Is Rumsfeld's head gonna roll?

[Viceroy]

Last week it was only the actions of a few US soldiers which were being called into question. Now Rumsfeld is facing a Armed Services Committee in the Senate tomorrow. Apparently, the Pentagon knew of the abuses back in January and Rumsfeld hadn't even read the report by the start of this month.

Thoughts anyone?

[Stanky105]

I am sure he's going to be taking a lot of shit for a while. Supposedly even Bush plowed into him a few days ago.

[Viceroy]

I am sure he's going to be taking a lot of shit for a while. Supposedly even Bush plowed into him a few days ago.

The idea of Bush successfully 'plowing' into anyone is laughable.

[Bergs]

The idea that you even know enough about Bush to laugh at that is hysterical. Go criticize your own government.

[shade]

There is no reason for rumsfeld to lose his job over this at this point. The thought of it is simply absurd. Maybe if he actively obstructs the investigation of it, it could be a thought, yet highly unlikely.

[Viceroy]

The idea that you even know enough about Bush to laugh at that is hysterical. Go criticize your own government.

I do. Just not here.

In any case, Bush is easier to criticise because he does so much more to piss off the world.

[Viceroy]

There is no reason for rumsfeld to lose his job over this at this point. The thought of it is simply absurd. Maybe if he actively obstructs the investigation of it, it could be a thought, yet highly unlikely.

Someone's got to carry the can for keeping the report quiet.

[shade]

Why? What angers you more? The fact that the acts DID occur or the fact that the acts were not reported?

The acts were discovered, and the military stopped them internally, before the media found out. If you look at this objectively, what they did was best from a practical stand point.

1: Discovered the torture.
2: Stopped the torture.
3: Prevented (delayed) the muslim world from finding out about it and fueling anti-american sentiment.
4: They only fell short by not actually punishing the soldiers severely.

You would have prefered this?
1: Discover the torture.
2: Report it to the press.
3: Have a much larger uprising in Iraq killing more troops (including from your nation) and possibly delaying transfer of sovreignty.
4: Court Marshal a couple people.

Given the choice, in their situation, I would have done the same thing and gone with sequence one instead of two.

As a concerned American and news junky though, I would like to have known about this sooner and seen action taken sooner with more severe punishments.

When judging this, you need to do so from different perspectives.

[Dozzi]

And Viceroy I see why you'd have a problem with this. Coming from one of two countries that ever abide by the Geneva confrence, you should see this is a firestarter. The Geneva confrence was made but never backed with force, and torture has never been addressed until it was America who committed it. Iraq has and still tortures it's P.O.W.'s, and when respond with not even equal force, with lesser force, our Armies and Countries are ridiculed for it.

Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?

[Nocturnal]

Someone's got to carry the can for keeping the report quiet.


I'm sure Bush was pissed but Rumsfeld just kept it quiet, prob not enough for him to get canned.

[Viceroy]

And Viceroy I see why you'd have a problem with this. Coming from one of two countries that ever abide by the Geneva confrence, you should see this is a firestarter. The Geneva confrence was made but never backed with force, and torture has never been addressed until it was America who committed it. Iraq has and still tortures it's P.O.W.'s, and when respond with not even equal force, with lesser force, our Armies and Countries are ridiculed for it.

Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?

No it isn't because American soldiers should consider themselves above terrorists and murderers.

[droogsteve]

And Viceroy I see why you'd have a problem with this. Coming from one of two countries that ever abide by the Geneva confrence, you should see this is a firestarter. The Geneva confrence was made but never backed with force, and torture has never been addressed until it was America who committed it. Iraq has and still tortures it's P.O.W.'s, and when respond with not even equal force, with lesser force, our Armies and Countries are ridiculed for it.How could the Geneva convention be backed by force? Force by who? :confused:


Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?We're supposed to be the good guys. The guardians of democracy. We're supposed to have a higher standard. Do you really want us to sink to the level of savages?

[Fossil]

Why? What angers you more? The fact that the acts DID occur or the fact that the acts were not reported?

Both. But that congress ,and supposedly Bush himself, had to hear about the abuse going on over in Iraq (4+ months after the fact, mind you) from CNN is unforgiveable.

It would seem to me that somebody was trying to keep this a big hush hush secret, at least until after November....

[Sketcher]

It would seem to me that somebody was trying to keep this a big hush hush secret, at least until after November....

How would this hurt Bush's relection? Bush had nothing to do with what these soldiers were doing. And Rumsfeld kept it from Bush. How would this hurt Bush?

[Fossil]

Because it is another reminder that Iraq is a complete and utter disaster.

Bush, being the commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for what goes on over there, eh?

And it's pretty sad if you really believe Bush didn't know about the torture. Just how out of the loop is Georgie boy?

[droogsteve]

And it's pretty sad if you really believe Bush didn't know about the torture. Just how out of the loop is Georgie boy?I'd say pretty goddamn far. I get the feeling that GW finds out about "his" decisions and policies on FoxNews like everyone else.

