anti war

[deagler]

I would like any person that is truly against the war in Iraq to listen to this
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=anti-war-convo.mp3
and answer the question that Mohammed poses. If you can answer that, please then tell me what good thousands of people can do while blocking traffic at major intersections in New York, Austin, and i'm sure various other cities across this country. The troops will NOT be removed from Iraq until complete disarmament, no matter what protests might take place. Someone brought up a good point in another thread about sending the Statue of Liberty back. Maybe you should be rallying for that instead. I attend the University of Texas and have to put up with more protests and rallies than damn near anyone else in the world. I understand that you have a right to protest the war, but do you think it's good for troops moral to see news about tens of thousands protesting? Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Yes civilians will die as a result of this war. Yes it will cost the US billions of dollars. I even saw a sign on campus stating "COST OF WAR= $200 BILLION". My response would be, "COST OF FREEDOM AND PEACE=PRICELESS". please feel free to share your opinion either way, and please no bashing in this thread.

[minia]

Dude, I live in Austin as well and go to UT and I feel your pain.I swear to god, people that live here just love to protest.......anything.....

[chris_78660]

its not just here (fellow austenite) but in other super cities such as San Francisco, Chicago, and New York. its getting to the point where the protestors are DISRUPTING THE PEACE and therefore being counter productive...why does there always have to be a cause to fight? why can we not unite and say "we are proud of our country, we are proud to be a part of a democratic government, and we are proud to be an American"?

[Unregistered]

Ah, It's nice to finally see a forum where people aren't dissing Bush and all anti-war like a lot of dumb ignorant people are around here in Maryland.
The thing I can't believe is after several of our soldiers were executed by Iraqi's, The anti-war people still feel we shouldn't be at war. I agree with this called I heard on some show that said If you don't agree with our government then get the hell out of america and move to Mexico or something.



~Vertigo

[bulldawg]

Well we have another war upon us and are anti-war geeks have come out of the wood work. Like usual these people are against war and violence. Hmm, latetly it hasn't seem that way. We are having as much violence here then in Iraq. We are fighting for your right to prostest and free speech. But you people still don't get it. All these "Acces of Evil" are waiting for people like you to bring down the american people and are soldiers. You make us dought are leaders and ways of foreign policies. In away i see you as scum. I would call you traitors but it's your freedom of speech right. WELL I HOPE YOU THINK ABOUT HOW FREE YOU WHERE TO TALK ABOUT ANTI WAR IF EVER ANOTHER ATTACK ON AMERICA WOULD HAPPEN, hope never happens, GOD FORBID. I hope i do not see you on the streets being all patriotic. You make me sick!!!. I fight to preserve this country and i hate seing such a disaster happen. But people who become patriotic because they don't want to be left out, then later on protest against war have no place in this country. Can't you see that Iraq doesn't care about you and are anti war ways. They don't even follow the Geneva convention. Executing GI's and parading then like trophies. We take care of their prisonners, give then water food. They can all go to hell.

To all are GI's good luck the rest of us are with u.


quote:
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A pint of sweat will save a gallon of blood
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quote:
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May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't
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quote:
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The soldier is the army
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Gen. Patton

[Unregistered]

These protests that are taking place in various cities across the country are proof that these anti-war protestors hypocricy. They proclaim peace, yet they disrupt it without remorse. These protestors face perpetual failure ahead of them. America has begun invading. Period. The best analogy I can think of is a lunch room fight. America and Iraq have been shoving for quite awhile now. We have thrown a punch. Do you expect us to stop, leaving business we started unfinished? That is not an option. We must go through this 100%. For those of you who are anti-war, do something productive, like praying for the men who are fighting to liberate an oppressed country.

[automaton]

I was watching the news the other day and the anti-war protesters were beating this guy up..... yeah, peace *dripping sarcasm* Anyway, it struck me that these same people who are screaming bloody murder about us being the "aggressor" are the same ones who, on the anniversary of the holocaust, were crying about how America waited so long to get involved in the World Wars. Can't they make up their minds??
They say "no war for oil", would we spend 80-200 BILLION DOLLARS for a a few cents cheaper gas????? They say Saddam didn't have enough time to disarm, are they forgetting that he was originally told to disarm OVER 10 YEARS AGO???? This time he wasn't told to DISARM or we'd attack, all we told him to do was disclose his weapon supply, WHICH HE DIDN'T!!! They say that by "disobeying" the UN we are opening the door for other countries to disregard the wishes of the UN, WHAT WAS SADDAM DOING???? And there are so many more arguments.... when do you say enough is enough?
I honestly wasn't sure just how "just" this war was until I saw the headline on an Iraqi newspaper. "WAR AT LAST!!" The Iraqi people WANT us to liberate them! (the gist of the article was that they were happy that we were "dethroning Saddam") This war may be President Bush's personal vendetta, but that does NOT make it wrong! I think this is the kind of country I want my nieces and nephews (I have no children) to grow up in! A country that I was afraid was going to become irrelivant from our own complacency. Now I see hope for us. Not because we are warring but because we are standing up for a people who can't stand up for themselves. To the greater good of ALL humanity!

