more about the abuse against prisoners in iraq

[Karly]

Now I know yesterday that picture made me chuckle- but thats cuz it was a bit funny at first. However- this is just soo bad for the US. We pride ourselves on being so civilized & now this. I hope this turdburgers get whats coming to them.
Like the trest of the world doesnt hat us enough- we just give them more reasons.


link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118456,00.html)

[SectorNine]

Yeah I really hope those soldiers pay for what they did. This makes us look like assholes. Just imagine if the tables were turned. What if those had been American prisoners? We would never stand for such actions.

[Karly]

what bugs me the most is how we are constantly citing the geneva convention rules of war that need to be adhered to & this makes us look like hypocrites.

[SectorNine]

what bugs me the most is how we are constantly citing the geneva convention rules of war that need to be adhered to & this makes us look like hypocrites.
I couldn't agree more. I didn't see all the pics, but I saw several. There was one girl who was in a lot of them. Something that really bugs me is how excited she looked in each picture. It just bothers me.

[Viceroy]

If that's what happens to Iraqis, god knows what they do to clandestine terrorists.

[Karly]

I couldn't agree more. I didn't see all the pics, but I saw several. There was one girl who was in a lot of them. Something that really bugs me is how excited she looked in each picture. It just bothers me.


yeah they showed the pics this morning on fox news. they showed the prisoners nude in a human pyramid & then they showed a pic of a US soldier chic next to a row of nude iraqi men & she was pointing at them & laughing.
This is unreal. I cant believe they would do something like this.
Also in the article I posted it states that they were charged with doing indecent acts with the prisoners. Just what the fck did these ppl do?

[Fossil]

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

[Riley]

That just made me sick. What in the hell were they thinking?? And they talk about how some of the solidiers didn't read up the Geneva Convention. Helloooooo, any dumbass would have known thats not how you treat the prisoners! God by saying that it just makes them look more stupid.

[Viceroy]

That just made me sick. What in the hell were they thinking?? And they talk about how some of the solidiers didn't read up the Geneva Convention. Helloooooo, any dumbass would have known thats not how you treat the prisoners! God by saying that it just makes them look more stupid.

Exactly. One soldier said the instructions on treatment of the prisoners "were not clear". So he thought he'd stand by while Iraqis were tortured and humiliated? What an asshole.

Nothing excuses their actions. Nothing.

Edit: The US soldiers involved deserve to go to prison for a very long time.

[Riley]

Exactly. One soldier said the instructions on treatment of the prisoners "were not clear". So he thought he'd stand by while Iraqis were tortured and humiliated? What an asshole.

Nothing excuses their actions. Nothing.

holy shit, "were not clear".......*shakes head*, I am speechless, nothing more to add.

[droogsteve]

At least the sadistic fucks were stupid enough to record their crimes. That ought to make it easy to prosecute. Their behavior was inexcusable and the kind of damage this does to the credibility of our entire military is enormous. We're supposed to be the good guys. They should all be given the harshest possible sentence to send the message that this kind of shit won't be tolerated. They've disgraced all of our brave professional soldiers with their obscene behavior and must be held accountable.

[shade]

They need to go to military prison for the rest of their lives.

[BlueMind]

Ugh.

Holy shit, look how happy the people commiting the torture are.

[JustinJJ]

It is a shame that these prisoners are being treated so awful. The soldiers who did this are truly awful. I hope that people don't use this for stereotyping americans and that the few soldiers who did this get punished. :(

[Stanky105]

This is disgusting. Yeah, these "soldiers" better go to prison for a long ass time. We need to show the other countries that these people were not acting how the US military should. This cannot be remotely tolerated. :mad: :mad:

[Karly]

didnt want to start a new thread- but i just wanted to mention- has anyone noticed how all the ppl pictured doing the abusing are white? white ppl be crazy!

commence with the " you racist bitch" remarks.

[Bergs]

what bugs me the most is how we are constantly citing the geneva convention rules of war that need to be adhered to & this makes us look like hypocrites.

We wont be hypocrites as long as all involved are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They should all go to jail for the max sentence so to set an example. Its amazing how fucking stupid these people were to not only do this but to take pictures of it. Jeez.

