GI Joe Gym Class

[Chewy]

Parents Upset Over Gym Class Run By Marine Corps Recruiter
Attendance At Class Was Optional

POSTED: 4:01 pm CDT May 20, 2006

MADISON, Wis. -- The principal of a Madison high school said the school made a mistake in letting a Marine Corps recruiter conduct a physical education class there.

Some parents called the move a backdoor effort to recruit students.

About 600 students from grades nine through 12 participated in the class at East High School on May 11. Principal Alan Harris said participation was voluntary and about 30 percent of students opted out.

Madison School Board policy limits military visits to three a year. But guidance counselor David Hoppe, who oversees military visits, said he didn't know about it until afterward.

East High School junior Allysa Roedl, 16, chose not to participate. She said the Marine recruiters had students do exercises such as push-ups, and she said they yelled at students "totally Marine-style."

Harris said he'll remind all staff members and military recruiters of the district policy.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/9249542/detail.html


The class is voluntary, my issue is if they use a class disguised as a recruiting tool. They should be distinct and with parent’s permission. IMO. Thoughts?

[Cousin Eddie]

Ingenius! Sneaky fucker!

Those god damn recruiters were relentless when i graduated. It was way beyond harrassment. Came to my home, asked to be invited in, came to my work, etc. etc..

Fuckers!

[troxy18]

If I remember correctly back when I was in tenth or eleventh grade (pre 9-11) we had an army recruiter come and conduct a gym class once or twice. The only reason that these parents are worried about it now is that they are afraid that their children will suddenly become instantly brainwashed by a recruiter the second the recruiter talks to hte kid, but if they had raised their kid with some critical thinking skills they shouldnt need to worry.

[Chewy]

The only reason that these parents are worried about it now is that they are afraid that their children will suddenly become instantly brainwashed by a recruiter the second the recruiter talks to hte kid, but if they had raised their kid with some critical thinking skills they shouldnt need to worry.The recruit does have a message to sell I think it’s far to address that concern. If a FLDS recruiter for example, offered to teach home economics to children and taught from the perspective of the virtues of polygamy would that raise an eyebrow or two?

[Danimal87]

The recruit does have a message to sell I think it’s far to address that concern. If a FLDS recruiter for example, offered to teach home economics to children and taught from the perspective of the virtues of polygamy would that raise an eyebrow or two?
Very funny, Chewy. You're comparing a Marine recruiter to someone advocating polygamy?

Unless the accusers have anything to back up their statement, their charge that the teacher is trying to recruit students is an empty one.

[Chewy]

Very funny, Chewy. You're comparing a Marine recruiter to someone advocating polygamy?Nothing funny about it. Both have an agenda and both are teaching from a perspective that supports that agenda.

[PitwrkzZ1]

As long as the students reserve the right to make up their own minds, this doesn't seem that dangerous :rolleyes:

[david_slupper]

Nothing funny about it. Both have an agenda and both are teaching from a perspective that supports that agenda.

What's the problem with a recruiter's agenda? Do you have anything against people signing up to defend your country?

They should be distinct and with parent’s permission. IMO. Thoughts?

This was voluntary. The ones who showed up, did so because they wanted to. Besides these are high schoolers.

She said the Marine recruiters had students do exercises such as push-ups, and she said they yelled at students "totally Marine-style."

So...

[troxy18]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635564/posts
Site with some more info from what appears to be the same article topic and with comments

[Danimal87]

What's the problem with a recruiter's agenda? Do you have anything against people signing up to defend your country?
Its not really his country, he lives in Canada.

And yes it is funny, Chewy. Your comparison is almost as ridiculous as comparing a Marine recruiter to a cannibal that convinces another person to be killed and eaten by that psycho. What you said was off-topic and strange.

[david_slupper]

Its not really his country, he lives in Canada.


That's why I said your country.;)

What you said was off-topic and strange.

Not strange for far-left people.

[Chewy]

Not strange for far-left people.
It was an example of tolerance of what we are willing to subject our children to. Both you and Danimal refuse to address my comments.


And yes it is funny, Chewy. Your comparison is almost as ridiculous as comparing a Marine recruiter to a cannibal that convinces another person to be killed and eaten by that psycho. What you said was off-topic and strange.You are dodging my question.


What's the problem with a recruiter's agenda? Do you have anything against people signing up to defend your country?
Thus far children are not asked to sign up to defend a nation. I have no issue with a recruiter selling his virtues outside of schools.

[TFS]

There was nothing at all wrong with this. I would hardly consider that girl who opted out a reliable source on what "totally marine style" yelling is. We'd have to have an exact quote of what he yelled to determine if that was right or wrong of him to do.

This was just something unique and different for students to participate in if they chose to. I'd have a problem with it if it was mandatory, but them having a choice makes it ok in my book.

I do take issue with that guidance counselor not knowing about it. If they're supposed to coordinate all military visits, they're supposed to coordinate it, no ifs ands or buts. But I have to wonder if the marines instructing the class knew that or the teacher who invited them just invited them and said it was all taken care of.

Personally, gym classes across America are lacking heavily. The Marines are considered the epitome of American physical fitness: muscular, healthy, strong, sharp, mentally focused, determined, and substance free. Bringing them in to instruct a class on physical fitness is not a bad thing. It's an area of their expertise.

Chewy, you might have a case if they were brought in for a special presentation that pre-empted classes that was mandatory and taught military operational tactics, but having kids do push-ups and getting in their faces with the marine bark to motivate them and have a good time is not an issue.

I'd rather do that than what I did in my high school gym class. I only had to take a semester of it, too and all we did was play kickball...in HIGH SCHOOL. The one time we had to run a mile, we had to run it in 16 minutes. That's walking speed. I ran the damn thing backwards just to be an ass while I was lapping all the fat kids and cheerleaders who were walking.

[DaddyMac]

My class was forced to take the ASVAB at my highschool. When we were entering the multi-purpose room for the test, there were some army guys yelling and ordering us around. It pissed me off becuase I didn't agree with it, but I just had to laugh at it too. It seemed like a joke.

This is different though. It was volunteer. One thing I would like to know though is if it was done during gym class throughout the day. Or if it was done once, and the volunteers got to leave class for it. IF they got to leave another class and head for the gym, more students would have participated. And I'm sure the recruiters knew that. I would consider that a backdoor approach.

And I doubt they didn't say anything about joining up. I just don't think they would teach a class for the hell of it and not get something in return.

[david_slupper]

If a FLDS recruiter for example, offered to teach home economics to children and taught from the perspective of the virtues of polygamy would that raise an eyebrow or two?

I don't see a point of comparison between promoting polygamy, and promoting signing up for the army to defend your country.

Seriously, what's your problem with the army?

[Kommercial]

Why didn't they conduct a background check? Isn't the physical education teacher, still considered a "teacher?"

They called me when I graduated, and I made it quite clear that I didn't want to join. I got maybe a call or two, and both of them were well aware when I hung up. One of them even got my PCS phone number from the college I was attending, and called. I called the school, and they stated, when I signed up, I agreed to release my information to the government/military for government use. I never agree to that, I just agreed to paying to get an education.

[Chewy]

I don't see a point of comparison between promoting polygamy, and promoting signing up for the army to defend your country.

Seriously, what's your problem with the army?
Again the example I offered was one of comparison, of what values we will tolerate in mainstream school systems.

I have no issue with the Marines or the Army. I just don’t think they should be allowed the public schools to recruit or in this case us subversive tactics to groom recruiting.

[Kommercial]

Again the example I offered was one of comparison, of what values we will tolerate in mainstream school systems.

I have no issue with the Marines or the Army. I just don’t think they should be allowed the public schools to recruit or in this case us subversive tactics to groom recruiting.

So, during the "Job Fair", which they hold every year, the military shouldn't be able to show? Being in the military is just like any other job, you just travel a lot.

[Chewy]

So, during the "Job Fair", which they hold every year, the military shouldn't be able to show? Being in the military is just like any other job, you just travel a lot. I think we this was suggested before, I did acquiesce that point of allowing it for job fairs, while I don’t see military service as just any other job.

[Kommercial]

I think we this was suggested before, I did acquiesce that point of allowing it for job fairs, while I don’t see military service as just any other job.

It is just another job. You get paid to work, the work is just a little harder.

[david_slupper]

Again the example I offered was one of comparison, of what values we will tolerate in mainstream school systems.


Let me see if I'm getting your point. You're saying the recruiters are promoting values? Care to elaborate?

I just don’t think they should be allowed the public schools to recruit or in this case us subversive tactics to groom recruiting.

I agree with the subversive part. But why do you say they shouldn't be allowed in public schools? What harm are the making?

[TFS]

Again the example I offered was one of comparison, of what values we will tolerate in mainstream school systems.

I have no issue with the Marines or the Army. I just don’t think they should be allowed the public schools to recruit or in this case us subversive tactics to groom recruiting.
Actually, there were no subversive tactics.