[¤¤MêRçürݤ¤]

War fucking sux...and that's final!:mad:

[deagler]

war sux. how deep. did that take you a while to think up? yes, it sucks. if everyone in the world could just hold hands and sing songs, we wouldn't have to go to war. but there are assholes like saddam who will parade innocent women and children to bomb sites and needlessly sacrifice their lives. if he would do that to his own people, imagine what he would do to you or me. please don't post unless you have something intelligent to say.

[deagler]

congrats mercury, you are no longer the most retarted person in the world.
osama, if you will kindly send me your address, we can discuss this in person.
thanks

[¤¤MêRçürݤ¤]

It is unjust, moreso ignorant, to rally a nation to solve a personal antipathy for Saddam's attempt @ an assassination towards bush senior (Bush's father) years a back.
Secondly,Bush is not 'Lookin out for the world'....it's just a self-satisfaction thing..believe me...the man's face alone gives him away...it's vivid!
Note this :
1.AMERICA IS NOT ..."THE WORLD"
2.GOD DOES NOT BLESS AMERICA ...ALONE
3.AMERICA IS NOT THE GODFATHER OF... THE WORLD
4.AND LASTLY,BUSH IS NOT THE SAVIOUR OR SECOND
COMING OF CHRIST...

Saddam was not a 'threat' for 12 years...if he was plannin' to attack America in due course however, then all Americans had to do was prepare themselves thoroughly of an attack they thought was 'impending'..station the soldiers @ those bases...and await what was to be...
There was really no need to attack...
Yes they did give Saddam an his sonz an option to vacate the country in 48hrs...But in my opinion,what audacity did 'Mr' Bush have to make those demands!?...Did he really think that Saddam, who worked all his life to be a 'dictator' and tyrantly rule Iraq would step down from his pedestal? and furthermore give up without a fight?...That befuddles me..hmmm..For someone 'supposedly' that smart...he's that stupid..

OK... i dont want to babble nemore 'crap' to the Pro-war ppl..but I just wanted to share something that I heard an American say on tv tonite :

'It iz better we eradicate Saddam before he gets to us first.....,It's better off that we lose a few hundred foreigners (Iraqis) than thousands here (America)"
How selfish is that!!!...
So, like I was saying, war fucking sux...don't underestimate me!!!

...Up The Irons...
..¤¤MêRçürݤ¤..
:mad:

[¤¤MêRçürݤ¤]

Here are some questions you should be asking your shameless self:

1. Do you think that a war would ''just take out Saddam''?
2. You don't think that it would result in the deaths of millions of innocent people?
3. Are you 100% sure that after this war and after the loss of millions of innocent lives that Saddam will no longer be alive or in governance?
4. Don't you think that a war would weeken the economy of the world, country by country, hence creating a greater challenge for everyday living?

Personally I think that Bush should be tied-up and burnt to death very slowly. His body shall be burnt to ashes in this world while his soul shall be put to fuel the fires of the afterlife.

[¤¤MêRçürݤ¤]

....Oh and another thing, you was telling me not to post unless I have something intelligent to say??:mad: Dude I think what I just said makes more sense than everyone of you assholes who replied to this thread before me. Don't you fucking realise that 85% of the world are against you muther-fuckers? So you support war, is that suppose to make you extreme or something??? You kiddies make me sick!:mad:

[Instigator]

THANK YOU, MERCURY. Deagler, go home.

[wils0646]

85% of the world!!!!!! Oh, wow, you are really misinformed. We have over 40 nations backing our cause. Read some info on it bud. You are just like the rest of the protesters. You think you people are the majority. Sorry to say, WE are the majority.

[Bergs]

This is gonna be easy.

1)No this war wont just take out Saddam. It will take out his cronies, WMD, and republican guard. UNfortunately civilians will and have died but it is nothing compared to the amounts that have and will die if saddam's tyrannical rule continues. Secondly if when Iraqis do die it is usually because either they were stupid (ie. the van thing yesterday, that wasnt our fault) or 1 out of 1000 bombs landed 10 yards away from its intended target that was hidden in a residential area and unfortunately killed someone.

2) Absolutely not. 100s of innocent Iraqis (when i say innocent i mean civilian noncombatants) possibly 1000s. Not millions. Do you know how big a million is? That statement is utterly rediculous.

3) Again, absolutely rediculous because millions wont be lost which is what I said above and our whole mission is to remove saddam. We're not gonna just stop. The goals will be completed.