[fubar]

yea, I hate the gun-ho attitude of some people who want to go over and just kill iraqis. That was a really stupid move on their part, and one of the soldiers was a chick, it seems like something only men would do... she's probably a lesbian.(no offense, I'm just joking) :p

[JerkyMyTurky]

Who knows how long and how many other soldiers were also doing this. I'm sure it is not practiced by the majority, but I'm sure there was a fair share of soldiers doing such acts. It is normal for soldiers during war time to take out aggression out on prisoners (doesn't make it right, but it happens). The only thing that is truly surprising, more than the actual torture and humiliation, is that they took pictures of what they were doing. That is probably the only isolated thing about these incidents and with other probable incidents, is that these soldiers took pictures of it.

What kind of prisoners where they? I doubt iraqi soldiers would allow themselves to be degraded and humiliated like that, allowing themselves to be put into sexual positions as they were. The american soliders were reservist, so I doubt they would let reservists handle iraqi soldiers who were caught in action. I think most of these prisoners were iraqis who were rounded up for questioning and were taken advantage of. I can't imagine iraqi soldiers or foreign fighters allowing themselves to be toyed with like that. They usually shackle up or handcuff real soldiers for fear of them fighting or struggling, these looks like regular people being taken advantage of.

[Instigator]

Stuff like this makes me glad I never supported this idiotic war.

[droogsteve]

Who knows how long and how many other soldiers were also doing this. I'm sure it is not practiced by the majority, but I'm sure there was a fair share of soldiers doing such acts. It is normal for soldiers during war time to take out aggression out on prisoners (doesn't make it right, but it happens). The only thing that is truly surprising, more than the actual torture and humiliation, is that they took pictures of what they were doing. That is probably the only isolated thing about these incidents and with other probable incidents, is that these soldiers took pictures of it.

What kind of prisoners where they? I doubt iraqi soldiers would allow themselves to be degraded and humiliated like that, allowing themselves to be put into sexual positions as they were. The american soliders were reservist, so I doubt they would let reservists handle iraqi soldiers who were caught in action. I think most of these prisoners were iraqis who were rounded up for questioning and were taken advantage of. I can't imagine iraqi soldiers or foreign fighters allowing themselves to be toyed with like that. They usually shackle up or handcuff real soldiers for fear of them fighting or struggling, these looks like regular people being taken advantage of.They were Iraqi soldiers. They interviewed one on the Today show this morning.

[seaweed]

Its so funny seeing the US media concentrate so much on what the US soldiers are doing in Iraq. I mean the soldiers in the US military bases in Japan and Korea have been raping, stealing, vandalizing, torching, etc for the past several years and those stories never made the headline.

[wils0646]

Its so funny seeing the US media concentrate so much on what the US soldiers are doing in Iraq. I mean the soldiers in the US military bases in Japan and Korea have been raping, stealing, vandalizing, torching, etc for the past several years and those stories never made the headline.

Alright, where do you get this info?

[seaweed]

Alright, where do you get this info?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US citizens are unaware of such news because the US media never broadcasts it.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/19/63558.shtml
http://www.iacenter.org/korea_teens-campaign.htm

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb97army.html
(somewhere around the 14-15th paragraph)

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9603/okinawa_rape/

[ramittinbawdeep]

theres a big story over here too concerning "british soldiers"alledgedly pissing on an beating iraqis, but it looks like it was staged by people as the rifle and clothes wore are not consistant with wot the soldiers in iraq have and also they have been able to identify the lorry used from its interior as one that the british army didnt take to iraq with them but the damage has been done and no matter what is said the iraqi people wont believe it so all the work in basra and surrounding areas could fall apart thank to the daily mirror for not checking the facts as usual :mad:

[Bergs]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US citizens are unaware of such news because the US media never broadcasts it.

You are talking about two incidencies there. One of which was a horrible accident with two people charged for negligent homicide and a rape in which they were found guilty. What the hell do you want? Shit happens and it is unfortunate but it will be dealt with.

[seaweed]

You are talking about two incidencies there. One of which was a horrible accident with two people charged for negligent homicide and a rape in which they were found guilty. What the hell do you want? Shit happens and it is unfortunate but it will be dealt with.

Sorry for showing ONLY two of the cases that occured in Asia, although I never said that only two cases occured. There's just so damn many that I wish not to waste my time searching and citing all the crimes commited by US soldiers in Japan and Korea.

