ol' Red, White, and Blue.
Well, isn't that the attitude of a lot of people in the work place anyway? Look busy to keep your supervisor(s) off your back?
kevinsmith
01-10-2006, 07:16 PM
Not being possitive or negative to your possition, but everytime we have had military stationed at the border with Mexico, we have had a war with them.
Really? Never knew that. The interesting thing I just heard while I was at the Governor's state of the state adress today (AZ) was that she wanted to position Arizona National Guard troops at the border to help keep it secure.
Now I know we aren't going to have a war with Mexico. That would be stupid. But since I'm in a hypothetical kind of mood, you know what would be the scariest thing about that? Not their military, I'm not too worried about that. It's the millions of people who despite wanting to live here, remain loyal to Mexico that would cause all kinds of problems here in the states. Don't know why I think of this though, as I said, aint never gonna be no war that I can forsee. Thank God.
Synch
01-10-2006, 07:39 PM
Okay. Now my turn. (I'll just forgive you're racist comments for now and pretend your mature enough to continue on).
Okay, so yeah. I can see where your coming from when you say that immigrants are importing their standard of living to the US and that our country is forced to provide for them for whatever reasons. But you must also look at the benefits that these immigrants bring to the country.
1. One mistake that is commonly made is that we fail to look at the long-term effects of immigration on our country. You've been talking about the short-term effects, but how do we really know that in the long run, they'll be a burden to this country. History has shown us that certain issues have been very controversial due to the negatives that are produced during that time period. But if we look back on that issue, say, 20 years later, we might come to see that the positives outweight the negatives.
2. With that reasoning, we can not say for sure how immigration will effect us in the long run. Still, I'm not saying that in the short-term immigration is bad for this country (I still want to argue against that), but that we must never forget that we cannot judge certain issues immediately, we must give it time to unfold so that we can get a clear picture of the situation.
3. In my opinion, in the long run, immigration is indeed beneficial to this country. For example, say a couple from Latin American come to live here indefinitely. Say they only have little or no education. Well, when they have their kids, they will have the opportunities their parents never had, an education. Statistics show that these American born children are more, if not, far more educated than their parents. They will have gone to high school, college, and graduated. This increase in college graduates with the tools necessary to compete in the world and create business for our country is good for us right? Nothing better than having an increase in the educated elite.
4. Now, you have to remember that if most of the immigrants that you and I are talking about came here during the 1980-2000 period their children are still probably too young to make a difference yet. So we must give another 10-20 years to see if indeed these Hispanic children are having a positive impact on our economy, status, and overall well-being.
5. Lastly, the short-term effects that I want to get to, will be for another day. I have to go now.
You do not have the right to forgive anyone because I have no asked for forgiveness, and you do not have to right to forgive.
1. And what are the positives? It would've been much different 20 years ago, if the illegal immigration was this bad then, the wall would've already been up. The negative effects both short term and long term are bad for the economy, and government funds, but both times in the long term benefit huge corporations needing cheap labor. I'm confident to say most illegal immigrants are not smart enough to immigrate to the US legally, therefore their children ,who leech from government fund and welfare, regardless of the statistics on reader's digest saying second generation latino immigrants are well off, is because now they are able to work legally, ( minumum wage law anyone?). They will also created in the future unnecessary labor, and are the most likely canidates for welfare.
2. Your logic is based on the fact that predictions cannot be 100% correct, therefore we cannot do the most logical thing because it might not be the best thing to do. It' an irrefutable fact that short term wise illegal immigrants are bad for the economy, they're good for huge corporations in need of cheap labor. You can use that same insane logic of yours to justify slavery, the holocaust, etc. In hitler's eyes, in the long run, it would be a good decision to massacre and eliminate all the jews. (And we'll never know, because the US stopped it from happening by harboring millions of refugees and invaded Germany in WWII to win the war and rescure those in extermination camps.)