[Karly]

I'd say pretty goddamn far. I get the feeling that GW finds out about "his" decisions and policies on FoxNews like everyone else.

ohmyword! that made me bust out laffin!!!

[DeeDee]

The only intellegent thing for Rumsfield to do is resign. How in the world can anyone think that there is no reason for him to be gone?

[Bergs]

For once I actually agreed with something that Chucky, NY's other Senator said, we cant pass judgement and demand a resignation until Rumsfeld is questioned by Congress tommorrow. Tommorrow we will find out WTF is going on and believe me, mami knows, I am fucking furious over what happened so nobody better say im going to defend Rumsfeld no matter what.

[DeeDee]

Berg,I have heard that the republicans are acutally not defending him, they are waiting to see what he will say tommorow. I am at least happy at the fact that they are not defending him just because of politics, that they want to hear why and are not just automatically saying what he did was ok. Personally, i can't fathom what he could possibly say to justify this. I guess I will just have to wait until tommorow and see what the man has to say. Regardless, I think we can all agree that he made a gross error in judgement at the very least.

[Viceroy]

These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defence I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility........

.....I failed to recognise how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress...

.....There are many more photographs and indeed some videos. Congress and the American people and the rest of the world need to know this.

Wow, at least he's being honest. For the first time ever I'm pleased with the man. Surely he's gonna lose his job now.

[Fossil]

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on 5-7-04:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3694995.stm


In recent days there has been a good deal of discussion about who bears responsibility for the terrible activities that took place at Abu Ghraib.

These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defence I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility.

It's my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure that those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again.

I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in US custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. And that was wrong.

So to those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of the US armed forces, I offer my deepest apology.

It was inconsistent with the values of our nation. It was inconsistent of the teachings of the military to the men and women of the armed forces. And it was certainly fundamentally un-American...

I failed to recognise how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress...

I'm seeking a way to provide appropriate compensation to those detainees who suffered such grievous and brutal abuse and cruelty...

Beyond abuse of prisoners, there are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman...

There are many more photographs and indeed some videos. Congress and the American people and the rest of the world need to know this.

[Bergs]

Was that a speech he gave? I thought he was going to be questioned? Anybody have a transcript from questioning?

Another article. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20040507/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_video_dc_1

This is absolutely appaling. Ever single soldier that had something to do with this should be rounded up and given the maximum penalty for the crime. We need to show the world why we are the good guy by taking responsibility for this and punishing them. And as far as Rumsfeld is concerned, I am impressed but I dont know yet if he should resign, not enough substance to that speech to let me know what roll he actually had in any possible coverup.

[Fossil]

That was Rumsfeld opening statement at the hearing earlier today.

[Fossil]

There are many more photographs and indeed some videos. Congress and the American people and the rest of the world need to know this.

He also said that the worst was yet to come. Apparently some of the other pictures/videos involve acts of rape/murder/and forced cannibalism.

[JustinJJ]

Rumsfeld is right up there with Bush. He is giving the US a bad name... I sure do hope he resigns from office... doesn't look like he will though. can't wait till the dubbya administration is outta here!

[Karly]

I heard soemthing today about 10 prisoners who died while under our militarys care & 2 have already been ruled as homicides. I have a feeling this is just gonna get uglier.

[Nocturnal]

I throughly enjoyed McCain's questions to Rumsfeld. He really gave it to him, John McCain, one of the good Republicans (politicians)

[Viceroy]

What annoyed me was some dumbass Senator saying he was really pleased as what Rumsfeld said, because the 9/11 terrorists and the insurgents in Iraq never apologised. I mean, what a idiot. I suppose bin Laden's gonna phone up the White House of September 12th and say "hey there george, listen sorry about the towers and all, but when can you invite me and my 9 wives to dinner"?

The people who try to justify our soldiers acts that say "they torture our prisoners" are wankers. Don't they see that we're supposed to be the good guys? As if the middle east didn't hate the western world enough, we just gave them their best excuse ever. What's more, it's the truth.

[GERAINT]

Hi all,

You might like this piece I made using Donny's Known Knowns speech:

http://homepage.mac.com/geraint1/GH-dot-mac/rumsfeld.html

Geraint

[pidgeball6]

Yeah, ummm to brief the president on every skirmish, troop movement, checkpoint violation, black marketer, and so forth in JUST Iraq would take quite a bit of time out of his day. He could do that, then he would be criticized for not adressing issues at home. Dems. are trying to make this into a big shit storm because its an election year. Did anyone call for Clinton's head when the Marine raped the girl in Okinawa, or when the Navy sub collided with the Japanese ship? Besides, Bush has stated often that he is not going to try to control operations in Iraq, that the military is very capable of carrying out a military campaign. It's kinda what they do. Our failure in Vietnam taught us that the judicial and executive branch shouldn't try to organize troops in a conflict.