Maybe I didn't cite a really good website, but in the incident of two girls getting hit by an US armored vehicle, they have reports that it wasn't a simple accident. Also the Korean officials could not prosecute the drivers of the vehicle due to the political relation they have with US or something, and under the American court, the drivers were not guilty and were released. They were not dealt fairly.

Two incidents? WOW, I can't believe I'm hearing this from an American citizen when we went crazy on saving Jessica Lynch, a single soul. Are you implying that the lives of non-Americans that were taken by American soldiers in a non-war situation has no significance?

Learn to read. I asked for anything in my first post, I simply made a comment, and now you're starting things off.

[Bergs]

What the hell are you blabbering about? Starting things off? Im stating that you making it sound like we are commiting atrocities in Korea is ludicrous especially when the only two examples you can come up with went to court. Why didnt they go to a Korean court? Because its the military of course. If a soldier commits a crime here they are charged by the military all the same regardless of what it was. The military is a self sufficient organization, all it needs is money and it takes care fo everything else.

[seaweed]

Why didnt they go to a Korean court? Because its the military of course. If a soldier commits a crime here they are charged by the military all the same regardless of what it was. The military is a self sufficient organization, all it needs is money and it takes care fo everything else.

as you have stated, thats the case only if it's in the US.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200306/16/eng20030616_118329.shtml

"Under the Status of Forces Agreement governing the conduct of the U.S. military in Japan, the United States need not hand over suspects until they are charged by Japanese prosecutors, except in the case of "heinous crimes" such as rape and murder."

and the fact is that the US court lets off the GIs so damn easily. Like in the case of two Korean girls, the GIs were charged of negligent and homocide but the court finalized that they were not guilty, even when Korean officials have plenty of evidences to prove that it was not a simple accident. Seems like my previous links were outdated, I'll apologize for that. Anyway read this for yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2497947.stm
http://www.kimsoft.com/2002/2-girls.htm
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200211/200211200018.html

http://ndfsk.dyndns.org/kuguk8/ndfsk/com_june30_1.htm
South Korea, however, transfers even the legal treatment of GI criminals to the US military side in case they commit murderous atrocities. That is why, crimes of US troops increase in south Korea.

so crimes that occur atleast in South Korea are handled by the US and are treated unfairly. The problem is that the US media wouldn't bother reporting any minor cases of violence. You can try searching for it but you'll hardly find any American sources that go into detail. Thats why I said I don't want to bother spending my time searching for other incidents that may not have even been reported by the American media.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US citizens are unaware of such news because the US media never broadcasts it.

This is what I said earlier on. Now tell me why this is so difficult to understand. He asked for sources, probably because he was unaware of these facts and he didn't believe me. My point here was that the American media hardly talks about these incidents in Asia; therefore, explaining why American citizens are unaware of these incidents. Therefore, by saying "Its so funny seeing the US media concentrate so much on what the US soldiers are doing in Iraq", I was mocking the media of being biased. Do you understand now?

[DeeDee]

All i can say is that this makes the USA look so much worse than we already look, and that's pretty damn bad. I saw the one pic of them positioning those two guys to look like one was sodomizing the other..we look like a bunch of idiots and we have given other countries yet another excuse to hate us.

And Mami, Yes, I noticed they were white as well which even pisses me off more. I can not tell you how many times i have heard how racist white people are, and bam.. here they are proving that mind set correct. The chick that looks like a young boy is the one that really gets me angry. Everytime I look at her with the thumb up like she is saying," Toturing people is fun" or her shiny happy smile I just want to punch her directly in the face. That is so uncalled for and they all knew better.

[psycoprincess]

what about the Iragi civilians that torched that Jeep with the americans in it...
and dragged their bodies through the street?
you are in a state of war. things like this are bound to happen
those us soldiers are away from their families and probably in shock
i am not saying excuse them ... its sick and degrading but its playground antics
this war is a pushing contest

i am canadian
so what do i know

[DeeDee]

psycoprincess- I understand what you are saying but that is cruel punishment meant to degrade those people and it was completely un-warranted. Having a bunch of MEN pose in homosexual positions has nothing to do with war and it should have never happened. Period.
The United States would like to pride themselves on following the Geneva convention and taking the higher road and I think that this kind of behavior really makes us lose creditiblity.

[psycoprincess]

[QUOTE=DeeDee]psycoprincess- I understand what you are saying but that is cruel punishment meant to degrade those people and it was completely un-warranted.