4) The economy of Iraq will certainly be better off because all the sanctions will be lifted, and saddam wont be using the peoples money on himself anymore. A free Iraq will also create investment opportunities for the region (not just oil companies) France may suffer because they might lose money on exports but that will be there own fault

Lastly you said that it was selfish to attack another country to protect your own. Well the presidents job is to look out for America and protect it. He cant sit around and go oh no that might be selfish of us. Please

[Instigator]

hmm...and 40 is what percentage of 292 (if your facts are correct, which i doubt they are)?

[wils0646]

I really meant the United States, but I see you're numbers are right, but I wonder if we asked every single country what they thought. I dont think all the rest of the world is against our cause. They just do not want a say in it.

[Instigator]

although i disagree with you, wils, i respect you for, up until now, not acting ignorant and stupid with your point of view. If you respect people who disagree with you, we can engage in intelligent dialogue about the war, as opposed to slinging shit at each other.

[wils0646]

Yea, i believe that too. But, do you still believe that the U.S. is opposed to the war as a majority? You have to see there have been many polls and you anti-war people are really the minority when it comes to this point of view. Other countries in our world do disagree, but when we find WMD, you will see the numbers rise dramatically. We do have justification in this war, and we have to do this now. We've given Saddam 12 years, 12 years! to disarm. He has been ruthless to his people and he should be removed. Have you heard what Saddam's son does to the women in the streets of Baghdad? He visciously rapes them and then murders them after he is done. He is a serial rapist! These people are not humain, and our country, as the chief protector of democracy and freedom for people, have a duty to do something about it.

[Instigator]

Originally posted by wils0646
Yea, i believe that too. But, do you still believe that the U.S. is opposed to the war as a majority? You have to see there have been many polls and you anti-war people are really the minority when it comes to this point of view.

Well, heres an example of why I disagree: in the last election, the majority of americans did not vote for George W. Bush. The #1 book in the country is a completely anti-war book called Stupid White Men, and it has been on the best-seller list for 54 weeks on the west coast. it is the best-selling nonfiction work of the past year. Now, if the country really was widely conservative, wouldn't a conservative book hold that spot? Maybe...Bias, or the latest from limbaugh?

[Chris Best]

Unfortunately you have no idea what you speak of. You, as well as the entire hippy nation, have no idea whatsoever the shear hate and power Saddam possess.

A) You claim millions will be lost in a U.S. led preemptive strike. If this were true, which it certianly is not, does this mean that Saddam should be allowed to continue killing. Yes, there will be innocent lives lost, however this is a very small sacrafice to liberate and free the middle eastern people. Those who do claim that the middle east does not want to be free are wrong. The Iraq's are embracing the U.S. troops to help liberate them from years and years of oppression and crulty brought forth by Saddom.

B) "War is sux." You're right!! It does suck, but let's contimplate what has come from war: America liberation from taxation without representation (to become the most powerful political/military/ and free country to ever exist), the end of slavery, the end to Hilter's goal of world domination and genicide. True, war does suck, however, this does not mean that the end to which war is the only means sucks.

Mercury, please, I cannot stand the youth (yes I am very young too, only 20) slandering those who fight for this country, and spite the very flag that my father and grandfather fought for so you could have your free speech.

Quote: I hate democracy more than anything, except all the other forms of government. ~ME (Chris Best)

Quote: The problem with our democracy is your uninformed rediculous "opinion" is just as important and respected as my well-rounded factually based one. ~Yes, me again.

For more originals, feel free to e-mail me at bestch@onid.orst.edu

[Instigator]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Best
You claim millions will be lost in a U.S. led preemptive strike. If this were true, which it certianly is not, does this mean that Saddam should be allowed to continue killing.

i never claimed that, chris...but, while we're at it, tell me: how can a preemptive strike NOT kill millions? Just give me some ways, i'm waiting..

[deagler]

Mercury, "war sux" was a VERY unintelligent reply. I hope you agree with me. Your next posts have legitimate arguments, so I will answer your questions. I enjoy a mature debate.
1. Do you think that a war would ''just take out Saddam''?

No, the war is to disarm Iraq from extremely dangerous weapons of mass destruction including missles, chemial agents, weapons for biological warfare, and possibly nuclear weapons. We have all witnessed over the last months time and time again how Iraq officials were coaching scientists answers and controlling the UN inspections.

2. You don't think that it would result in the deaths of millions of innocent people?

If you're talking about Saddam in power, yes, millions of innocent people have already died. If you're talking about the war, no, millions of innocent will not die. Some innocent will die, maybe hundreds, maybe even thousands, but it will be MANY less than with Saddam in power.

3. Are you 100% sure that after this war and after the loss of millions of innocent lives that Saddam will no longer be alive or in governance?

Nothing is 100% sure. Does that mean you don't do it? No, and I could give you thousands of examples.

4. Don't you think that a war would weeken the economy of the world, country by country, hence creating a greater challenge for everyday living?