3. Bullshit logic, any kid in a third world country who comes to the US will have a better opportunity, why don't we let all the billions of farmers in China come to the US, for their children's will do a lot better than they will, Chinese students in general are more hardworking(not smarter, but more acustom to pain), than US students. Thousands of chinese kids commit suicide because they worked hard, made it into a good college, but can't afford to go, and so do parents knowing their kids cannot go to a college they deserve to go because of the high price.
Of course illegal immigrants will bring up the college graduate numbers. Bring more amounts of people[from any country,race, as long as you don't specifically pick out the most unintelligent ones] to the student population, it'll grow definitely because there's more fucking people, but the % will decrease.( High school students who become college graduates[not accepted, graduated(affirmative action won't help the mexicans there. :lol: ].). Yes there will be more graduates, but there are those who will not graduate from college, those who drop out of high school, and those who live on welfare! The number of offsprings of illegal immigrants that don't go to college and don't even graduate from high school far outnumber, far far outnumber[20-1], the kids of illegal immigrants who do get a college degree.
4. There are still jews who are from the WWII era living today, let's kill more of them and wait another 10-20 to see if it'll have a positive effect on the world in general.
5. Illegal immigrants lower the living standard of the rest of the legal immigrants by giving the government more welfare, benefits, education, and political strain. The legal citizens and immigrants pay more tax and recieve less benefit from the tax they paid. Money is taken out of the country and brought into mexico, how could that be possibly good for the economy?
This Bill didn't pass, did it? (http://journals.aol.com/dawncrawford71/DawnCrawford/entries/1658)
It would've stopped illegals from gaining citizenship.
"'If you're coming here illegally, you shouldn't be benefiting from it,' Miller said. "If I rob a bank, and left some money to my kids, should they be allowed to keep it?'
About 1 million people enter the United States from other countries legally each year, and another estimated 500,000 cross the border undocumented, according to the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which supports the bill.
The 14th Amendment grants citizenship to individuals born in the United States. However, the 1868 ratification of the amendment was intended to give citizenship to freed slaves, according to federation spokesman Ira Mehlman.
"It was intended to apply to a specific group of people it wasn't likely that people could travel thousands of miles to give birth to a child in a different country,' Mehlman said.
At least 10 million undocumented immigrants live in the United States; one-third of them in California.
Did I mention the high school dropout rate in California is 1/3 of all students?
Graduation Rate for California by Race, 01-02 (http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/900794_who_graduates_CA.pdf)
Hispanics make up 45% of the students in California, 40% drop out rate.
There's an gradual increase(small increase) in the last couple of years, can be explained because they are third generation of illegal immigrants.
By your logic, we should immigrate lots and lots of Asians into this country, their graduation rate is far greater than hispanics, a 1/8 advantage over whites, the second most graduated ethnic group. 83.5%
"If crossing the border is considered a crime, the crime that was committed 200 years ago for people who wanted a better future for their family, I'm guilty of that.'
This dipshit who spoke against the bill should study some law. No indian nation has staked parts of North America, when the settlers came here 200 fucking years ago, it was a disputed political state. There was no official country in the US, lots of wars going on about land claims, etc, however currently the US and north america is in a very stable political state, the land is 100% of the US without a doubt, there's a clear line that divides the US and mexico and canada..
http://www.migrationinformation.org/images/spot2_feb05.gif
Well, you could turn it into a short-term deployment and give them a final goal by setting a time window to have recruited and qualified enough state troopers to be added to the task force so that they have the man-power to take over such a large operation. Once that time window/recruiting objective is complete on the state level (there are 3 states, on the border, bear in mind), the NG would be completely pulled out. Although during that time window, as more and more troopers are trained and qualified, they could do a gradual roll-over transition.
Just because they aren't all shooting does not mean that the law enforcement officials are barred from pulling their weapons on them and giving them orders to get on the ground to be taken into custody and then deported. And please keep in mind that this thread exists because some Mexicans were shooting at border patrolmen. There is a difference between shooting an illegal and tackling and flexi-cuffing one or tear-gasing a large group of them.
I understand, but I'm considering a worse-case scenario where communication breaks completely down and a civilian gets shot on the border. And if the military was to be severely limited in it's ROE to the point of tying it's hands, it'd defeat the entire point of having them there to begin with.