They made participation open to those with an interest in participating in said events during normal class time, and those who didn't were not penalized in any way for not participating. They had no incentive to participate, so coersion is not present. They all very well could have said "fuck this, free day to sleep in the bleachers."

Of course, if people who are interested in joining to begin with ask about joining, they're going to give them direction in how to go about doing that, but you have shown no proof that any of them were handed flyers or pamphlets or business cards or any of their information was taken down by the marines present. It's really no different than if a professional zoologist comes in and gives a presentation on a specific topic in a biology class. They go in there, demonstrate their knowledge of the topic and teach the class a few new things, and of course hope they found something that sparked their interest. It's by no means recruiting.

You have no proof that they did indeed actively try to recruit people or play used-car-salesman about the military with these kids.

You're pretty much getting all red-alert over nothing. Every time something involving the military and high schoolers comes into play anywhere, you get all paranoid like this. It's rather silly.



And furthermore, if recruiters aren't allowed to set up a table in the lobby of government-funded schools, for kids to approach before, or after classes, or maybe even during lunch, during a crucial time in their lives where they have to start collecting information on opportunities and options they have after graduating, what are they going to do? People 18-22 are the best age for being recruited because of the physicallity of the training they are about to take if they do. It makes zero sense to go into an office of middle-aged people and try to recruit them when they have considerably less years left of physical ability required to do the tasks involved in a military career.

Damn, you act like Big Tobacco is giving free hand-outs to kindergartners.

[Chewy]

It is just another job. You get paid to work, the work is just a little harder.
I would not be one that would minimize their efforts and their risks attached as such. But it’s your call not mine.

Let me see if I'm getting your point. You're saying the recruiters are promoting values? Care to elaborate? A Marine Recruiter what do you think his intentions are?


I agree with the subversive part. But why do you say they shouldn't be allowed in public schools? What harm are the making?
I'd like rather see young people in school focus on their school work not be badgered by recruiters for the Military or Religious groups.

[david_slupper]

A Marine Recruiter what do you think his intentions are?


To get you to sign up. What does that have to do with values?

[Chewy]

To get you to sign up. What does that have to do with values?Right, the military has their own values, values per se that should not be forced on everyone. I have no issue with those values on tap for young people to pursue at career fairs put I don’t think young people should be exposed to them in a classroom setting. Same goes for any value system.

[Kommercial]

I would not be one that would minimize their efforts and their risks attached as such. But it’s your call not mine.

I never said it wasn't appreciated, I just stated you get paid to work, therefore making it a job/career.

[Chewy]

I never said it wasn't appreciated, I just stated you get paid to work, therefore making it a job/career.
It came across as you minimizing their efforts and their sacrifices.

[TFS]

You really are incredibly ridiculous, comparing the military to evangelical nutjobs and polygamists.

They set up a table in the lobby of the school, people who see them and have questions approach them. They don't interrupt classes or follow people around hounding them to join.

You have some interesting fears and paranoia.

[Chewy]

You really are incredibly ridiculous, comparing the military to evangelical nutjobs and polygamists. I suggested they have specific values.

You could substitute another special interest group like PETA for example if one of their recruiters taught a ‘special gym class’ with the ideals they hold true would you object?

Now if you read any of this thread you would notice I have no objection to them setting table on career day.

[david_slupper]

Right, the military has their own values, values per se that should not be forced on everyone. I have no issue with those values on tap for young people to pursue at career fairs put I don’t think young people should be exposed to them in a classroom setting. Same goes for any value system.

I acknowledge the military tends to be right-leaning, but I fail to see how that amounts to forcing values on "everyone."

Your argument amounts to saying left-leaning universities such as Mills College in California and thousands more shouldn't be allowed in public schools.

[Chewy]

I acknowledge the military tends to be right-leaning, but I fail to see how that amounts to forcing values on "everyone." If they are trying to sway their class into their form of thinking it applies.


Your argument amounts to saying left-leaning universities such as Mills College in California and thousands more shouldn't be allowed in public schools. That would be correct. This is not a left right cases it’s setting a standard, suggesting that schools are not allowed to hire instructors to pimp a product.

[david_slupper]

That would be correct.

That would effectively prevent most if not all universities from visiting public schools. It would also prevent clubs such as GSTL (or whatever it's called) from existing within school limits.

[TFS]

If they are trying to sway their class into their form of thinking it applies.
Isn't that what teaching is?



Oh, and you never specified career day that I saw. I clearly saw you state you do not approve of the military being recruiting in schools.

You have yet to prove they were trying to teach anything but work-out techniques. You have shown no proof that their values were pushed on these kids.



And for the record there is a difference between discussing commonly accepted values such as those held in the military (loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage) in school, and discussing those of extremists like PETA or polygamists.

[Chewy]

Isn't that what teaching is? No this is recruiting or grooming for recruiting.


Oh, and you never specified career day that I saw.
Reading threads don’t seem to be your strongest attribute.

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showpost.php?p=2256872&postcount=20
http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showpost.php?p=2256998&postcount=26


You have yet to prove they were trying to teach anything but work-out techniques. You have shown no proof that their values were pushed on these kids. The Military is limited in their visits of the school to three a year…. This is clearly a tactic in working around it.



And for the record there is a difference between discussing commonly accepted values such as those held in the military (loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage) in school, and discussing those of extremists like PETA or polygamists.
Do they have their own agendas?:rolleyes:

That would effectively prevent most if not all universities from visiting public schools. It would also prevent clubs such as GSTL (or whatever it's called) from existing within school limits.
Not at all, just limit their involvement and an extra curricular activity is not a class.

[TFS]

No this is recruiting or grooming for recruiting.

Show proof of recruitment tactics being used. Prove they did anything but teach work-out techniques.

You have yet to do any of this.

Show us where they pushed their values.

Show us where contact information was traded.

Show us where career opportunities were discussed.

Stop assuming and prove it.

Reading threads don’t seem to be your strongest attribute.

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showpost.php?p=2256872&postcount=20
http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showpost.php?p=2256998&postcount=26

You made a lot of posts while I was responding to other posts of yours and I missed those. You did not originally say anything about job fairs, all you originally said, which is what I saw, was that the military should not be on school ground.

And even after conceding to job fairs, you still said that thing about it not being a normal job as if it should only be allowed in job fairs on a technicality. I agree it's not a normal job when compared to other jobs, but the fact is it still is a job. It's the bottom line, not a technicality. Being an animal patrol officer is not a typical job either, but I doubt you'd have a problem with it being on campus.

The Military is limited in their visits of the school to three a year…. This is clearly a tactic in working around it.

As I also said before in my first post in this thread, it should have been coordinated through that counselor specified in the article.

Maybe you're not one to talk about reading skills.

It's not clearly a tactic to get around it. You have to have proof that they were acting as military recruiters, advertising the marines and actively suggesting enlistment to the students. All I saw in the article was that some guys who knew about personal fitness that happened to be Marines were brought in to do a special fitness presentation in a gym class and lead exercises. If that's all there was, this was not a military visit, but just a visit from some fitness experts who happened to be in the military by coincidence.

It should have been coordinated through that counselor though just to make sure it did or did not count as one of the three visits alloted, which would be determined on the subject matter they would be involved in, but all I see from that article is that all they did was lead exercises. If anything, thats a deterent from enlisting.;)

Do they have their own agendas?:rolleyes:

Who doesn't have an agenda? The fact is the military values and agenda are socially acceptable and not considered extreme, where-as the groups you have thus far compared it to are.

[david_slupper]

I just don’t think they should be allowed the public schools to recruit or in this case us subversive tactics to groom recruiting.


Not at all, just limit their involvement and an extra curricular activity is not a class.

You're contradicting yourself.

[droogsteve]

My class was forced to take the ASVAB at my highschool. When we were entering the multi-purpose room for the test, there were some army guys yelling and ordering us around. It pissed me off becuase I didn't agree with it, but I just had to laugh at it too. It seemed like a joke.

I rarely put things in such blunt terms, but you're full of shit. Lying, bullshitting, fibbing, twisting the truth, factually challenged, or whatever other euphemism you'd care to use.

You CANNOT be forced to take the ASVAB. Period.

[david_slupper]

^LOL, nicely put droogsteve.

[Chewy]

You're contradicting yourself.
Not all re-read the article; they are limited to three visits per year, I have not taken issue with that nor them at career day. I do have issues with recruiters showing up unannounced and soliciting students, and I do have an issue with them camouflaging as school teachers.


Show proof of recruitment tactics being used. Prove they did anything but teach work-out techniques. It’s a Marine Recruiter. The school itself stated they made an error in letting this happen. Your position seems to stem from what? the Because I say so claus?



You made a lot of posts while I was responding to other posts of yours and I missed those. You did not originally say anything about job fairs, all you originally said, which is what I saw, was that the military should not be on school ground. Like I said before you didn't read my posts.