It is a remote possibility. However, if the US wins (99.9% i would say), the oil of Iraq will become stable again and will lower oil prices 2 or 3 dollars a barrell worldwide, which in my prediction (which is as good as yours or anyone elses), would send the world economy rolling smooth for at least 10 years. Hopefully by then fuel cell or other energy technology will have evolved and become dominant.

a nuke has a possibility of killing millions, not the disarmament of Iraq.

[Unregistered]

Millions of people will die... this is ridiculous!!! Those who will and are being killed are those who choose to take arms against the United States and for Saddam. THe United States is not going to purposfully kill the innocent, but you don't have to believe this, just watch the news (WAIT, THAT DAMNED CORPORATE MEDIA!). Thus far, no confirmed innocent civilian caualties from U.S. attack. While this doesn't mean it hasn't happened, it surly is not millions, and the sacrafice of some, will come to benefit all.

I saw another post about the economy... ironically those who are rich in the U.S. are rich, if they don't feel secure, then they don't invest, therefor this war will make those who are investing more secure to invest their money. Funny how the stock market went up more after we declared war than it had in more than 20 years.

[Instigator]

as you say, Iraq harbors all kinds of weapons. But so do we. They strongarm their citizens into believing their propaganda. But so do we, through media outlets, among other things. It is fine to say that Iraq is far less than perfect (I, for one, would have to agree), just make sure that you keep it in perspective. The united states government is not saintly, either.

[AcdnluvsUSA]

Instigator, and chris

I love how u write, just to say one thing, I am 20yrs old aswell chris, and u do have some good points, it's weird how u can have an intelligent argument while people my age over here are so stupid. They can't debate shit without getting pissed off or without saying dumb shit for that matter.

Just one question though< what is a pre emptive strike?

I never really did understand the meaning of that one.

ps: i see u think u are the best, good for you.

[deagler]

Population of counties won by Gore: 127 million
Population of counties won by Bush: 143 million
source (http://www.egreeley.com/messages/170.html)

Please tell me what the hell the #1 selling book on the West Coast has to do with the ENTIRE WORLD'S opinion of the war.

Guess it's time to pull out the BULLSHIT statistics
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1

If Gore would have won we obviously would have obliterated every country in the world right now.

No that's not seriously my opinion.
Please make sure your facts and opinions are relevant Instigator before posting again.

[wils0646]

Yes, the media told you that George W. Bush did not win the popular vote. But they failed to tell you that in some states, if the majority of the vote is overwhelming for one candidate, they stop counting votes in that state (I believe). And I'm sorry, but I HATE it when people bring this war down to politics. If you are LIBERAL, it does NOT mean you are against the war. And if you are CONSERVATIVE, it does not mean you are FOR war. You have to see this point of view. The book sale also does not mean the same thing. And please tell me you don't always listen to Michael Moore. He seems to lie much of the time to bend the facts his way (Even in his Documentary-Bowling With Columbine-is very, very contraversal). What if people that are for this war want to read another point of view? And the 2000 election also has NOTHING to do with how people feel about the war. IF more people voted for Gore, as you said, it does not mean EVERY one of those people vote against this war. Same with the people that voted for Bush. Even Gore, if he was the President, could've opted to go to war. If you want to put this into a politics perspective, then we can say Bush's approval rating is 70%. So that means that 70% people support the war......right?

[deagler]

Personally I think that Bush should be tied-up and burnt to death very slowly. His body shall be burnt to ashes in this world while his soul shall be put to fuel the fires of the afterlife.

We should not end Saddam's regime or fight for peace but we should torture our own president. While your remark may have not been literal, it just shows how much of a hypocrite you are.

[AcdnluvsUSA]

here here!


like i said in my other posts, people are walking contradictions.

also his statement was a non-sequitor...er, or, whatever.

[Instigator]

uh...deagler, who are you quoting there? also, wils, if bowling for columbine had such "contraversal" statistics, why, exactly, did it win the oscar for best feature documentary? wouldn't the academy exclude his film if it was, in fact, faulty?

[wils0646]

Read this and make your own opinion. I think the Academy wanted to send a message to the Bush administration and they didn't care if his documentary was very skewed.



http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[deagler]

this one is for instigator
1. i'm quoting a post from mercury on the first page.
2. i dont care about bowling for columbine. you're bringing up more irrelevant bullshit (last time it was best selling books on the west coast), now it is which film won an oscar. Apparently the film wasn't even a documentary. It seems to me that you are saying "faulty/irrelevant/misleading info. won an oscar so i can use it to back up my case here."

NICE TRY

[Bergs]

I see my post was completly ignored (along with several similair posts) so here it is again. You will keep seeing it until instigator and his other liberal shit friend mercury respond.

Mercury says....

Here are some questions you should be asking your shameless self:

1. Do you think that a war would ''just take out Saddam''?
2. You don't think that it would result in the deaths of millions of innocent people?
3. Are you 100% sure that after this war and after the loss of millions of innocent lives that Saddam will no longer be alive or in governance?
4. Don't you think that a war would weeken the economy of the world, country by country, hence creating a greater challenge for everyday living?