Though, as you said, a short period of time with a date where civilian law enforcement can take over is definitely the key to even *thinking* about having military involvement.
Well, isn't that the attitude of a lot of people in the work place anyway? Look busy to keep your supervisor(s) off your back?
Quite correct, though it does seem like our elected officials in Washington are the true masters of that feat. :lol:
I understand, but I'm considering a worse-case scenario where communication breaks completely down and a civilian gets shot on the border. And if the military was to be severely limited in it's ROE to the point of tying it's hands, it'd defeat the entire point of having them there to begin with.
That's how they subdue and detain any Iraqi civilians that create a disturbance but are unarmed and even insurgents if they can help it. Have one or more people train their weapons on them and command them to lay on the ground and all that other stuff, and then one cautiously cuffs them.
The same would work for illegals and smugglers. If they run, it becomes a chase just like any other police chase. If they choose not to cooperate, they are subject to be brought down by force, and hopefully for them, it is not decided that the force needed is lethal. But if you break the law in America and choose to be uncooperative when enforcement catches you, you run that risk and it is all on you for choosing to be uncooperative.
Though, as you said, a short period of time with a date where civilian law enforcement can take over is definitely the key to even *thinking* about having military involvement.
Exactly. Immediately deploy them and keep them there in some form while gradually phasing them out as more and more of a swelling state trooper force becomes capable of doing so. Currently, the state troopers can't, and until they can, a supplementary, but definitely temporary presence of NG troopers is not unreasonable.
Quite correct, though it does seem like our elected officials in Washington are the true masters of that feat. :lol:
Would you rather vote for an amateur?:rolleyes:
Manhoe
01-10-2006, 09:49 PM
why is everyone so anti-illegal immigrant. immigrants work really hard because they immigrated for another chance. they usually hold like 2 jobs. plus they take the jobs that no one wants, i dont really understand the problem. i think its good that the mexican mafia shot at the border patrol
MattyB
01-10-2006, 11:48 PM
We don't need a wall. You know how bad that will look for us. If indeed a wall were built on the Southern border than it would make sense to have one on the Canadian border right?
Instead of an ineffective wall, we need an effective program that would allow those willing to work here, come here safely. They wouldn't have to go through the whole legal process (very difficult and time consuming), instead this process would be very quick and efficient. Both our country and Mexicans would benefit.
"laws to screw illegal immigrants"?. No, we need laws to ensure their human rights while here in the U.S.. But of course, we need to solve this flow of illegal immigration, it's not safe for us.
I welcome not only more Mexicans, but also more of every culture too. That's what this country is about right? Mexicans, Japanese, Europeans, Arabs, we open our doors to everyone.
They don't go through the process of becoming citizens, therefore they shouldn't be here. And that goes to anyone you mentioned.
Devastation
01-10-2006, 11:50 PM
why is everyone so anti-illegal immigrant. immigrants work really hard because they immigrated for another chance. they usually hold like 2 jobs.
Because they are illegal.
If they would at least get a fucking visa or green card, I wouldn't have a problem.
But they don't.
They jump the border, and by doing that, they are criminals.
plus they take the jobs that no one wants, i dont really understand the problem. Just because the job seems undesirable doesn't mean an American won't take it.
i think its good that the mexican mafia shot at the border patrol
How is that good? Not only could they have hurt people, they are tightening the tensions already between us.
Personally, I wouldn't mind bombing the shit out of Mexico right now, ain't nothing over there except whocares and cam1lo, and we'll let them live.
Synch
01-11-2006, 12:48 AM
why is everyone so anti-illegal immigrant. immigrants work really hard because they immigrated for another chance. they usually hold like 2 jobs. plus they take the jobs that no one wants, i dont really understand the problem. i think its good that the mexican mafia shot at the border patrol
GTFO :preachon:
RevDude
01-11-2006, 02:33 AM
You do not have the right to forgive anyone because I have no asked for forgiveness, and you do not have to right to forgive.
1. And what are the positives? It would've been much different 20 years ago, if the illegal immigration was this bad then, the wall would've already been up. The negative effects both short term and long term are bad for the economy, and government funds, but both times in the long term benefit huge corporations needing cheap labor. I'm confident to say most illegal immigrants are not smart enough to immigrate to the US legally, therefore their children ,who leech from government fund and welfare, regardless of the statistics on reader's digest saying second generation latino immigrants are well off, is because now they are able to work legally, ( minumum wage law anyone?). They will also created in the future unnecessary labor, and are the most likely canidates for welfare.
2. Your logic is based on the fact that predictions cannot be 100% correct, therefore we cannot do the most logical thing because it might not be the best thing to do. It' an irrefutable fact that short term wise illegal immigrants are bad for the economy, they're good for huge corporations in need of cheap labor. You can use that same insane logic of yours to justify slavery, the holocaust, etc. In hitler's eyes, in the long run, it would be a good decision to massacre and eliminate all the jews. (And we'll never know, because the US stopped it from happening by harboring millions of refugees and invaded Germany in WWII to win the war and rescure those in extermination camps.)
3. Bullshit logic, any kid in a third world country who comes to the US will have a better opportunity, why don't we let all the billions of farmers in China come to the US, for their children's will do a lot better than they will, Chinese students in general are more hardworking(not smarter, but more acustom to pain), than US students. Thousands of chinese kids commit suicide because they worked hard, made it into a good college, but can't afford to go, and so do parents knowing their kids cannot go to a college they deserve to go because of the high price.
Of course illegal immigrants will bring up the college graduate numbers. Bring more amounts of people[from any country,race, as long as you don't specifically pick out the most unintelligent ones] to the student population, it'll grow definitely because there's more fucking people, but the % will decrease.( High school students who become college graduates[not accepted, graduated(affirmative action won't help the mexicans there. :lol: ].). Yes there will be more graduates, but there are those who will not graduate from college, those who drop out of high school, and those who live on welfare! The number of offsprings of illegal immigrants that don't go to college and don't even graduate from high school far outnumber, far far outnumber[20-1], the kids of illegal immigrants who do get a college degree.
4. There are still jews who are from the WWII era living today, let's kill more of them and wait another 10-20 to see if it'll have a positive effect on the world in general.
5. Illegal immigrants lower the living standard of the rest of the legal immigrants by giving the government more welfare, benefits, education, and political strain. The legal citizens and immigrants pay more tax and recieve less benefit from the tax they paid. Money is taken out of the country and brought into mexico, how could that be possibly good for the economy?
This Bill didn't pass, did it? (http://journals.aol.com/dawncrawford71/DawnCrawford/entries/1658)
It would've stopped illegals from gaining citizenship.
Did I mention the high school dropout rate in California is 1/3 of all students?
Graduation Rate for California by Race, 01-02 (http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/900794_who_graduates_CA.pdf)
Hispanics make up 45% of the students in California, 40% drop out rate.
There's an gradual increase(small increase) in the last couple of years, can be explained because they are third generation of illegal immigrants.
By your logic, we should immigrate lots and lots of Asians into this country, their graduation rate is far greater than hispanics, a 1/8 advantage over whites, the second most graduated ethnic group. 83.5%
This dipshit who spoke against the bill should study some law. No indian nation has staked parts of North America, when the settlers came here 200 fucking years ago, it was a disputed political state. There was no official country in the US, lots of wars going on about land claims, etc, however currently the US and north america is in a very stable political state, the land is 100% of the US without a doubt, there's a clear line that divides the US and mexico and canada..
http://www.migrationinformation.org/images/spot2_feb05.gif
Fine. I don't forgive you. Say whatever comes to that little head of yours, just don't be calling me names afterwards.
1. Now that's BS. What!? Why would their children be leeching off our services huh? They have totally different lifestyles from what their immigrant parents had. They were born here, and are fortunate enough to be attending our schools while living rather comfortable lives. By attending our schools, they will have much more successful lives and careers their parents would have never dreamed of. So get it through your head, their children are not living in the same conditions their parents were living in!
2. See, but when you use my logic with rediculous shit like Hitler it just doesn't apply to that. Hitler was a murderous madman and there was no question that he needed to be stopped, IMMEDIATELY. With the issue of immigration, no one is dying, no one is feeling pain, immigrants are happy working here (even if they are in deplorable conditions), at least its better than not having a job in Mexico. And like you said, corporations are benefiting from this cheap labor just like any other corporation that has OUTSOURCED their jobs. Just look at Microsoft's customer service, hmmm, what do you know, outsourced.
3. I feel for those Chinese kids. I would more than anything wish that they had the same opportunities that immigrants from Latin America were having. But unfortunately they are all away on the other side. But I'm not saying we should bring all those people in, its just rediculous. The same with Latinos.
Okay, let me just set one thing straight before I go on. I am not arguing for the opening of the borders for more illegals to pour in to this country. I do however argue that their should be some sort of Guest Worker Program for this people willing to work because without a doubt, we need them. This program would not only apply to Latinos, but to people around the world wanting to work here. I am also arguing that the immigrants that we have within our borders now are beneficial, but again, I am not arguing for more illegals to come in. I agree that we have to solve this problem immediately.
4. Okay, now I want to reveal more of my identity. At first I was reluctant because I didn't know what sort of idiots I would find here (you won't believe the trash that exists in so many forums). So far so good, just plain debating and arguing. So here it is:
Yes, I am a Mexican-American. Second generation immigrant or whatever you wish to call me. I am also a proud American, and absolutely disagree with the few Latinos who say stupid shit about this country (like giving California and Texas back to Mexico). They're idiots and don't represent the many Hispanics who truly want to make a difference here, for all Americans. But I am also proud to be of Mexican heritage, but don't think that because of my background, that that's the only reason I'm saying what I'm saying. I believe what I believe because I know it to be true from my experience.
tabber
01-11-2006, 07:05 PM
I do however argue that their should be some sort of Guest Worker Program for this people willing to work because without a doubt, we need them.
That's right. We have 7,600,000 unemployed, more on welfare but we need illegal workers.
What we need is a tightening up of the welfare system and severe penalties against companies that don't pay living wages but instead opt to hire illegal labor.
The problem isn't the number of workers, it's the level of the wages.
Sketcher
01-11-2006, 07:46 PM
That's right. We have 7,600,000 unemployed, more on welfare but we need illegal workers.
What we need is a tightening up of the welfare system and severe penalties against companies that don't pay living wages but instead opt to hire illegal labor.
The problem isn't the number of workers, it's the level of the wages.
Exactly. By comming here, illegal immigrants actually lower the wages. Why hire an American citizen for $5.50 or more when you can hire an illegal for $2.00? If there were no illegals to hire, those wages would raise in an attempt to get workers.
Synch
01-11-2006, 07:47 PM
Fine. I don't forgive you. Say whatever comes to that little head of yours, just don't be calling me names afterwards.
1. Now that's BS. What!? Why would their children be leeching off our services huh? They have totally different lifestyles from what their immigrant parents had. They were born here, and are fortunate enough to be attending our schools while living rather comfortable lives. By attending our schools, they will have much more successful lives and careers their parents would have never dreamed of. So get it through your head, their children are not living in the same conditions their parents were living in!
2. See, but when you use my logic with rediculous shit like Hitler it just doesn't apply to that. Hitler was a murderous madman and there was no question that he needed to be stopped, IMMEDIATELY. With the issue of immigration, no one is dying, no one is feeling pain, immigrants are happy working here (even if they are in deplorable conditions), at least its better than not having a job in Mexico. And like you said, corporations are benefiting from this cheap labor just like any other corporation that has OUTSOURCED their jobs. Just look at Microsoft's customer service, hmmm, what do you know, outsourced.
I'm using common sense and economic analysis while you're just point out a little hint of doubt, we are know nowadays it's bad for the jews to be slaughtered, inhuman and wrong, but how do you know it was a bad thing for the future? short term wise it looked bad, but it was stopped so we'll never know what happen. If the US used your logic, they would've waited 20 years to see all the jews die out and then see what happens, if the positive in the future outweighs the past bad.
3. I feel for those Chinese kids. I would more than anything wish that they had the same opportunities that immigrants from Latin America were having. But unfortunately they are all away on the other side. But I'm not saying we should bring all those people in, its just rediculous. The same with Latinos.
Okay, let me just set one thing straight before I go on. I am not arguing for the opening of the borders for more illegals to pour in to this country. I do however argue that their should be some sort of Guest Worker Program for this people willing to work because without a doubt, we need them. This program would not only apply to Latinos, but to people around the world wanting to work here. I am also arguing that the immigrants that we have within our borders now are beneficial, but again, I am not arguing for more illegals to come in. I agree that we have to solve this problem immediately.
4. Okay, now I want to reveal more of my identity. At first I was reluctant because I didn't know what sort of idiots I would find here (you won't believe the trash that exists in so many forums). So far so good, just plain debating and arguing. So here it is:
Yes, I am a Mexican-American. Second generation immigrant or whatever you wish to call me. I am also a proud American, and absolutely disagree with the few Latinos who say stupid shit about this country (like giving California and Texas back to Mexico). They're idiots and don't represent the many Hispanics who truly want to make a difference here, for all Americans. But I am also proud to be of Mexican heritage, but don't think that because of my background, that that's the only reason I'm saying what I'm saying. I believe what I believe because I know it to be true from my experience.
1. I never said their children would be living the same lifestyle their parents were, below minumum wage. Their children will make lower contributions to society and the government in taxesthan the average american. I said what's the point of importing children who on average will perform below the average US student? None, we want immigrants to be able to enrich this country and highten our standards, not lower it. It's no doubt the average hispanic performs below average, so why should those who came here illegally be able to lower our education statistics? Please don't bring up the fact that blacks are in poorer conditions than latinos in the country in comparison of education, because we forcefully brought them here legally during the period they were brought here, and they've lived here legally for 400 years now. If a farmer has a farm farming pigs, they are living under the same condition, but why should the farmer bring in wild pigs, those who eat more food than the rest of the pigs, but provides less meat? There is no reason to do that.
Allowing illegals to freely come here will bring down the country, degrade our education system, make the gap between the richer and the poorer bigger, and once they get voting rights, latinos will rule this country. :dunce:
Regarding oursourcing, same thing with pig analogy, the farmer is feeding other pigs from other farms in exchange for meat, but once the meat quality goes down or the meat stops coming, the supply of feed is gone, however we cannot get rid of these illegals by the millions! Once they are here, hundreds of thousands are leeching off welfare, the farmer has to feed the pigs in his own barn, those he can't get rid of.
2. The economy is feeling the pain, all Americans are feeling the burden of illegal immigrants, now this is why this situation is a perfect comparison to the holocaust. The Germans were very happy to get rid of the jews,(benefiting party), they were able to take all the property and money of the jews. Illegal immigrants are happy they got to the US and illegal births are here(benefiting group, tax dollars given to them from welfare), now losing group during the holocaust, the jews, being killed, their properties and anything they hold of value will be taken away. The legal immigrants and citizens are the losing party, losing their children's educational standards to affirmative action, their tax dollars being wasted to feed illegals.
3. I don't, this country is the leading country in the world currently, with the best technology, the best economy(well not currently but still), we want the best here, so as a country our IQ, GDP, will be higher than any other country by producing more and being more efficient, my parents went to the top 2 universities in China to get in the US, both with masters, not just cross the border. If the quality of the products we are bringing in in this country is lower the than national average, then we are degrading this country as a whole, slowly and slowly.
4. You didn't answer this one.
5. So You're the descendants of an illegal then?(prepares to phone FBI).
These statements are backed up by the charts and census report I linked in my previous previous post.
RevDude
01-11-2006, 11:35 PM
1. I never said their children would be living the same lifestyle their parents were, below minumum wage. Their children will make lower contributions to society and the government in taxesthan the average american. I said what's the point of importing children who on average will perform below the average US student? None, we want immigrants to be able to enrich this country and highten our standards, not lower it. It's no doubt the average hispanic performs below average, so why should those who came here illegally be able to lower our education statistics? Please don't bring up the fact that blacks are in poorer conditions than latinos in the country in comparison of education, because we forcefully brought them here legally during the period they were brought here, and they've lived here legally for 400 years now. If a farmer has a farm farming pigs, they are living under the same condition, but why should the farmer bring in wild pigs, those who eat more food than the rest of the pigs, but provides less meat? There is no reason to do that.
Allowing illegals to freely come here will bring down the country, degrade our education system, make the gap between the richer and the poorer bigger, and once they get voting rights, latinos will rule this country. :dunce:
Regarding oursourcing, same thing with pig analogy, the farmer is feeding other pigs from other farms in exchange for meat, but once the meat quality goes down or the meat stops coming, the supply of feed is gone, however we cannot get rid of these illegals by the millions! Once they are here, hundreds of thousands are leeching off welfare, the farmer has to feed the pigs in his own barn, those he can't get rid of.
2. The economy is feeling the pain, all Americans are feeling the burden of illegal immigrants, now this is why this situation is a perfect comparison to the holocaust. The Germans were very happy to get rid of the jews,(benefiting party), they were able to take all the property and money of the jews. Illegal immigrants are happy they got to the US and illegal births are here(benefiting group, tax dollars given to them from welfare), now losing group during the holocaust, the jews, being killed, their properties and anything they hold of value will be taken away. The legal immigrants and citizens are the losing party, losing their children's educational standards to affirmative action, their tax dollars being wasted to feed illegals.
3. I don't, this country is the leading country in the world currently, with the best technology, the best economy(well not currently but still), we want the best here, so as a country our IQ, GDP, will be higher than any other country by producing more and being more efficient, my parents went to the top 2 universities in China to get in the US, both with masters, not just cross the border. If the quality of the products we are bringing in in this country is lower the than national average, then we are degrading this country as a whole, slowly and slowly.
4. You didn't answer this one.
5. So You're the descendants of an illegal then?(prepares to phone FBI).
These statements are backed up by the charts and census report I linked in my previous previous post.
I can't help but notice that you keep mentioning this whole issue about illegals using up the welfare system. Where exactly is the proof that indeed they use our welfare services more than poor American citizens. I would imagine that the numbers are much lower than those for the low income citizens right? I mean, they're illegal so it's much harder for them to apply for such services. Also, keep in mind that there are many illegal immigrants who do indeed contribute in tax dollars, but again, I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but they do exist.
2. Obviously the farmer has some reason for bringing in these so called "wild" ("hard-working" in my view) pigs. Because they are cheaper and efficient. Maybe the positive results from these pigs outweigh the amount of meat they eat don't you think. I mean, why else would companies hire illegals, because their cheap. But if your refering to the farmer as our government, then I really can't explain to you why they aren't doing anything to stop illegals from pouring in (maybe there's a good reason) or its just they got other more important issues to worry about at the moment, IRAQ anyone?
3. I would tell you that illegals giving birth to children here is not automatically leading to welfare consumption. Many illegals are able to cope with children despite having low paying jobs. How is this possible you ask? They come from a country where they've had to work hard, that doesn't change when they come here. My parents had very low paying jobs, my mother gave birth to the three of us and never has she had to use government services, EVER. Somehow they managed to raise us with their house cleaning and restaurant jobs, through hard work and careful management of their financial earnings.
4. I share that same view with you too. I believe the U.S. is and should continue to lead in research and technology. It not only is the leading democratic nation, but one that wants to maintain peace (although I do believe that this government committed mistakes, but that's another topic). But again, the children of immigrants residing in the U.S. have a better education than their parents. Who knows, these kids could join with all the bright minds of Chinese, Russians, Africans, Irish, Arabs, etc to make this nation even better than it is now.
My parents were not as fortunate as your parents. I respect yours for the hard work they had to go through to attain such a degree, but most likely your parents were living in better conditions then mine. Mine were living in poverty in Mexico, hardly any food, having to use cardboards as blankets as children, and so on. They couldn't go on to attend high school because they had to help my grandparents with the chores. My dad always tells me how he would have loved to go to school, but he just couldn't, he had to help his family. It makes me sad everytime I hear their stories but happy to hear that they could find a glimpse of light here in this wonderful nation of ours.
Once here, they did the best to take care of us and norture us. We were living pratically below the nation average of low-income nonetheless that didn't stop my brothers and I from going to school, getting the grades and scholarships necessary to attend one of the best Universities in the U.S. Just knowing that my parents never had the chance for such an opportunity pushes us to attain that ambition in life, to become successful people with a degree in, I don't know, business, computer science, politics, whatever.
And I think that that is the case for many second generation immigrants like myself that have that strong ambition to make their parents proud by striving for that success their parents never had as children.
Lol. You're funny, I like that. Sorry to break it to you, they're naturalized citizens now.
Oh, about the graphs. Yeah, so Asians and Whites are doing better than Hispanics and Blacks, but the situation is improving for those lower groups. This just falls dead on with what I've been saying, the children, grandchildren, etc of these immigrants are doing better and better. They just need more successful Latinos or Blacks to look up to, apart from their immigrant parents.
tabber
01-11-2006, 11:51 PM
I can't help but notice that you keep mentioning this whole issue about illegals using up the welfare system. Where exactly is the proof that indeed they use our welfare services more than poor American citizens. I would imagine that the numbers are much lower than those for the low income citizens right? I mean, they're illegal so it's much harder for them to apply for such services.
They shouldn't be receiving any of those services. Most legal Americans shouldn't be using those services.
Also, keep in mind that there are many illegal immigrants who do indeed contribute in tax dollars, but again, I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but they do exist.
You're talking about sales tax which doesn't come close to what legal citizens contribute.
2. Obviously the farmer has some reason for bringing in these so called "wild" ("hard-working" in my view) pigs. Because they are cheaper and efficient. Maybe the positive results from these pigs outweigh the amount of meat they eat don't you think. I mean, why else would companies hire illegals, because their cheap. But if your refering to the farmer as our government, then I really can't explain to you why they aren't doing anything to stop illegals from pouring in (maybe there's a good reason) or its just they got other more important issues to worry about at the moment, IRAQ anyone?
No, it's because Republicans are in bed with Big Business. Take away their virtual slave labor, don't count on getting re-elected. And the biggest problem isn't the amount of government services illegals use, it's the jobs they take away from legal US citizens. It's the lowering of the wages for legal US citizens.
3. I would tell you that illegals giving birth to children here is not automatically leading to welfare consumption. Many illegals are able to cope with children despite having low paying jobs. How is this possible you ask? They come from a country where they've had to work hard, that doesn't change when they come here. My parents had very low paying jobs, my mother gave birth to the three of us and never has she had to use government services, EVER. Somehow they managed to raise us with their house cleaning and restaurant jobs, through hard work and careful management of their financial earnings.
Three kids on $500 a month? I don't think so. Here's where your credibility is wavering. The illegal worker works for the wages he does not because he's some type of superman, but because he sends the money down to economically depressed Mexico, where someone can have a very comfortable life on $500 a month, as pathetic as that is.
4. I share that same view with you too. I believe the U.S. is and should continue to lead in research and technology. It not only is the leading democratic nation, but one that wants to maintain peace (although I do believe that this government committed mistakes, but that's another topic). But again, the children of immigrants residing in the U.S. have a better education than their parents. Who knows, these kids could join with all the bright minds of Chinese, Russians, Africans, Irish, Arabs, etc to make this nation even better than it is now.
The only difference is that the Chinese, Russians, Africans, Irish and Arabs you mentioned most probably came here legally. Besides the fact that illegal citizens cause a host of problems that naturalized ones don't, isn't it a bit racist