And even after conceding to job fairs, you still said that thing about it not being a normal job as if it should only be allowed in job fairs on a technicality. I agree it's not a normal job when compared to other jobs, but the fact is it still is a job. It's the bottom line, not a technicality. Being an animal patrol officer is not a typical job either, but I doubt you'd have a problem with it being on campus. My concession to allowing for recruiters in school for job fairs it came from another thread, I reflect on that when I posted. I think you are trying to create an argument that simply doesn't exist.


As I also said before in my first post in this thread, it should have been coordinated through that counselor specified in the article.

Maybe you're not one to talk about reading skills. I never challanged that post.

It's not clearly a tactic to get around it. The school seemed to think so.

[Danimal87]

You are dodging my question.
I'm not going to answer your question because it is insulting to even mention polygamists and military recruiters in the same thread. You're telling everyone how skewed you and your values are when you compare the two.

[Chewy]

I'm not going to answer your question because it is insulting to even mention polygamists and military recruiters in the same thread. The hell it is, another attempt to avoid answering my questions though..

[Liberator13]

Wow.

People bitch because we are getting to fat and PE classes don't do enough.

People bitch when PE class steps up a notch.

This is fuckin' ridiculous.

Chewy, its not like he made them watch a propoganda film or anything. The Marines are masters of being fit and healthy, why not help a class along the way? If anything, I'm sure this class will ensure many students will not join the military.


Just to argue with your previous posts, and if he is pushing an agenda, who the fuck isn't? Every organization does anymore, they need to. Saying that they don't is complete horseshit.

[TFS]

It’s a Marine Recruiter. The school itself stated they made an error in letting this happen. Your position seems to stem from what? the Because I say so claus?

Just because he is a recruiter does not mean he was acting as a recruiter. How do you think he and the teacher met? maybe from one of the times he was there as a recruiter. And then the teacher probably proposed the idea of him being a guest work-out instructor.

You still have yet to post anything that shows he was actually recruiting. I'm a military engineer, does that mean I'm engineering every waking moment of my life? Not at all.

The school made an error, not the marine. The school could be the admin or the teacher not clearing this through the counselor before hand as not a recruiting visit but just a guest instructor, and it got taken the wrong way simply because people saw what the guy's career is.

By your logic, the guest conductor I had in band a few times was trying to recruit me into his ensemble simply for being present and a band conductor.

Again: show me proof of recruiting being done.

Did he trade contact information?

Did he promote the different opportunities and financial benifits of the military?

Did he hand out pamphlets or business cards during class that had recruiter contact information on it?

You've dodged all these questions so far and seem content that a Marine recruiter being present at a function is damning proof of recruiting taking place.

Like I said before you didn't read my posts.

Like I also said before I admitted to that. You gonna address the point I made or not?

The fact is you did not originally say anything about job fairs.

My concession to allowing for recruiters in school for job fairs it came from another thread, I reflect on that when I posted. I think you are trying to create an argument that simply doesn't exist.

If it came from another thread, how am I expected to know your stance? Am I required to read every thread you post in?

You're trying to use misdirection here. In this thread, you originally stated that military personnel should not be on school property to recruit. Then you conceded to letting them at job fairs accompanied by comments that implied you not even really approving of allowing them there either.

I missed the posts where you stated those things about the job fairs originally. This thread grew rather quickly, so pardon me not catching everything said.

I never challanged that post.

No, you didn't, but in a recent post you implied that I never read that thing about the 3 visits when I had previously commented on it.

It does not matter anyway, because those three visits are intended to apply to military recruitment visits, but we have yet to see proof that this guy was doing anything but giving advice on and teaching about exercising properly.

The school seemed to think so.
The school can think all it wants, but it doesn't make it right. There is obviously a failure to communicate between the teacher, the admin, and the counselor about this guy being there and the purpose for him being there.

That does not at all mean he is guilty of recruiting. All it shows is that the school fucked up in making his purpose for being there known and it's a typical reaction for people to think "soldier at a school? Must be recruiting!" For a school to have a rule limiting recruiter visits to 3 a year, it sounds like that area is already paranoid about it in general, so them assuming something not necessarily true is not unlikely.

[Chewy]

Just to argue with your previous posts, and if he is pushing an agenda, who the fuck isn't? There are limitation on those ageda we can push correct?

[Liberator13]

There are limitation on those ageda we can push correct?

How do you mean?

On some, there are.

In Cindy Sheehan's case, there isn't.

[Chewy]

How do you mean?

On some, there are.
Military recruiters in this case are limited to three visits a year to this school.
Other people that wish to push an agenda for example say PETA if they offered to teach a class on ethics it would be highly suspect would it not?

[TFS]

Military recruiters in this case are limited to three visits a year to this school.
Other people that wish to push an agenda for example say PETA if they offered to teach a class on ethics it would be highly suspect would it not?
If this Marine were in an ethics class, you might have a point.

But you don't because he was in a gym class, with nothing showing he was doing anything pertaining to ethics.

Maybe you should be asking if this school limits PETA to visiting only 3 times a year, since that seems to be your big deal on this.

That 3 visits rule pertains to RECRUITMENT visits, not blocks of instruction as guest instructors. You have to prove recruitment efforts were made inside the class to have a point here.

[Danimal87]

Even if he was using his post as a platform from which to recruit, who cares? Serving in our nation's military should be encouraged anyways.

Whining about a three-time-per-year rule and comparing recruiters to polygamists and crazy PETA activists just shows us what Chewy thinks of our military. Not everyone is a pacifist like you.

[Chewy]

Even if he was using his post as a platform from which to recruit, who cares? Well the school seems to.


Serving in our nation's military should be encouraged anyways. A point of opinion in fact, as I stated I don’t think it should be encouraged or discouraged in schools.


Whining about a three-time-per-year rule and comparing recruiters to polygamists and crazy PETA activists just shows us what Chewy thinks of our military. Not everyone is a pacifist like you. a) for the most part I do speak well of the Military, it’s the government I take issue with b) call me a pacifist again I’ll kick your ass.... sorry I just always wanted to use that line, but no, I'm not a pacifist. I seriously don't have that internal fortitude to be one.

[Danimal87]

for the most part I do speak well of the Military, it’s the government I take issue with
Then why nitpick over things like this? If you like the military, then you can at least give them the benefit of the doubt before jumping to the conclusion that the marine recruiter was attempting to get kids into the military.

[YouEnjoyMyself]

You should never give the gov't the benefit of the doubt.

[TFS]

Well the school seems to.

No they don't. They think there was an error made in his presence not being known by the counselor who coordinates military presence at the school. They said nothing that stated they think he was recruiting.

A point of opinion in fact, as I stated I don’t think it should be encouraged or discouraged in schools.

Serving your country should always be encouraged. it's just the manner in which to do so is up for debate as individuals: "should I join the military, help at a community hospital, or what else, etc?" The options need to be made known to kids coming of age and about to enter the work force to consider because having served the country you are a citizen of, be it military, postal worker, or whatever other option you choose, gives you more appreciation for the rights you have.

Given that schools are also government institutions, I see no problem with encouraging civil service to the government in some capacity for some amount of time. It's just a matter of individuals finding the right way for themselves to serve.

a) for the most part I do speak well of the Military, it’s the government I take issue with b) call me a pacifist again I’ll kick your ass.... sorry I just always wanted to use that line, but no, I'm not a pacifist. I seriously don't have that internal fortitude to be one.

You should never give the gov't the benefit of the doubt.

One marine is HARDLY the government. Though I guess it is possible Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney all coordinated this conspiracy to turn this gym class into the next generation of supersoldiers by having a Marine brainwash them with push-ups and flutter-kicks.:rolleyes:

[GoJags]

coordinated this conspiracy to turn this gym class into the next generation of supersoldiers by having a Marine brainwash them with push-ups and flutter-kicks.:rolleyes:

Thats why the Boy Scouts were first established in Europe....1908, leading up to WWI.

seriously

[Chewy]

Thats why the Boy Scouts were first established in Europe....1908, leading up to WWI.

seriouslyLook into the Hitler Youth.


Then why nitpick over things like this? If you like the military, then you can at least give them the benefit of the doubt before jumping to the conclusion that the marine recruiter was attempting to get kids into the military.as I mentioned before students should not be distracted nor groomed for military service while in school and military recruiters should employ tactics that circumvent school rules.

[GoJags]

Look into the Hitler Youth.



Yes scary times indeed.

Link to an image of Hitler's 'Youth Program' poster:
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h284/raschafe/?action=view&current=hitleryouthprogram.jpg

Link to 1900's Boy Scouts poster:
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h284/raschafe/?action=view&current=f1bc229b.jpg

Find both posters equally intresting

[YouEnjoyMyself]

One marine is HARDLY the government. Though I guess it is possible Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney all coordinated this conspiracy to turn this gym class into the next generation of supersoldiers by having a Marine brainwash them with push-ups and flutter-kicks.:rolleyes:

Yeah good point.