Completely unwarrented yes... but lighting four innocent men on fire is warrented? and in the spririt of war???
i strongly disagree

i can't pass much more judgement or thought then that because i have never been in the position. nor would i want to be.
the images we see and get from the american media are not the whole story
we are inundated with this imagery and franklyi feel almost numb to the entire thing
it seems surreal
all of it
i choose not to watch

[Artanis]

i agree that the US soldiers shouldn't have done those HUMILIATING things to the POWs that tried to kill US soldiers. but I think the issue is being pushed a bit too far. you didn't hear half of the shit you are hearing now when those contractors were torched and slung from a bridge.

[Sam Da Butcher]

American (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/) abusers.
British (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14199634&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=shame-of-abuse-by-brit-troops-name_page.html) abusers.
I'm not going to get into the politics of war but I am appalled that this has happened.

[Viceroy]

American (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/) abusers.
British (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14199634&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=shame-of-abuse-by-brit-troops-name_page.html) abusers.
I'm not going to get into the politics of war but I am appalled that this has happened.

No one is disputing the American claims. Everyone but The Mirror is disputing the British claims. Just sorting that out.

[Viceroy]

Taken from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3684825.stm

Detainees were threatened with a loaded pistol

Cold water was poured on naked prisoners

Inmates were beaten with a broom handle and chair

Male detainees were threatened with rape

A prisoner was sodomised with a chemical light

Detainees were forced into various sexual positions to be photographed

Naked inmates were arranged in a pile and then jumped on

Male detainees were forced to wear women's underwear

Male detainees were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped

Military dogs were used to frighten and intimidate; in one case a detainee was bitten


Pretty awful......

[Sam Da Butcher]

Everyone but The Mirror is disputing the British claims.
Why do you think that is?

[krazykomrade]

Completely unwarrented yes... but lighting four innocent men on fire is warrented? and in the spririt of war???

Those men were already dead when they were ignited, they died when their car went over a mine or was shot or something. And those were iraqi civilians who burned the bodies of american civilians, only an idiot would claim that could justify american soldiers abusing iraqi soldiers in POW camps.

those us soldiers are away from their families and probably in shock
thats their own damn fault for going to a BS war to serve the personal interests of Bush. Dont want to be away from your family to further haliburton, then dont join the fucking army. thats no excuse. and im sure the iraqis were just as much in shock as the americans, they are the ones who are defending their country after all.

to the POWs that tried to kill US soldiers.
You make it sound as if the US soldiers weren't trying to kill the Iraqi soldiers. Its a war, the point is to kill the enemy soldiers, saying "well those damn iraqis tried to kill our soldiers" is total BS. Those Americans who abused the iraqis dont deserve a court mashall, they deserve a good old fashoned blowtorch and bridgehanging, Iraqi style ;) . And I love the hubub about "I cant believe this is happening!?" This is no doubt the tip of the iceburg, i wouldnt be surprises if this was just one of over a dozen cases of such horrible abuse, only this is the only one that got out, and now the military is doing a coverup. asking the military to investigate this makes just as much sense as the gestapo investigating the jewish deaths at auchwitz, as droog put it.

[Bergs]

Fro once I kinda agree with krazy komrade. There is no excuse for this so stopping making them. They should all go to jail. However there is no way in hell the Iraqis should be able to punish them. Do you think they would get a fair trial? Fuck no. And your comparison of the Army and Gestapo is insulting. The Army is not murders and this hurts our image. It is in our best interest to see that these idiots are punished.

BTW, those British pics dont even look real. There is something just visually wrong with them.

[Sam Da Butcher]

BTW, those British pics dont even look real. There is something just visually wrong with them.
Thats got to be the weakest argument I've ever heard you make.

[Bergs]

Really? Compare them to the American pics. The American pics show multiple instances, with American soldiers in them showing off. The British pics show one guy without any Brits in the pictures. Why would you take such a picture? The Americans obviously took it to show off and be like look what we did. Stupid yes, but thats obviously the case. Whats the point of the British picture, to document someone being tortured? There arent any brits showing off. The man doesnt look like a prisoner. Either he is wearing what he was captured in or something he was issued. Why would he be fighting in a clean white t-shirt with the Iraqi flag across it and why would that be issued? It doesnt make any sense especially when comparing it to the American pictures. That British case is very suspect.

[Bugfatty]

I agree.

The British pictures are fake as hell, 100% staged.

The American pictures are real. If they were faked the Army never would have pressed charges.

[Sam Da Butcher]

Really? Compare them to the American pics. The American pics show multiple instances, with American soldiers in them showing off. The British pics show one guy without any Brits in the pictures. Why would you take such a picture? The Americans obviously took it to show off and be like look what we did. Stupid yes, but thats obviously the case. Whats the point of the British picture, to document someone being tortured? There arent any brits showing off. The man doesnt look like a prisoner. Either he is wearing what he was captured in or something he was issued. Why would he be fighting in a clean white t-shirt with the Iraqi flag across it and why would that be issued? It doesnt make any sense especially when comparing it to the American pictures. That British case is very suspect.That makes a little more sense - You don't have to tell me how easy it is to edit or stage photographs. I'm sure the truth will come out in due time.

[Bergs]

Also, look at the picture of the man supposedly being jabbed in the balls with the rifle butt. The camera went off at the precise time as to catch the rifle at its deepest point? Money says the men were standing there holding the rifle in place for the picture.

[Bugfatty]

Yeah and unless it was somesort of high-performace camera the rifle should have came out blurry.

[droogsteve]

Yeah, I agree that the Brit pictures are fake. The rifle butt in the crotch was obviously posed and is not a motion shot and the soldier's face and unit patch are convieniently not seen. The Iraqi flag T-Shirt was an amateurish attempt to add authenticity. I guess they couldn't find a t-shirt that said: "LOOK AT ME, I'M AN IRAQI POW!" :p

The American pictures however, are real. And while I by no means believe that the US soldiers should be turned over to the Iraqis, the Army cannot be trusted to handle it internally. I know how the military works. While I was in the Navy the there was an explosion during a live fire excercise in the 16" gun turret aboard the USS Iowa, a WW2 era ship which had been recently recomissioned. 47 sailors were killed. This was a blow to the Navy, which had just been given the funds to recomission several more battleships against the wishes of critics who argued that battleships were outdated and not suitable for modern combat.

So what did the Navy do? Did they admit that it was dangerous outdated technology? Nope. Spend millions to update the old systems to make them safer for sailors? Nope. They went for the coverup. And not just any coverup, but the most despicable vile coverup that I've ever seen.

The Navy claimed that it wasn't an accident. They said that one of the sailors who died in the explosion, Clayton Hartwig, was a homosexual who deliberately blew up the turret in a fit of homo rage because another sailor that he was in love with wanted nothing to do with him. They even PLANTED pictures of the other sailor in his bunk to back up their claims. They accused a man who died serving his country of being a hysterical sissy and mass murderer to cover their asses. He was neither and everyone knew it.

I was aboard the USS Carl Vinson at the time, and word got around that they were sacrificing this man. We were horrified, it could have been any one of us. Eventually an independent inquiry of the explosion exonerated Hartwig and the Navy apologized to his family. They tried to sue but a judge ruled that the federal government has sovereign immunity from being sued for defamation.

I've rambled a bit, but my point is that any Army inquiry cannot be trusted because it will look out for the best interest of the army, just like the Navy did. If they found that prisoner abuse was widespread and NOT an isolated incident, do you really think that they would pursue it? Doubtful. They give slaps on the wrist and transfers to keep the whole thing quiet. A neutral independent investigation is warranted.

[DeeDee]

Droog, My dad was in the Navy 23 years and I agree with you.. from some of the vague snipets my father has told me I agree that they will try to cover it up if widespread.
I am pretty sure that their will be a seperate indepedent investigation.. whether biased or not I couldn't say. I know that the senate and house are pretty outraged about this.. I can not help but think they will investigate this.

[Nocturnal]

what about the Iragi civilians that torched that Jeep with the americans in it...
and dragged their bodies through the street?
you are in a state of war. things like this are bound to happen
those us soldiers are away from their families and probably in shock
i am not saying excuse them ... its sick and degrading but its playground antics
this war is a pushing contest

i am canadian
so what do i know


treatment of POW's (or prisoners for that matter) is independent of the war. We are over there (supposedly) because we are trying to show this backwards shitty portion of the planet how a mature modern people and govt. is supposed to act. Frankly no punishment is too harsh for these jerkwads. I would call them traitors, they have probably done more damage to our image than Bush could do in 2 years :p