I say....

This is gonna be easy.

1) No this war won’t just take out Saddam. It will take out his cronies, WMD, and republican guard. Unfortunately civilians will and have died but it is nothing compared to the amounts that have and will die if saddam's tyrannical rule continues. Secondly if when Iraqis do die it is usually because either they were stupid (i.e. the van thing yesterday, that wasn’t our fault) or 1 out of 1000 bombs landed 10 yards away from its intended target that was hidden in a residential area and unfortunately killed someone.

2) Absolutely not. 100s of innocent Iraqis (when I say innocent I mean civilian noncombatants) possibly 1000s. Not millions. Do you know how big a million is? That statement is utterly ridiculous.

3) Again, absolutely ridiculous because millions won’t be lost which is what I said above and our whole mission is to remove saddam. We're not gonna just stop. The goals will be completed.

4) The economy of Iraq will certainly be better off because all the sanctions will be lifted, and saddam wont be using the peoples money on himself anymore. A free Iraq will also create investment opportunities for the region (not just oil companies) France may suffer because they might lose money on exports but that will be there own fault. As far as the rest of the world goes, the oil market will become more stable, which is good for everyone.

Lastly you said that it was selfish to attack another country to protect your own. Well the presidents job is to look out for America and protect it. He cant sit around and go oh no that might be selfish of us. Please

[Instigator]

Deagler, I was not talking to you when i mentioned bowling for columbine. if you look at the post, I am talking to wils, not you. My point was not that "faulty info won an oscar," my point was that if it truly were faulty, it is highly unlikely that the Academy, often very conservative in their decisions, would not choose it.

[Bergs]

The academy? Conservative? Hold on while I laugh my ass off!!!

[wils0646]

I totally agree with you Bergs....I have no idea how Instigator got that idea.....

[Unregistered]

are any of you in the military or ever served in the military?

[Bergs]

There have been some guys claiming to be ex-marines, I personnaly am going into Army ROTC when I start school in the fall, and after I will go either active or reserve

[Instigator]

good for you.

[Bergs]

Hey instigator, quit copying and pasteing other people's arguements that have been totally beaten the shit out of!!

Go back and read the replys because I dont have time to prove your copied ass statement wrong

[Instigator]

i'd like to see your sorry fuckin replies. bring em on, you stupid hick.

[ngc4594y]

totally dude, especially instigator. he was like defending a canadian once after the canadian had been attacked about being illiterate after the canadian attacked someone else about being uneducated. and the canadian was the one who wasn't even getting through a single line without a spelling error.
hahah

[¤¤MêRçürݤ¤]

Hey Instigator, I think these people will just never learn.

I couldn't care less what they think about me or my opinions because their's aren't any more intelligent. Those responses they gave to my questions are terribly invalid and makes no sense whatsoever.

And finally, I would just like to say that by member(s) creating multiple threads and repeating posts constantly just to be heard is a sure sign of immaturity, and I have no business in arguing with those types, therefore I'm out of here.

Hope y'all enjoy your war!
...¤¤MêRçürݤ¤ ...

[ngc4594y]

Originally posted by ¤¤MêRçürݤ¤
Hey Instigator, I think these people will just never learn.

.I couldn't care less what they think about me or my opinions because their's aren't any more intelligent Those responses they gave to my questions are terribly invalid and makes no sense whatsoever.

And finally, I would just like to say that by member(s) creating multiple threads and repeating posts constantly just to be heard is a sure sign of immaturity, and I have no business in arguing with those types, therefore I'm out of here.

Hope y'all enjoy your war!
...¤¤MêRçürݤ¤ ...

Hmmmm, it sounds more like to me he ran out of theories. or finally realized he was wrong.
-------
".I couldn't care less what they think about me or my opinions because their's aren't any more intelligent .."
-------
so profound mercury! I'm not sure how to respond to that. You finally left like we told you to in the beginning.



How the hell is creating multiple threads a sign of immaturity, my goodness you are a retard. you have no business arguing with us types because you have no logic too. therefor you are out of here. Hurrah!! and fuck you.

[Instigator]

hahaha..."us types"

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Instigator
hahaha..."us types"

Wow, another bafflingly profound and enigmatic statement by the Instigator. How do you come up with this stuff man, did you research it or what man? I just wanted to let you know that I am sooo, devestated!

[Instigator]

ooo stealth i'm scared..sign in and face the music, you fuckin puss.

[Unregistered]

if my responses did not cater to your desires, maybe you should rephrase the questions. i answered those questions and if you have more, please post them and i will be happy to do my best to answer. like i said, to both sides, please don't resort to bashing. also, it does make your position look kind of weak just to up and leave. i also realize, however, that we will probably not come to an agreement. my arguments look great to all the pro war people and don't answer anything for the anti-war folk. i beleive that that is one of the greatest things about our country. Whether we are pro war or anti war, we should unite as one during this time of conflict and support our troops.


if a draft was instated and i was called, i would definitely go defend OUR country. now i'm in college and that is not my choice, but i am registered. hell, i preregistered. if you really think about how this country has supported you, you should WANT to support it back, even in endeavors that you may disagree with.

[deagler]

that was my post

[ngc4594y]

Uh, its kind of fuckin obvious it was me. My post was the one immediately after yours. My goodness!

[ngc4594y]

Just to make sure everyone knows, I was talking to instigator not deagler.

[Unregistered]

Wow, you people get really worked up by this.....people you never knew, never met, are being killed, tortured and generally harassed, but you still feel sympathy for what they're going through!
I mean, I expect you must cry when you hear about that van that tried to run through a checkpoint, which resulted in 8 innocent people being killed? You must grieve just like their families are/will when you hear about sad events like that.....

Yeah, ok, so sarcasm doesn't come over so well in an internet forum, but I think you can understand what I'm getting at. And before all the abuse starts flying (as I know it will), I just want to get a few things off my chest.

I can TOTALLY see why Saddam should be removed from power. He is.....well, an arsehole. I could say worse, but it would use up too much space.......and the things he has done are inconscienable (I think i spelt it right). However, although I don't think diplomacy would work in the short term (yeah, I'm man enough to admit that), I still don't think that war should have begun so quickly. Just the threat of war would have been enough to stop Saddam from ever using any WoMD he may have - he is a dictator, and therefore wants to stay in power. An attack against any other country in the world would have been enough to ensure he shuffled off this mortal coil.

But, back to my point.

A lot of the things I've seen on this forum have both surprised and annoyed me. For one, the ease with which a lot of you will kick off a slanging match with another person (and, I've gotta say, it does seem to be mostly the pro-war people who start these things up - sorry to say it, but check back on the posts and see if I'm really that wrong for thinnking it) shocks me, especially since this is meant to be a place where you can do something you definitely could not do in Iraq; openly and honestly express your view. That's supposedly what this war is about, so that others can enjoy the same freedom that we live our day-to-day lives with.

Plus, I've got to say, I do think it is a bit naive to say that this war is totally motivated by a compassion for the Iraqi people. Although it would be nice to believe that (and it may be about 10% of the reason), this war is motivated mostly by oil. I know that the pro-war rallyists will never believe me, but you don't have to, because I'm not saying it's truth, it's just my opinion. Most of George Bush's cabinet stated before the war (they were part of a think-tank that racked their brains about what the USA should probably do to proceed into the new millennium with territorial and economic security) that a military presence should be stationed in Kuwait, and maybe even in Iraq, to safeguard America's oil interests. That was before 9/11. Especially now, after such a terrible tragedy that has taken away a little bit of the developed world's confidence in itself, it seems that America wishes to spearhead the task of making the world a safe place for all. I must admit, I noted no such cause in the American psyche in the years before 9/11.

Ok then, I've said my piece.....and I know you lot are gonna LOVE replying to this (that is, if you can be arsed to take the time to read through it...), so go right ahead. Use the dirtiest words you can, I'm ok with it......

[Instigator]

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for telling us.

[ngc4594]

I too am sick and saddened by the death of so many innocent civilians. If I knew the people more I would perhaps cry, especially if i was there. But I guess it doesn't affect me so much since I am so far away.

[wils0646]

Thanks for your view Unregistered, but I cannot see how you believe that this war is primarily about oil. President Bush and many congressmen (including Democrats) constantly say that the oil is and still will be Iraq's oil. We are not going to use this oil for our own gain. I still respect your opinion, but why do you think The President would put young American soldiers in the line of fire for economic gain for our country? I know President Bush is a devoted Christian who would never use our forces for that very reason.

[Instigator]

what are you, bush's altar boy? as for the "devoted christian" bullshit, did you know that the majority of serial killers are also devoted christians?

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#numerum

[satin]

well said guest

[william]

hmmm with a website called "infidels.org" i know that the facts are not slanted in the slightest

[Instigator]

if you read it, your dogmatic ass will be proven wrong.

[satin]

awwwwwwwww reading i just want to be a dumb shit

[william]

i have a better website its called www.atheistpropaganda.org

[satin]

oh man you got us we should just leave you alone now you are far too cool

[william]

and if you didnt catch the sarcasm you are a dumb shit

[satin]

i really thought you where an atheist..............

[william]

oh yeah i was wondering what do you mean by a "devoted Christian"

[Instigator]

heres an even better web site
www.hoodwinkednationalist.com

[satin]

you are just on fire buddy do you have a writer to come up with this stuff?

[william]

my question was not adressed-what, in your definition is a devoted Chrisitian? is it:
-someone who SAYS they are christian but doesnt necessarily act that way
-or someone who says they are a christian and they do conduct themselves as such?

just wondering

[satin]

ill go with -

[william]

oh yeah Instigator...your quote is out of date...the war is just about over.

[Instigator]

Act WHAT way, william? "christian" is a label, not a way of acting.

[william]

so i guess you are saying that christians dont have to act in any particular way to be considered christian. they can just do whatever and all that matters is if the "christian"label is bestowed upon them.

i think you missed the part of the Bible that warns against people who masquerade as Christians and also warns against false teachers and false prophets. it says that those people will get a punishment worse than Hell.

[Instigator]

if it were true that ALL practicing christians live by the bible, how do you explain all of the criminals and other dishonest people who are also devout christians? I think it's about time you descend from Never-Never Land, Peter Pan. Either do that or extricate your head from your ass, one or the other.

[william]

hmmmmm ok i think there is no way to convince you otherwise. you just will never understand that some people just call themselves Christians but they arent really Christians.

this reminds me of how a lot of hippies back in the Veitnam Era would call themselves Buddhist but they didnt actually live by all of the Buddhist laws of conduct. Were they really Buddhist?

[Unregistered]

I think you should get your head out of your ass with believing Michael Moore. Your credibility decreases heavily if you believe that liar. Even having Michael Moore's quote at the end of all your statements make you look like a dumbass.

[Unregistered]

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOURE THE DUMBASS

[Unregistered]

Oh bold statement, still Michael Moore is a dumbass.

[Unregistered]

And you're an egg-sucking dickrider.

[satin]

i think you missed the part of the Bible that warns against people who masquerade as Christians and also warns against false teachers and false prophets. it says that those people will get a punishment worse than Hell. [/B][/QUOTE]

i guess bush is not going to hell then after all

[ngc4594]

A phrase from "unregistered"

"Just the threat of war would have been enough to stop Saddam from ever using any WoMD he may have - he is a dictator, and therefore wants to stay in power. An attack against any other country in the world would have been enough to ensure he shuffled off this mortal coil. "

Actually, the fact that he flagerantly violated UN resolutions since 1995, proves that he wanted some kind of war so obviously he's not going to back down if the opportunity comes. Which would result in genocide which you guys( instigator and unregistered don't like). Actually he did already commit genocide and you know that. And the attack of Iraq against any other country in the world would result in Genocidal numbers. Which you guys don't like.
I know you guys want Saddam removed from power but you have said that you didn't want the United States to Jump into it so fast or to do it with so many casualties. Well, as you probably have common sense to realize, Saddam's regime would only get worse. So basically the UN or some country will have to get him out eventually. Also, since he knew that he was violating UN resolutions for five years, then if we never took action, as time passes, he would have his womd hidden more and more.
And it is good that we started now instead of later because
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHEN WE START WAR WITH IRAQ, IRAQ WILL ALWAYS TRY AND USE ITS CIVILIANS AS SHIELDS AND KEEP THEM IN THE COUNTRY. and will always be developing and harboring deadly gasses since we know he already used some against the kurds.
IF THEY LET ALL THEIR INNOCENT CIVILIANS GO TO SAFE ZONES THAN THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Time is not a asset we have.

[satin]

ok here is the plan because you all seem to hate sadam for making his people die and i hate bush AND sadam for making people die

ok here it is the final plane

since bush did not win the election and stole the presidency the UN should give him 30 days starting now to step down from office or be taken out of power the same goes for sadam

[Unregistered]

lol, neither one will do it...why, you ask? BECAUSE THEYRE BOTH DICTATORS!

[Unregistered]

Bush did not win the election?
that's news to me. PLEASE don't post STUPID arguments on this topic. Bush DID win the election, BOTH by popular vote AND electoral vote.

NO ONE has answered the original question in this topic which is, How will leaving Saddam in power lead to peace and justice in Iraq? I have answered all of your questions, now please answer mine in a REASONABLE (& mature) manner.

[satin]

here is the answer it will not

happy now did not think so

[deagler]

stupid thing keeps logging me out

[satin]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Bush did not win the election?
that's news to me. PLEASE don't post STUPID arguments on this topic. Bush DID win the election, BOTH by popular vote AND electoral vote.

.

are you really that stupid? i mean really?

[deagler]

actually satin I am VERY happy. taking saddam out is NECESSARY.

[deagler]

lol i don't beleive you satin. you really think bush lost the election? you're making a fool of yourself here. quit changing the subject anyways. bush road to the whitehouse is NOT the subject.

[deagler]

uh oh here comes a long post from satin

[Unregistered]

deagler, click on the fucking link that proves you wrong, remove both of your socks, and shove them in your mouth so you can learn to shut the fuck up.

[deagler]

actually i would still be able to type with socks in my mouth. plus, my socks stink so i prolly wouldn't do that anyways. can you please post the specific link that you are refering to? there are several on this post.
thanks so much! have a good day!

[Unregistered]

I'd be delighted to, deagler.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/US_election_race/Story/0,2763,430306,00.html

[deagler]

The first SURVEY, conducted on behalf of the Washington Post, shows that Mr Gore had a nearly three-to-one majority among 56,000 Florida voters whose November 7 ballot papers were discounted because they contained more than one punched hole.

WOW. This is what happened. After these people screwed up their ballots, this "Guardian" news source took a survey themselves. Bush voters didn't care about this survey because it didn't/doesn't matter. All the Gore voters were so pissed that they fucked up the election that they went out and took this "legitimate" survey and that is why they had overwhelming odds. This "Guardian" site could be a tabloid for all i know. Bush still had MORE VOTERS than Gore throughout the country, and that is what really matters, don't you think? The electoral college is set up simply because of people like the Floridians that screw up ballots. Don't take this out on Bush, unless you think it's some sort of conspiracy?? And once again, THIS IS NOT THE SUBJECT WE ARE DEBATING. BUSH IS PRESIDENT. The supreme court decided that. They're pretty smart guys, got the country to where it is today. I think you might get a little idea of the anti-war basher's stereotype of you anti-war people "just arguing for the sake of arguing and protesting everything but a protest" with this illlegitimate argument of Bush's presidency in a WAR FORUM. And please don't tell me to shut the fuck up. have a nice day!

i'm goin to the final four this weekend, i'll be back on tuesday so get your arguments ready! :-D

[william]

if the Gore voters are stupid enough to get confused by filling out a ballot then they shouldnt be allowed to vote. simple as that. By the way last i checked Bush IS the president...whether you like it or not.

[ngc4594]

Originally posted by satin
ok here is the plan because you all seem to hate sadam for making his people die and i hate bush AND sadam for making people die

ok here it is the final plane

since bush did not win the election and stole the presidency

the UN should give him 30 days starting now to step down from office or be taken out of power the same goes for sadam

You know that Bush didn't steal the presidency you moron. I mean I thought you'd at least mention that Saddam did. Every one should know that.

At least descern between the fact that Bush is trying to reach a profitable objective( even though it is being done very recklessly but could be done better if Saddam respected the rules of war), and that Saddam is responsible for far more deaths for unnecessary reasons than Bush is for this war.


Not too much logic in your childish outburst.

[ngc4594]

Even if Al Gore has gotten the majority of votes. Your statement saying Bush stole them is incorrect. He didn't have anything to do with the ballot papers having too many holes punched in them.

[Coven66]

NGC, i agree with you, and hold on, didn't the us give Saddam like 6 monthes to disarm and step down, what do you think all that talk was before the war, the coming attractions? plus no matter how much you demand Saddam would never step down. he is so full of himself that he would never slink away, he's that kid in highschool that's always asking you if "You Wanna Go?" he thinks that he is the perfect human being and everyone else is inferior, hey just like hitler, stallen, and big brother(1984) men he has openly said he idolizes. so how long can we play nice, don't forget back in 1998 he had his army poised on the edge of Kuwait and the only thing that stopped him from invading again was when Clinton gave the order to have his tanks and missles on the border bombed. so maybe next time he gets a chance he won't wait for us to bomb him first, maybe he'll just go for it. and thats what this war is mainly about

[ngc4594]

True,Very true. Not being sarcastic either.

[Castol]

Originally posted by wils0646
We have over 40 nations backing our cause.
current total is 60+ nations backing us. Amazing how the number increases as we push closer and closer towards our final goal.

[Unregistered]

wow castol. YOU SPELLED THE NAME OF GENERAL PATTON WRONG IN YOUR QUOTE. jesus ur stupid...

[ngc4594]

Originally posted by Unregistered
wow castol. YOU SPELLED THE NAME OF GENERAL PATTON WRONG IN YOUR QUOTE. jesus ur stupid...

Holy Cow!! We are talking about the reason of this war, not about grammer. My goodness. You MUST be running out of arguments and come backs if you have to start attacking someone's spelling errors!

[Unregistered]

you're right, were not talking about "grammer." lol.

[ngc4594]

OOOOH , no I am going to commit suicide. I said grammar not " spelling error"

Maybe I should have known but BIG DEAL ! We are in a forum talking THE REASONS FOR WAR!!!

[BlueMind]

The thing is, if you really want to be taken seriously, you use correct grammar and spelling.
Then, of course, you have dumbnuts, like Satin, who think a comma is something you eat.

[deagler]

it is also true that we are all human and reserve the right to make mistakes. i'll tell everyone again, this forum is about the WAR and NOT ANYTHING ELSE. Anti war peeps, i'd be curious to know how you feel now that Saddam is either dead or at least out of power?? The rebuilding of Iraq is about to begin. I know we are not out of danger yet, but I do beleive that it has been dramatically reduced. any thoughts now?
thanks, kyle