Sorry I've just had some semi-militant thoughts lately.

[TFS]

Thats why the Boy Scouts were first established in Europe....1908, leading up to WWI.

seriously
Oh, please. William Dickson Boyce started the scouts after a trip to England where he encountered their scouts and was impressed at how curtious and helpful and resourceful they were. The British scouting movement was started by Lord Baden-Powell, a British war hero, however Boyce was not a military man.

He came here and started a similar program to instill qualities such as Trust, loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, curtiousness, kindness, obedience, cheerfulness, thriftiness, bravery, cleanliness, and reverence in any boy that would like to voluntarily join the program.

About the only things based off of the military are the ranking system and dress uniform. The uniforms have since strayed from each other, as the military has moved to a more jump-suit type outfit and the boy scouts have a more dress-casual type uniform. The Boy Scouts was based chiefly on Indian folk lore more than it was anything else, initially. It now focuses chiefly on teaching skills of resourcefullness both in the wild and in the civilized world, teaching things about time management and citizenship and life-saving and personal fitness. however, a chief attraction to the program is the outdoor extreme activities such as 50-mile hikes in the mountains, sailing in the ocean for a couple of weeks, and several other things located all through out the nation.

I know all this. I'm an eagle Scout. I've done everything there is in Boy Scouts. It is NOT military to say the least. It's a simple extra-curricular program that teaches skills that are to be utilized for survival. Unlike the Hitler youth, there was never any mandatory involvement in the Scouts.

And your posters had very little in common.

[GoJags]

Oh, please. William Dickson Boyce started the scouts after a trip to England where he encountered their scouts and was impressed at how curtious and helpful and resourceful they were. The British scouting movement was started by Lord Baden-Powell, a British war hero, however Boyce was not a military man.

He came here and started a similar program to instill qualities such as Trust, loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, curtiousness, kindness, obedience, cheerfulness, thriftiness, bravery, cleanliness, and reverence in any boy that would like to voluntarily join the program.

About the only things based off of the military are the ranking system and dress uniform. The uniforms have since strayed from each other, as the military has moved to a more jump-suit type outfit and the boy scouts have a more dress-casual type uniform. The Boy Scouts was based chiefly on Indian folk lore more than it was anything else, initially. It now focuses chiefly on teaching skills of resourcefullness both in the wild and in the civilized world, teaching things about time management and citizenship and life-saving and personal fitness. however, a chief attraction to the program is the outdoor extreme activities such as 50-mile hikes in the mountains, sailing in the ocean for a couple of weeks, and several other things located all through out the nation.

I know all this. I'm an eagle Scout. I've done everything there is in Boy Scouts. It is NOT military to say the least. It's a simple extra-curricular program that teaches skills that are to be utilized for survival. Unlike the Hitler youth, there was never any mandatory involvement in the Scouts.

And your posters had very little in common.

Oh please. If you knew a little History you would know that I was talking about the British Scouts, hince the name Sir Baden- Powell on the image you think has no resemblance to that of hitlers.

I will point out one obvious similarity in the two posters: both boys are looking up to a war icon.

Sorry, I dont get my History information from Google, it comes directly from a Ph.D. Graduate.

[sparrky]

Ummm, We have two marines come and teach a physical ed class every tuesday in my high school. If your in any type of p.e. class, you do what marines say that day. or you lose credit. we also have a permanent army table set up right by the "tiger tile" (center of the school) and i'm constantly given handouts, flyers et cetera. its gets really annoying.

Tuesday is commonly referred to as "boot camp day" and I doubt there is little difference.

[GoJags]

^^^ lol what state do you live in???

[sparrky]

idaho....:(

[GoJags]

idaho....:(
So your school administrators allow two marines come in and teach PE everyday? What is it that they teach you guys??

I wonder if these marine have proper teaching certificates?

Idaho, never been......nice place, lots to do? :rolleyes: :D

[sparrky]

No not everyday, every tuesday. Each tuesday they come in and teach the PE class's instead of the regular PE teachers.


And its not as bad as you think, at least not where i live, which is a small to medium sized city (50,000)

[GoJags]

Yeah Im sure its not too bad, I used to live in a city of that size in Ohio for 10 years.....now I live in one that has about a million.

Has anyone made a fuss about them comming in and doing the class?
Is it any different then what your actual PE teacher does everyday?
How long have they been doing this?

[.Communist]

Free Marine training? I'm in....

I'm not stupid enough to join, though, but if they want to teach me to kill for free, and I can opt out at any time....... i'm totally in.

[TFS]

HoJags, congrats on your PhD source. I was actually in it, thanks, not a google search on that info. I know it by heart and experienced the program first-hand. I'll gladly take first-hand experience over what some PhD would like to believe is true.

Ummm, We have two marines come and teach a physical ed class every tuesday in my high school. If your in any type of p.e. class, you do what marines say that day. or you lose credit. we also have a permanent army table set up right by the "tiger tile" (center of the school) and i'm constantly given handouts, flyers et cetera. its gets really annoying.

Tuesday is commonly referred to as "boot camp day" and I doubt there is little difference.
You're full of shit. Your little table thing with those recruiters is easily ignored. They can't FORCE their flyers into your hand. You just blow right past them and they can't do anything. You're not constantly given anything. You're constantly taking things you don't have to. If you think that's annoying wait til college where some retard fringe group is always on campus trying to hand out flyers for student awareness of every little damn thing imagineable. Most flyer givers aren't military either. They're the leftist student groups that think organizing a get-together to watch a video about the great injustices of Rwanda "to raise student awareness" equates doing something to solve the problem when they don't even have some sort of donation plan to fund a group to counter said acts over there.

And to think they put you through the same stuff they put recruits through at boot camp is silly as fuck, dude. That's almost too laughable to take seriously. If they did, anyone significantly out of shape would be passed out from dehydration and exhaustion.

[LimpPimped]

.
The class is voluntary, my issue is if they use a class disguised as a recruiting tool. They should be distinct and with parent’s permission. IMO. Thoughts?

I thought you argued in the Conservative parents freak out thread (http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=134609) that introducing children to homosexuality in class did not require parental notification. In that case it was young children in a non-voluntary situation. In this case it is high school kids in a voluntary situation.

Why the difference? Why do the parents in one situation have the right of notification and the parents in the other don't? It just seems a bit hypocritical. Or did you end up agreeing that the parents in the other thread should have been notified, and I completely missed that?

My personal opinion in this case is that if kids are going to get out of a normal class to go to training offered by someone that isn't a school employee then the parents should be notified.

[Chewy]

I thought you argued in the Conservative parents freak out thread (http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=134609) that introducing children to homosexuality in class did not require parental notification. In that case it was young children in a non-voluntary situation. In this case it is high school kids in a voluntary situation.

Why the difference? Why do the parents in one situation have the right of notification and the parents in the other don't? It just seems a bit hypocritical. Or did you end up agreeing that the parents in the other thread should have been notified, and I completely missed that?
They are two very different situations, mostly due to age groups. That being stated I’d have no issue with a teacher for example reading a story about a Marine that lived happily ever after in the Marine Corps. I’d have no issue with little Johnny bring his dad in Full dress into his classroom for “What Parent’s do for Work day”. I have no issue with teaching young people that the Marines exist and they are normal people.

My issue is Marine Recruiters circumventing the school policy.

[TFS]

They are two very different situations, mostly due to age groups. That being stated I’d have no issue with a teacher for example reading a story about a Marine that lived happily ever after in the Marine Corps. I’d have no issue with little Johnny bring his dad in Full dress into his classroom for “What Parent’s do for Work day”. I have no issue with teaching young people that the Marines exist and they are normal people.

My issue is Marine Recruiters circumventing the school policy.
You're right they are different, one is voluntary the other is mandatory.

And reading books about marines living happily ever after in the core is better propoganda than having one as a guest instructor lead a gym class in PT.

Again, there is not any proof he circumvented anything. He showed up to teach a gym class. That is very different from showing up to recruit people. You are accusing him of recruiting but have offered no evidence of such beyond presence, which doesn't prove a damn thing. If you see all the emos outside a movie theater, your initial, conditioned reaction might be they're there to see a movie, but reality is they're there just to loiter. Presence does not prove intent.

I'll ask you again: Did he trade contact information during class time?

Did he hand out flyers or info pamphlets or business cards promoting the military?

If he did not, then he did not act as a recruiter. And don't try to give me that "the school thinks so" line again, because there is no proof the school does think so. The school is upset with its own staff as to why a Marine was on campus without the proper counselor knowing about it to determine if it counted as one of the three recruiting visits alloted.

By your reasoning thus far, if the high school had a "what does your dad do for work" day, and someone's dad came in in full uniform, it would take up one of those visits despite him not being there as a recruiter.

This is all very hypocritical of you: kids should not be exposed to a set of values without parents knowing is what you say when it involves the military in high school (where a huge focus exists on career opportunities and exploring options like that in general anyway), but if it's about homosexuality in grade school, it's ok without prior notification.

[troxy18]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635564/posts
Site with some more info from what appears to be the same article topic and with comments
Participation in East's gym classes was voluntary and about 30 percent of students declined to participate, Harris said.

Those who did participate had to sign a Marines liability waiver, and the form included a place for interested students to provide their addresses and phone numbers.

The waiver forms, which state that participants "have full knowledge of the rigors" of the activities, should have been sent home to parents before the class, said Sgt. Roman Yurek, spokesman for the Marine recruiting station in Milwaukee.
I hate to show you wrong TFS but the recruiter had the students take home "liability waivers" with their info on them which the recruiter will probably add to his contact database. Also chewy you are wrong comparing the marines to PETA and other groups, the Marines are experts in the field of physical training, while if PETA was to conduct an ethics class it would undoubtedly be tainted towards their views of kentucky fried cruelty or whatever.

[LimpPimped]

They are two very different situations, mostly due to age groups. That being stated I’d have no issue with a teacher for example reading a story about a Marine that lived happily ever after in the Marine Corps. I’d have no issue with little Johnny bring his dad in Full dress into his classroom for “What Parent’s do for Work day”. I have no issue with teaching young people that the Marines exist and they are normal people.

My issue is Marine Recruiters circumventing the school policy.

In your original post you stated that the parents of the high school kids should have been notified. Which I agree with.

That said, it still comes across as hypocritical when you say that the parents of young children do not have the right to be notified that mandatory class time will be spent on a controversial topic. While arguing that the parents of high school kids do have the right to be notified that there is a voluntary class taught by a Marine.

Again, I agree that there should be parental notification. I just believe if you want notification in one scenario then you should be ok with notification in the other.

[Chewy]

That said, it still comes across as hypocritical when you say that the parents of young children do not have the right to be notified that mandatory class time will be spent on a controversial topic. While arguing that the parents of high school kids do have the right to be notified that there is a voluntary class taught by a Marine. I have no issue with the topic my issue lies with the Marine Recruiters employing tactics that allow them into schools and collect information on young people that circumvents the school allotment of three visits per year. Like I stated before the topic that Marines are real people and they do exist is not an issue. Using underhanded tactics is.

Also chewy you are wrong comparing the marines to PETA and other groups, the Marines are experts in the field of physical training, while if PETA was to conduct an ethics class it would undoubtedly be tainted towards their views of kentucky fried cruelty or whatever.
You don’t feel that the Marines would taint their program with their views? The potential for both is present hence the conflict.

[Master. kirby]

what you fail to understand is that marines are specialists in physical fitness, there is a problem in America that has to do with physical fitness, by any means having marines teach PE is one the obvious solutions.

[Chewy]

what you fail to understand is that marines are specialists in physical fitness, there is a problem in America that has to do with physical fitness, by any means having marines teach PE is one the obvious solutions. What you choose to ignore is these are Marine Recruiters there is a conflict of interest.

[Burningnun]

Maybe it would seem a little less fishy if the guys doing it weren't recruiters. Although to be honest, a couple of people being asked to join the military would be a small price for America (or any country) to lose its fatass image.

[PitwrkzZ1]

What you choose to ignore is these are Marine Recruiters there is a conflict of interest.
They were there to teach PE, not to recruit.

[Chewy]

They were there to teach PE, not to recruit.
Hire a gym teacher then.

[PitwrkzZ1]

Hire a gym teacher then.
Let me rephrase that. They were brought in to teach a gym class, not recruit :rolleyes:

[Chewy]

Let me rephrase that. They were brought in to teach a gym class, not recruit :rolleyes:

Then why send Recruiters and collect information on the youth?
It would have been more appropriate to hire a Gym teacher to teach gym, I see no valid reason to object to having Gym taught by Gym teachers?

[PitwrkzZ1]

Then why send Recruiters and collect information on the youth?
Where did it say they were collecting information?
It would have been more appropriate to hire a Gym teacher to teach gym, I see no valid reason to object to having Gym taught by Gym teachers?
They are not teaching gym full time, they went in for 1 day and did some workouts with the kids. Then the gym class would go back to the gym teachers.

[Chewy]

Where did it say they were collecting information?

Those who did participate had to sign a Marines liability waiver, and the form included a place for interested students to provide their addresses and phone numbershttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635564/posts


They are not teaching gym full time, they went in for 1 day and did some workouts with the kids. Then the gym class would go back to the gym teachers. They brought in recruiters .That's why the school shut them down. They used Gym as a means to do so.

[PitwrkzZ1]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635564/posts
Thats a bit ambigious. Did they force them to provide information?
They brought in recruiters .That's why the school shut them down. They used Gym as a means to do so.
I'll say it again. Thay were teaching PE, not recruiting.

[Chewy]

Thats a bit ambigious. Did they force them to provide information?They have to sign the waivers to take part in that program.

I'll say it again. Thay were teaching PE, not recruiting. I'll offer it to you again, recruiters have protocol for entering into these schools, and they also have limitations placed on them in doing so. I don’t care if they teach first aid or how to make brownies, they breached those protocols.
Do you not see any value in a Marine following rules?

They have no business being there.

If the Gym class needs some reform then make the Gym teacher meet those expectations, I seriously doubt that those Marines as in good shape as they are, are trained and certified educators in working with children.

[PitwrkzZ1]

They have to sign the waivers to take part in that program. But were they forced to provide the information? Could they leave that blank?
I'll offer it to you again, recruiters have protocol for entering into these schools, and they also have limitations placed on them in doing so. I don’t care if they teach first aid or how to make brownies, they breached those protocols.
Do you not see any value in a Marine following rules?

Can I see these protocols? You seem to have a comprehensive understanting of them...
From what I know, they are aloweed to enter the school 3 times a year to recruit. They were not recruiting.

[TFS]

I hate to show you wrong TFS but the recruiter had the students take home "liability waivers" with their info on them which the recruiter will probably add to his contact database. Also chewy you are wrong comparing the marines to PETA and other groups, the Marines are experts in the field of physical training, while if PETA was to conduct an ethics class it would undoubtedly be tainted towards their views of kentucky fried cruelty or whatever.
I don't think they're supposed to take information from liability waivers for other purposes than to express waiving liability for that event unless they had permission from the students to do so. And if it was somewhere on the waivers that they were going to use the info for other purposes and they were signed, that is the fault of the students and the parents, not the marines.

I still have yet to see where they were forced to listen to a speel about the merits of military life and joining up.

I have yet to see proof that they were forced to participate at all.

The source Chewy provides shows that giving that information was optional and not required fields to be filled in on those waivers.

I'm assuming not all of these students were 18, meaning their parents had to sign the waivers ahead of time for them to participate anyway. It's safe to assume that anyone that did participate, since waivers had to be signed to do so, was either of legal age to make that decision themselves or their parent had to be informed of Marine presence and ok with it, or the signatures were forged and the kids are the problem that needs to be addressed, not the Marines being present.

The kids that didn't participate or have waivers signed may not have informed their parents until after the fact, but that is not the fault of the Marines if waivers were sent home to be signed in order to participate. That is the fault of the kids not informing their parents, and if anything definitely not a recruitment tactic since they are explicitly excluding people who failed to properly inform their parents of their presence.

If them being there is such an issue, I'd think at least one of the parents that whose kid showed him the waiver and told him what was going to happen would have called the school before hand.

[Cousin Eddie]

I dont know about you all..... but the military recruiters I have encountered were pretty agressive & seemed like they are under serious pressure to recruit.

Remember the controversy a while back with recruiters basically intimidating & hoodwinking ignorant kids into signing up?

A military recruiter teaching ANY class would be suspect.

[Chewy]

But were they forced to provide the information? Could they leave that blank? Did they need to ask those questions or collect that data?


Can I see these protocols? You seem to have a comprehensive understanting of them...
From what I know, they are aloweed to enter the school 3 times a year to recruit. They were not recruiting.
Representatives from the military, as well as prospective employers and college representatives, can visit high schools three times a year, according to Madison School Board policy. It doesn't matter if they are recruiting actively or not… representatives from the Military can only come three times a year. That's the school policy. Further more...
At East, military recruiters can only visit when college representatives are also present and parents are notified in advance, said guidance counselor David Hoppe. He coordinates visits by the military and said he didn't know about the gym classes until afterward.


I dont know about you all..... but the military recruiters I have encountered were pretty agressive & seemed like they are under serious pressure to recruit. Yeah I watched a group in action at a Best Buy in California, made Jehovah’s Witness look subtle.

[TFS]

I dont know about you all..... but the military recruiters I have encountered were pretty agressive & seemed like they are under serious pressure to recruit.

Remember the controversy a while back with recruiters basically intimidating & hoodwinking ignorant kids into signing up?

A military recruiter teaching ANY class would be suspect.
Care to be a little more specific?

We all hear these horror stories, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually knows of a case of this happening. It's always been hearsay like urban legends every time it's come up. No one knows any names, and no one knows any dates.

It's so easy just to sit there and say "the military's preying on dumb kids and tricking them into signing their lives away...blah, blah, blah" but I have yet to see any cases where anyone was tricked. Everyone wants to demonize the military simply because of it being the military. It holds a stigmata of fear to a lot of people and then stories get made up that sound reasonable, but lack factual evidence, all just to reinforce the stigmata.

[YouEnjoyMyself]

I never had military recruiters talk to me :(

[david_slupper]

But were they forced to provide the information? Could they leave that blank?


Or you can give them false info. That's what I always do when recruiters approach me. I just don't want to be rough on them, nor do I want them calling my house. So, I always put a different phone number and address.

[Chewy]

Or you can give them false info. That's what I always do when recruiters approach me. I just don't want to be rough on them, nor do I want them calling my house. So, I always put a different phone number and address.
What they were supposed to do was send it home to the kid’s folks first. They also failed make sure that was done.

[Cousin Eddie]

I never had military recruiters talk to me :(

I sure as fucking hell did! And it was in 1991. They were extremely agressive .... & knew a lot about me.... where I worked, lived, home phone # etc.etc. They wouldnt take no for a fucking answer..... they all just wanted to sit down with me (and my parents) to talk about my "options". They even pissed my parents off with their harassment and my father was a marine in WII!



Care to be a little more specific?

We all hear these horror stories, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually knows of a case of this happening. It's always been hearsay like urban legends every time it's come up. No one knows any names, and no one knows any dates.

It's so easy just to sit there and say "the military's preying on dumb kids and tricking them into signing their lives away...blah, blah, blah" but I have yet to see any cases where anyone was tricked. Everyone wants to demonize the military simply because of it being the military. It holds a stigmata of fear to a lot of people and then stories get made up that sound reasonable, but lack factual evidence, all just to reinforce the stigmata.



This shit was on the national news and newspapers across the country.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/national/main696991.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/10/eveningnews/main694345.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/02/eveningnews/main692497.shtml

[kevinsmith]

Sorry I came into this late.
The little girl was whining because they had to do "pushups." Well shit, honey, I'm sorry you had to do *gas* EXCERCISE in PE. God forbid you build some muscle instead of becoming like the rest of our complacent youth who's only muscle is the one that takes the foot to the mouth.
Anyone here not still in school, remember when there was some emphasis on PHYSICAL activity in physical education. It was still like that when I was in school although it was starting to change.
As for the recruitment part, if he wasn't saying join the military, then calm down. If so, that's BS to sneak it in like that.

[Chewy]

Sorry I came into this late.
The little girl was whining because they had to do "pushups." Well shit, honey, I'm sorry you had to do *gas* EXCERCISE in PE. God forbid you build some muscle instead of becoming like the rest of our complacent youth who's only muscle is the one that takes the foot to the mouth.
Anyone here not still in school, remember when there was some emphasis on PHYSICAL activity in physical education. It was still like that when I was in school although it was starting to change. I have no objection toward PE, none. It's not an issue.




As for the recruitment part, if he wasn't saying join the military, then calm down. If so, that's BS to sneak it in like that. The military knows the rules on how they can take part in the school programs they choose to ignore them. They should follow the rules if nothing more than setting an example.

[Liberator13]

Maybe I missed something, but maybe he didn't come in as a Marine, but as a physical education expert. Sure, maybe he didn't have some degree on it, but the Marines I know sure as hell understand what physical education is and how to get the most out of it at a healthy rate.

[sparrky]

The marines teaching the PE classes aren't all that goes on. for graduation you are required to take 1 credit of health right? and one week during the trimester they bring in the same marines that teach the PE classes on tuesday. during this week you are informed about local ROTC crap, how the army can pay for college, then at the end of the week you watch a slide show put together by the marines. It basically has some pictures of troops and iraqis working together, rebuilding buildings, all the good stuff. then it moves onto the story of some kid who had the army pay for his college blah blah blah. then at the end of the video you are givin a pice of paper, on this paper there are questions such as; Did you find this video informative? are you planning on going to college? would you ever join the ROTC program? then there is a section requesting personal info, but at the bottom there is a little box you can check saying "i'm not interested in recieving anything from you guys" basically. and guess what happened? all my friends that checked the box, regularly get shit from these guys in the mail, e-mail, phone calls, you name it. good thing i filled out fake contact information.

[TFS]

What they were supposed to do was send it home to the kid’s folks first. They also failed make sure that was done.
Waivers have to be signed by legal adults. Unless all these kids were 18, the waivers had to be sent home ahead of time to be signed by parents.

If they were 18, you still have no rhyme or reason to be upset.

Libby raises an interesting point. Was he in any sort of Marine-sanctioned uniform?

You have yet to answer my previous questions still:

Did he trade contact information to be used for recruiting purposes? Putting the info on a waiver does not count because it can't be used except for the purposes expressed on the waiver, which typically are for the case of an emergancy.

Did he actively promote joining the military while in the class room?

[Chewy]

Waivers have to be signed by legal adults. Unless all these kids were 18, the waivers had to be sent home ahead of time to be signed by parents.That was an issue .. from the article.

The waiver forms, which state that participants "have full knowledge of the rigors" of the activities, should have been sent home to parents before the class, said Sgt. Roman Yurek, spokesman for the Marine recruiting station in Milwaukee. He said the forms the students filled out will be returned to the school Monday.


Libby raises an interesting point. Was he in any sort of Marine-sanctioned uniform? It's not a point it's a speculation.
The facts are they were Marines, they brought recruiters, proper contact with parents was an issue and they did follow school protocol.



You have yet to answer my previous questions still:

Did he trade contact information to be used for recruiting purposes? Putting the info on a waiver does not count because it can't be used except for the purposes expressed on the waiver, which typically are for the case of an emergancy. The article doesn’t state anything other there was concern for the potential for that that to occur. Now answer my question

Should a Marine acting as a role model follow the rules?

[TFS]

It's not a point it's a speculation.
The facts are they were Marines, they brought recruiters, proper contact with parents was an issue and they did follow school protocol.
I'll give you the contact thing, but if they were not in uniform they were not recruiting or promoting/representing the Marines.

So answer my question: were they in uniform?

The article doesn’t state anything other there was concern for the potential for that that to occur. Now answer my question

Potential, not that there was. The article expresses a concern in the breakdown in coordination in its own system. it would be obvious if the guy acted as a recruiter in that class, but it's not stated that he was. Flyers and pamphlets and business cards would have been given out, someone would have something with this guy's name on it that would prove it. Without that proof, you have no right to assume it happened: innocent until proven guilty. Without that proof, it's the Marine's word vs the word of whatever kids were present and unless the kids have their story straight and all agree there was recruiting taking place, I'm gonna be taking the Marine's word over theirs.

Should a Marine acting as a role model follow the rules?
He should. But you have yet to prove this was a recruitment visit. If it wasn't, that rule still should have been considered just to clear up any confusion between this and a recruiting visit, but hindsight's 20-20. You only have a case here if it indeed was a recruitment visit. If not, it's a bunch of fuss over nothing.

You have yet to establish recruitment attempts were made.

One girl complaining about them making kids that consented to participate do push-ups and being whiney about him yelling "marine-like" (which she has no fucking clue) does not equate recruiting being conducted.

[NTR]

She said the Marine recruiters had students do exercises such as push-ups, and she said they yelled at students "totally Marine-style."
qtf? are our youths today too lazy to do a few pushups? Don't like being yelled at? That's what every PE class is about!

[Chewy]

So answer my question: were they in uniform? Were they identified as US Marines? The article doesn't mention if they were dressed in full garb or clown suits with rooster-dink-pink afros….it’s irrelevant, they were Marine recruiters and breaking the schools protocols.



Potential, not that there was. The article expresses a concern in the breakdown in coordination in its own system. it would be obvious if the guy acted as a recruiter in that class, but it's not stated that he was. Flyers and pamphlets and business cards would have been given out, someone would have something with this guy's name on it that would prove it. Without that proof, you have no right to assume it happened: innocent until proven guilty. Without that proof, it's the Marine's word vs the word of whatever kids were present and unless the kids have their story straight and all agree there was recruiting taking place, I'm gonna be taking the Marine's word over theirs. Again an irrelevant argument what’s the schools protocols for Military involvement in the school? Should they be expected to follow that? Did the school make a mistake? Yep. then they corrected it.

He should. Yep. They should respect teh schools policy.

[sparrky]

I don't know about the article in question, but at my school they are always in uniform.

[TFS]

Were they identified as US Marines? The article doesn't mention if they were dressed in full garb or clown suits with rooster-dink-pink afros….it’s irrelevant, they were Marine recruiters and breaking the schools protocols.

It's very relevant. It doesn't matter if they're identified as Marines. What matters is what they do in the class. Did they recruit or not? Were they in uniform? Those are crucial elements to this. Recruiters are not allowed to recruit out of uniform. Even if they are in uniform, you still have to have established and undeniable proof that they were recruiting instead of just teaching PE.

You have yet to establish the possibility of recruiting by being in uniform, and you have yet to establish recruiting by doing more than teaching the class as guest instructors.

Again an irrelevant argument what’s the schools protocols for Military involvement in the school? Should they be expected to follow that? Did the school make a mistake? Yep. then they corrected it.

Yep. They should respect teh schools policy.

It's very relevant. You admit right there in your own statement that the school took responsibility for the miscommunication.

Yes, the Marines should follow the protocol, IF THEY'RE RECRUITING. That's what it all hinges on. If they didn't recruit, it does not apply for one of those three recruiting visits. The gym teacher that invited them is actually thr most responsible for this mix-up because out of anyone he knew the most on both ends what was taking place. He is aware of the protocol and should have made it known to that counselor that marines would be present, but not in a recruiting capacity, thus not applicable to that 3-visit rule. If anyone's fault this mostly falls on him.

Them being recruiters when on duty is coincidental. You have to establish that recruitment took place to even have a case here. A good starting point would be if they were in uniform or not, and then from there, what all did they give them in terms of flyers and pamphlets needs to be considered. If nothing, you have no case. If something, was it recruitment brochures or flyers about the merits of a physically fit life style and maybe guidelines for a workout regimen?

All these details you are lacking and ignoring and yet you still try to place blame on the Marines for breaking rules that the gym teacher who invited them knew about. Apparently the gym teacher did not seem to think their visit entailed anything that fell under the guidelines of that rule.

Shit, do we even know if these recruiters had been to that school before or since in a recruitment capacity or if they are assigned to go to a different school or stay in the recruitment office and only went there because they happened to know the gym teacher outside of both their professions? That's another important detail.

[Chewy]

It's very relevant. It doesn't matter if they're identified as Marines. What's the rule? 3 times a year in the school.





It's very relevant. You admit right there in your own statement that the school took responsibility for the miscommunication. Yeah that was how it played out, you don’t think recruiters know the rules too? Do they not have an obligation to follow those rules?

[TFS]

What's the rule? 3 times a year in the school.

By that logic, if a military personnel has a child in that school and needs to come pick him up, even if he's not in uniform, his mere presence counts toward that rule. imagine how many students in any given school have parents in the military. Maybe they shouldn't take an interest in their kid's education then, eh?:rolleyes:

Of course the rule applies directly to recruitment efforts, chewy, it's common sense. if you apply that rule the way you talk about, those parents would be put at huge inconveniences.

Yeah that was how it played out, you don’t think recruiters know the rules too? Do they not have an obligation to follow those rules?

Don't you think it's possible this Marine asked and the gym teacher said he would take care of it and never did? People forget to do things sometimes. It's the gym teacher's fault. It was not intentional, and you're making something of nothing.

Again, you dodge my questions: was he in uniform?

Did he hand out recruitment information?

What all did he discuss in the class?

Who is saying he was acting as a recruiter instead of coincidentally being one but not acting as one on that day?



Keep dodging them. It only shows how much you're simply making something of a miscommunication between the gym teacher and the counselor. The school already said this was pretty much the case and said nothing of any fault being on the Marine. There's no reason for your witch-hunt unless you are a little more anti-military than you previously stated. You really are bordering on flat-out paranoia.

Notice how I do not delete parts of your posts? it prevents me from intentionally dodging questions or arguments you pose. You might want to try it...unless you have some aversion to actually addressing my arguments instead of paraphrasing parts of my posts that serve your purposes.

[Chewy]

By that logic, if a military personnel has a child in that school and needs to come pick him up, even if he's not in uniform, his mere presence counts toward that rule. imagine how many students in any given school have parents in the military. Maybe they shouldn't take an interest in their kid's education then, eh?:rolleyes:

Of course the rule applies directly to recruitment efforts, chewy, it's common sense. if you apply that rule the way you talk about, those parents would be put at huge inconveniences.a slight flair for the dramatic... here's the rule:

Representatives from the military, as well as prospective employers and college representatives, can visit high schools three times a year, according to Madison School Board policy.

At East, military recruiters can only visit when college representatives are also present and parents are notified in advance, said guidance counselor David Hoppe. He coordinates visits by the military and said he didn't know about the gym classes until afterward.
This was clearly not done and a breach of policy. Why you insist on tossing up strawmen to up hold your arguements is beyound me.



Don't you think it's possible this Marine asked and the gym teacher said he would take care of it and never did? People forget to do things sometimes. It's the gym teacher's fault. It was not intentional, and you're making something of nothing. You seem to think that Military recruiters are not aware of the rules and guidelines set forth by them by the school boards in their area.


Again, you dodge my questions: was he in uniform?

Did he hand out recruitment information?

What all did he discuss in the class? You are cycling your argument here I already addressed this. It makes no difference what he was wearing, the kids knew he was a Marine.

[TFS]

a slight flair for the dramatic... here's the rule:


This was clearly not done and a breach of policy. Why you insist on tossing up strawmen to up hold your arguements is beyound me.

It's not dramatic. You're trying to suggest this applies without even having proof he was representing the military in this visit. He could have very easily just been representing fitness awareness and just happen to have gotten his knowledge from being a Marine.

You seem to think that Military recruiters are not aware of the rules and guidelines set forth by them by the school boards in their area.

I'm saying the same thing the school is saying: it was an internal miscommunication, not the recruiter's fault. The teacher that invited him also knew the rules and should have enforced them. You have offered no proof to show the Marine did not know his visit was cleared through the school by the gym teacher.

You are cycling your argument here I already addressed this. It makes no difference what he was wearing, the kids knew he was a Marine.

That's not addressing them, I'm not asking if the kids knew he was a Marine. I'm asking if he was in uniform and if he peddled enlistment flyers and what all he talked to them about in the class.

If I go to a high school and they know I'm say a Dentist and I go to give a guest lecture on oral hygene for a health class, does that automatically make me recruiting dentists?

If I'm an engineer and I go give a presentation of structural blueprinting to a drafting class, am I automatically recruiting engineers?

Not at all. I'm simply a person the teacher knows who has an expert understanding of subject matter pertinent to the class's current lessons and it's interesting and refreshing to have a different face addressing the class once in a while. The Marine knew about work-out routines, making him a perfect candidate as a guest instructor. Just by being a Marine does not mean he was actively recruiting that day. Your witch hunt is pointless.

[Chewy]

It's not dramatic. You're trying to suggest this applies without even having proof he was representing the military in this visit. He could have very easily just been representing fitness awareness and just happen to have gotten his knowledge from being a Marine.Reality here:wave: just checking in.... review

Those who did participate had to sign a Marines liability waiver, and the form included a place for interested students to provide their addresses and phone numbers.



I'm saying the same thing the school is saying:
The Marine recruiter set them up.

The classes were arranged through the school's physical education department by Marine recruiting Sgt. Frederick Hutchinson.

[TFS]

Reality here:wave: just checking in.... review

We already went over that, smart guy. They cannot use the information on those waivers for anything but the expressed usage outlined ON the waiver.

It's standard for that kind of information to be requested on any liability waiver for points of emergancy contact in case of an accident occuring during expressed activity.

They can NOT take that information and use it for recruiting purposes.

The Marine recruiter set them up.
No. You're the only one saying that. The Marine had to coordinate with at least the gym teachers to arrange this, who also knew the rules, and were also responsible for checking to make sure this was cleared. The school even said it was an internal miscommunication, meaning it was a problem between their own faculty, which does not include the Marine.

Now answer those three questions I've typed out so many times, because whether he was recruiting or not hinges on those three bits of information simply because he can NOT recruit while not in uniform. It's not allowed and he'd lose his job.

If he was in uniform but did not hand out any enlistment information or trade contact information aside from purposes of liability waivers, he is not guilty of recruiting.

If he did not talk about enlisting in the class and benefits there-in, he is not guilty of recruiting.

Until you can establish any of these, you have no case.

Keep going in circles, because nothings funnier than a dizzy wookie.

[Chewy]

We already went over that, smart guy. They cannot use the information on those waivers for anything but the expressed usage outlined ON the waiver. ahhh you are missing the point.... your argument about Marines being identifying them as Marines or not is addressed in that statement, they signed Marine Wavers hence identifying them as Marines.

Now you can continue to manufacture strawmen and odd questions, or you can provide something to support your claims and queries. You have failed repeated in doing so yet keep directing me to prove you wrong… very odd tactic. I prefer to stick to the facts without hypothesizing anything.

A Marine Recruiter introduced this program to the PE faculty.
It was embraced without consulting school protocols.
Marines facilitated this program, some were recruiters.
They identified themselves as Marines.
It was dumped because of the potential for it to be used as a recruiting tool and it breached school policy.

Those are my claims. Feel free to prove those wrong or accept them as being factual.

[baumy300]

I'm on no ones side, so let me say this:

Find me a recruiter who "Isn't a recruiter" for one day at a high school, and I will quit posting.

The recruiters I had took every chance they could get to con kids into joining up. Especially the Marine recruiters. They are a recruiter 24/7 and nothing else. Don't kid yourselves, he knew exactly what he wanted to do there. And it wasnt teaching PE.

[TFS]

ahhh you are missing the point.... your argument about Marines being identifying them as Marines or not is addressed in that statement, they signed Marine Wavers hence identifying them as Marines.

Still have yet to establish that they were in uniform (required to recruit) or peddled enlistment benefits and information either on flyers or verbally.

Being identified as a soldier does not constitute being in uniform. I'm identified as a soldier, but am seldom in uniform. I only act as a military engineer when in uniform, likewise these guys are only allowed to act as Marine recruiters when in uniform. Identifying them as Marines could be as simple as them telling the class they are Marines to reinforce that they know what they're talking about when it comes to personal fitness.

Marines always have to have waivers signed to teach physical things to non-marines because they themselves are considered lethal weapons. No matter how non-lethal they intend to have the block of instruction be, it is for their own protection from lawsuits in case someone fucks themselves up while in their block of instruction. The waivers have nothing to do with recruiting.

Now you can continue to manufacture strawmen and odd questions, or you can provide something to support your claims and queries. You have failed repeated in doing so yet keep directing me to prove you wrong… very odd tactic. I prefer to stick to the facts without hypothesizing anything.

I have failed at nothing. You have failed to answer questions that will settle beyond a shadow of a doubt if recruitment efforts were made. I've made no claims, but have merely cited other possibilities. You are the one that's claiming things.

The fact you are sticking to is one you assumed without knowing all the circumstances. That is that you claim they broke protocol and were recruiting. You have not proven the conditions that prove either of these definitely occured. The school has not placed blame on the Marine for breaking protocol and they know the situation better than you, but you seem to be content saying he did without knowing everything they do.

They're simple questions, chewy, that establish the very possibility of what you are suggesting. If you can't answer them yet keep on going with your claim, you are hunting witches pure and simple.

A Marine Recruiter introduced this program to the PE faculty.
It was embraced without consulting school protocols.
Marines facilitated this program, some were recruiters.
They identified themselves as Marines.
It was dumped because of the potential for it to be used as a recruiting tool and it breached school policy.

It was embraced by the gym teachers, who knew the protocol at least as well as the Marine, and they failed to direct him to the counselor, but instead invited him in. That's the gym teacher's failure to follow protocol, not the Marine's.

You mention potential, but nothing of it actually occuring. If Marines facilitate it, and some happen to be recruiters, that is circumstantial and proves nothing. Technically all military personnel are in recruiting.

Those are my claims. Feel free to prove those wrong or accept them as being factual.

You need to prove that recruitment actually occured before passing sentence as if it has. You can't call fowl on potential to commit an act.

Answer my questions: were they in uniform? Did they peddle enlistment information? If no to those, then they were just guest instructors just as harmless as any other guest instructor in any other field in any other classroom.

[Chewy]

Still have yet to establish that they were in uniform (required to recruit) or peddled enlistment benefits and information either on flyers or verbally.So now it's my job to prove your claims??

These are my claims.
Originally Posted by Chewy
A Marine Recruiter introduced this program to the PE faculty.
It was embraced without consulting school protocols.
Marines facilitated this program, some were recruiters.
They identified themselves as Marines.
It was dumped because of the potential for it to be used as a recruiting tool and it breached school policy.


If you have other backward theories I you need to support them and stop drafting up three pages of gibberish to camouflage the fact you have no leg to stand on.

[TFS]

Funny how me just asking those questions somehow equates to wanting you to prove claims when all I'm requesting is crucial information I need to create claims at all.

I'm asking you to prove your own claims by filling in those holes I pointed out.

Nice spin, though. You got a future in federal politics.



A Marine Recruiter introduced this program to the PE faculty.

Nothing wrong with this at all

It was embraced without consulting school protocols.

Fault of the gym teacher that allowed it to happen. He could have easily turned them away without the counselor's approval, but didn't. Whether the Marines know the protocol or not is moot if the school's own faculty fail to enforce it. That's how the school is treating it: a breakdown of INTERNAL communitcation.

Marines facilitated this program, some were recruiters.

Facilitating it is a duh since they thought it up. Recruiters working on it is not proof one way or another of anything. Recruiters can be fitness honchos too.

They identified themselves as Marines.

Proves nothing but that they know what it they're talking about when it comes to physical fitness. Have you ever seen an out-of-shape Marine? If someone gives you work-out advice aren't you more likely to listen if you know they're a Marine? A question that rises here is did they identify themselves as recruiters? If not, them being Marines proves no fowl play.

It was dumped because of the potential for it to be used as a recruiting tool and it breached school policy.

Funny, cause I distinctly recall reading that the class took place and it was not a permanent deal. Just a one time thing and that participation was not required.



I addressed your points for your witch hunt, so now please, answer me those questions: were they in uniform, did they peddle recruitment info, and did they even identify themselves as recruiters?

[Chewy]

Funny how me just asking those questions somehow equates to wanting you to prove claims when all I'm requesting is crucial information I need to create claims at all.

I'm asking you to prove your own claims by filling in those holes I pointed out.

Nice spin, though. You got a future in federal politics.
There is no spin?? I asked if you can dispute those facts. You didn't.


Funny, cause I distinctly recall reading that the class took place and it was not a permanent deal. Just a one time thing and that participation was not required.what's that have to do with this...

Originally Posted by Chewy
It was dumped because of the potential for it to be used as a recruiting tool and it breached school policy. Keeping in mind that it was offered to 10 schools in various grades.:confused:

were they in uniform, did they peddle recruitment info, and did they even identify themselves as recruiters? Again this is irrelevant to the argument. There is nothing in the article that confirms or denies that the marines were dressed in Marine attire or actively or passively were recruiting. That is simply not the issue. Never was it.

[Cousin Eddie]

I'm on no ones side, so let me say this:

Find me a recruiter who "Isn't a recruiter" for one day at a high school, and I will quit posting.

The recruiters I had took every chance they could get to con kids into joining up. Especially the Marine recruiters. They are a recruiter 24/7 and nothing else. Don't kid yourselves, he knew exactly what he wanted to do there. And it wasnt teaching PE.

Gotta agree with this (from personal experience). ^^^^^^

These recruiters are under serious pressure to make their quotas. They have even been demoted for not making their quotas.

[TFS]

Chewy, forget it. You're trying to argue something that might have happened as if it did happen without taking into account all the variables that allow it to happen that were not satisfied.

I'm telling you, identifying them as Marines has nothing to do with anything. All that matters is whether or not they gave out enlistment information, which is not stated that they did.

The school is not placing blame on them, and they know all the details, whereas you know considerably less, but are still trying to act is if there is damning proof the Marines did anything wrong, of which you have none.

That's the bottom line here. I know you're going to post again, either accusing me of demanding you to prove my arguments (which I have yet to do), or accusing me of not making any points (which I have and stated them multiple times), and accuse me of making claims I have not made (all I've done is point out the holes in your assumption), because you seem to have to have the last word on this, so go ahead and have it. It won't change the fact that your assumption and your claims are not in fact what happened and that there is no proof of any wrong-doings. No one's being punished, the school has all but literally said it was a harmless miscommunication.

So have at it, have the last word because it won't change a thing. I'm done here. I've got better things to do than argue whether or not some Marine recruited kids who voluntarily participated in a program with him when neither of us have all the facts with someone who thinks he knows all there is to know about the military from "research" but can't demonstrate fundamental knowledge of square-1 requirements recruiters have to follow to not be brought up under courtmarshal charges under UCMJ.

[Chewy]

That's the bottom line here. I know you're going to post again, either accusing me of demanding you to prove my arguments (which I have yet to do),
I disagree you have yet to support your own argument with anything factual. You have made reference to non-factual evidence.

For someone that claims working knowledge of the military I thin you'd have had the upper hand and yet you have failed to provide anything substantial.

Instead readers are saturated with rhetoric. My position is firmly supported within the confines of the article and may I add many of the other posters expressing their own experiences.


I think you were done when you began spinning your tires a few posts back.

[anti-liberal]

Chewy, why do have to get caught up in arugements over affairs which affect you in NO way whatsoever? Isn't there something Canadian you can debate about?

[droogsteve]

Chewy, why do have to get caught up in arugements over affairs which affect you in NO way whatsoever? Isn't there something Canadian you can debate about?

You're right. From now on, only Iranians can post in threads about Iran, only Israelis can post in threads about Israel, only Koreans can post about North Korea, and only morons can post about President Bush. :rolleyes: