REAL survival horror

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

Well, this happens to me every once in awhile. I get an idea for a game that I think is great, but I never learned to code. I can deal with the fact that I'll probably never see my ideas come to fruitation, but I still have to get it out there, talk about it. It helps me think about possible issues and fixes, and also just to debate the concept.

Well, we've all played a survival horror game. And when it comes down to it, it's more of an adventure game. I want real survival horror. I want to feel like I really need to think out every move or I might end up as zombie feed. I want to be able to have another player by my side to back me up.

Here's the scenario. You're in a city, and it's overrun by zombies (or whatever, zombies are just a great classic). You have your own particular skills that can come in handy, which you can choose when you create your character. As you play, you can learn new abilities to help you survive. But you ARE human. You have needs. You need to eat, drink, sleep. You can get sick. You aren't some specially trained super soldier. You're a civilian in a city that's trying his best to survive.

Of course, what's the cost of failure? What happens if you die in an online SURVIVAL game. If the game is all about surviving, than death should carry a huge penalty. The simplest answer, permadeath. You screw up, your character is gone, and you have to create a new one. If you're done playing, you'll want to find a nice safe place to log off, because downtime is when your character takes a break from the apocolyptic horror. But he's still there, in game.

Now because of various issues with a system like this, maybe permadeath is too harsh. What if you're sitting there, playing your game, and a real life issue comes up? Maybe your sister fell and hurt herself, and you have to rush her to the hospital? I'll admit that's a valid problem. But in a game like this, survival should be your ONLY objective. Maybe being resurrected should carry it's own problems. Say a special rare item is necessary to resurrect a player, and that item is the only thing that can cure an infection from a nasty zombie bite. Someone happens to have one of these items, but with their medical skills, there's only a chance that the item will succeed in working. If they keep it for themself though, it's almost guaranteed, or 100% guaranteed that it will cure their infection. It'd be a hefty price to revive a fallen player, and they may have to use five of these item before they even succeed. That's a reasonable compromise.

Because of the sheer numbers and size necessary in a game like this, it would be appropriate to make the characters sprites, maybe with a top down first person hybrid view (meaning you see the game top down, but you can only see what your character would be able to see, you'd be able to remember rooms, but you won't know what's in them.) Utilizing a system like this, buildings and terrain could be 3d, but the game could still have massive numbers of enemies on screen.

As you play, your character will become stronger of course.. But as I said before, he's still human. A bullet in my head will be just as likely to kill me as a bullet to the head of a battle hardened army veteran. Hit points will remain fairly consistent. Someone who's been around may be able to shake off more pain than your average person, so you may gain a little bit more life. But the maximum shouldn't be ten times what you start with. Maybe double.

I'll be back to post more about this. I'm currently at work. Let me know your opinions though.

[hipocritical]

They already have a game a lot like that:

Check It (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros_3)

[SwyfT]

They already have a game a lot like that:

Check It (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros_3)

Nice attempt at wit I guess.

Good concept, I thought about it and they really need to make at least 1 console game that is hardcore. I'd change a few aspects but the HUGE penalty for dieing/eat+drink is a good concept. I'm guessing a game like this has never been released because it wouldn't cater to anyone but the challenge searching hardcore gamer.

I'd play it if it wasn't based on "remember this zombie pops out of this place, I learned this from the last time I died after 10 hours" and more diverse/random. Or else I'd feel like I was playing a complex game of Simon sez.

[Life On Mars]

When you are biten/eaten by a zombie you should be able to play as one.

And this should all be online

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

None of the zombie popping spawn crap. I mean, I guess zombies WOULD have to spawn somewhere, since they'd end up dying, but it wouldn't really matter. If you were to go out and try to slaughter zombies by the truckload, you'd die pretty quickly. And even if you're able to hole up pretty well, you'd run out of resources sooner or later.

Online play would be a must. Groups of survivors would simply stand a much better chance. And it could even work extremely well on a smaller scale. You don't need to have it be MMO. Each player in the group could lend their own special skills.

Various balances would be necessary. Players aren't going to be finding bazookas and tanks everywhere. The best vehicle you'd end up finding would probably be a tractor trailer. The concept would be based around having a normal person thrown into chaos, and doing his best to learn to survive in it. Ammo would be fairly scarce. Makeshift melee weapons will be enough to fend off a zombie or two, but you'd be quickly overrun if you're not careful. Guns would be effective, but you'd have to worry about the number of bullets you have. I guess the occasional grenade would be reasonable, but something like a L.A.W. would be a very rare find. Heck, it could be moddable, you could have a server with troops trying to clear out an area with heavy weaponry. But I think having to run your ass off most of the time can be loads of fun too. Get through that door, close it and find something to barricade it in hopes of slowing down the monsters outside. Hope there's a back door to the building you just entered.

For the sake of interest, cities could be created randomly. Each server would have it's own distinct playground. A server reset could also recreate the city. I guess cities could also be constructed if one so desired. Things would make sense with placement as well. You want food, go to a grocery store. Weapons, gun shop, police station, maybe even an army base. Medical supplies, hospitals and pharmacies. Just trying to find a place to hole up, prisons have all kinds of security, but little resources. Rooftops provide a good all around view, plus a fairly safe place, although you'll be spotted easily. The longer you're in a spot where you've been noticed, the more zombies will gather there.

The game is supposed to be difficult. The player will have all sorts of practical abilities. But the enemies will have vast numbers. It may even be appropriate for the enemies to vary. The every day shambling zombie will be the most common foe. Some will be quicker, more cunning. Some may have ranged attacks. Some may be bigger and stronger. Variety is good, but possibly not necessary. If you think about it, with dynamic gameplay, masses of normal zombies could be quite enough to keep the game fun.

In a perfect world, the game would be an FPS. The limits imposed by an FPS style game would be perfect for true survival horror. But because of other limits imposed by the very nature of 3D engines, namely the number limitations, an FPS may not work. I guess you could just use 2d sprites for it, but we all know players would hate that. It would be MUCH more forgivable in a top down 3d/2d hybrid. Of course, with the TDS (top down shooter) perspective, various code will have to be in place to make the game more playable. What happens when you enter a building and how does the view change? How will window views be implemented? How much does the game lean towards action, and how much strategy, how much RPG? Maybe you move with keys, access your inventory via the keyboard as well, aim and fire with the mouse? Could you jump? I'm sure you can see why I'd like the FPS style most, but I hate the limits that would be imposed. I guess if you heavily modded DOOM, it could work out pretty nicely.

Anyways, thanks for some of the feedback. I just love the concept here, maybe some other people will love it enough to do something along those lines. Urban Dead meets Resident Evil + FPS/TDS. The Sims plus zombies minus the ridiculous micro management. Take survival horror to a new level, and make the Survival mean something. We don't survive by shooting guns and eating green herbs than finding a blue gem to put into a statue of a lion. We need resources for our health, and to protect from injury.. food water and shelter. THAT is survival.

Edit, afterthought:

Ah, yes. A new (low level?) player won't be useless. Extra skills and abilities should be designed as support. Anyone can push a couch in front of a door, but someone who understands a bit of mechanics may be able to reenforce the door with a few supplies instead. I could poke you with a needle and push the plunger, but someone with medical experience would know whether the shot should be given intramuscularly, intraveiniously, or subcutaneously (what? I know right?). A pill will just look like a pill to you, but someone with pharmaceutical knowledge will know the difference between a painkiller, and an antipsychotic. I'm sure you can see what I mean. New players could be allowed a couple skills, or maybe they could choose from a few generic professions. Maybe a freeform player gets 3 skill points to spend how they see fit, but a profession will have 4 predetermined skill points already set.

[AileStriker]

They already have a game a lot like that:

Check It (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros_3)

Yeah that was a pretty lame attempt at being funny. Why don't you go to the gamefaqs.com message board, your humor will be more appreciated there.

Edit: Your idea sounds cool, but a bit expensive. Hopefully in the future we'll have survival horror games like that.

[duke_nukem]

It sounds like it would be amazing. It would be awesome if your idea got picked up by a game company, and you got a cut of the goods.

[xeoset]

I reckon your on step to a pretty awesome MMO lol.

I reckon it'd be cool if you create 1 Character (Human) and went online to a made up City and played it like an RPG, you LVL via Cooking and Combat Skills (Kinda like Oblivion except every Skill adds to a LVL) but one person is infected in some lab or some shit and becomes a Zombie, then gets free. Then this one Zombie is a CPU Character that tries to feed on Humans. Now, every person logged on is a Human, if this Zombie gets you, you become a Zombie and have to try and infect other people (well eat) thus creating an ever lasting army of ZOMBIES! Then if someone else's character is still human, they can group up and try and survive together, honing certain skills that benefit the Group or go completely Solo and LVL everything to own Zombies. Now when a Zombie walks so far, they should get Speed increases, for every Human they eat Strength and the damage they do should go up.

But with one character your bound to end up a zombie? Right?
Well that's the point, you keep playing as a Human to survive for as long as possible and be the best or whatever, then if you get bored or just want to b a Zombie to try it out. Die. Then you can either try and have fun LVLing a Zombie and be the best or just...Die. Then you make a brand new Human character and start all over.

Plus there would be Leaderboards for say Zombies killed/People eaten.

Does anyone have a number to Capcom. I might let them have this idea!

[LuckyCharms]

U.S. Headquarters:

Capcom U.S.A., Inc.
Capcom Entertainment, Inc.
475 Oakmead Parkway
Sunnyvale, CA 94085
(408) 774-0500 main number






Capcom Entertainment, Mobile and Interactive Games Division:
10960 Wilshire Blvd.
15th Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90024
(310) 943-5470 main number

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

Like I said before, I don't expect anything to come of this. I just like getting my ideas out and debating them.

I've already considered that route. That would be a totally different game, and awesome on it's own. It WOULD be first person, it wouldn't have the rpg aspects.

With the Survival game, there wouldn't be players playing as zombies. It's all about survival. The downside to dying would be that you'd have to recreate your character completely from scratch. The rewards for surviving are keeping everything you've found, plus leveling up your skills.

I've recently played a mod for UT2k4 called Killing floor. The mod does things pretty well, but it's too combat oriented. Waves of zombies come, you kill them all off, restock on ammo, rinse, wash, repeat. Don't get me wrong, it's fantastic. But it's not quite what I'm looking for.

I don't want breathing time. I want the threat to always be there. Either outside pounding on your door, or around the next street corner, or gnawing on your skull. I want to think out every move I make. Okay, barricade that door, now find the back door.. should I leave the building since they know I'm here? Should I block off the backdoor, but risk getting trapped? Should I take the time to see what's in the building? Maybe if I stay quiet and hide, they'll forget about me... Is there enough food in here to last me through the next few hours? What can I use to defend myself in case they break in?

It'd be really nice to have a complex crafting sort of system. You could find every day chemicals and use them to create a bomb, a little fertilizer, a little bleach.. maybe a glass bottle with the same in it to create a makeshift grenade. Make yourself a simple sling and use it to fire whatever you can find at enemies. Maybe even be able to actually build complex weapons with high skills. With enough time you could lace a small area with booby traps to slow down the horde. Mix tactics with action.

Again, the trick to the game would be the dynamics in what the player could do. How could they defend themselves? Could they fool a group of zombies to go into a building that they have set up a pyro bomb in? With a basic game, development could continue to add new possibilities.

[hipocritical]

Yeah that was a pretty lame attempt at being funny. Why don't you go to the gamefaqs.com message board, your humor will be more appreciated there.


Take it a little more seriously?

[AileStriker]

U.S. Headquarters:

Capcom U.S.A., Inc.
Capcom Entertainment, Inc.
475 Oakmead Parkway
Sunnyvale, CA 94085
(408) 774-0500 main number






Capcom Entertainment, Mobile and Interactive Games Division:
10960 Wilshire Blvd.
15th Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90024
(310) 943-5470 main number

Ewww you like def tech? You know that they're Soka Gakai right? Thats a religious cult in Japan Headed by Ikeda. If you want to hear some good Japanese hiphop look up Gagle, Soul Scream, or Rhymster.

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

I've got an idea. How about utilizing many of the gameplay aspects of a rogue-like? With a simple tileset and the limited topdown view common in rogue-like games, it could work extremely well. Just make it real time instead of turn based, and add in a network code.

[Joey Orion]

Maybe just 1 life might scare away people. Maybe a preset number like 5. Gamers would be pissed if they spent weeks on their character to just have it lost in an accident. I know it's a survival game but a limited amount of lives makes it just as scary knowing you can't respawn 400 times but enough that you won't be disuaded in playing it. When you die, something shitty can happen like maybe you lose some of your armor or start with half of your life or something.

[silverspade14]

Maybe you could set up like dedicated server that you and other people play on permanently. Zombies spawn and die off if they cannot get human flesh in a certain amount of time. When a human was caught by one zombie the other zombies could feed on him to preserve their life. The longer the humans survive the less zombies there are until there are none left and thats when the game restarts. If a person died they would either have to join a new server or wait until their server restarted once the objectives, whatever they may be, are reached.

[SatanTheSith]

It would be good if there were like a couple tutorial levels or training that you can go to and if it were pc. only because i dont like online gaming with ps2 :) it would be badass to make a zombie killing clan

[Joey Orion]

Maybe you could set up like dedicated server that you and other people play on permanently. Zombies spawn and die off if they cannot get human flesh in a certain amount of time. When a human was caught by one zombie the other zombies could feed on him to preserve their life. The longer the humans survive the less zombies there are until there are none left and thats when the game restarts. If a person died they would either have to join a new server or wait until their server restarted once the objectives, whatever they may be, are reached.

I really like this idea. It keeps it fresh

[Bubba-E]

it would be appropriate to make the characters sprites

You have thinking quanity, but not thinking quality.

In this new generation of gaming systems, you can have hundreds of high polygon characters on the screen at once. If you want thousands, just make them fade in detail as are off in the distance. There's lots of tricks and tweeks to make things like that work.

But I agree, a real hardcore survival horror would be neat. Stuck in a city swarming with zombies, running around looking for supplies, setting up traps/barricades, waiting for help while hordes of brain eating slimy monsters come to consume your neurons... Fun fun.

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

I'm not talking about a high budget game, keep that in mind. I'm talking about something put together by a small group of guys. The reason why? Because commercial games have become too watered down for the more hardcore gamers.

Now that I've thought about it more though, hundreds of zombies on screen at once wouldn't really be necessary. It WOULD be more appropriate if all the players decide to shack up in a single place, all the zombies would conglomerate there. But a simple little piece of AI coding telling the zombies to keep a bit of distance from one another in "passive" mode could give the illusion of a large crowd. Personally though, I like 2d-3d mixed games. 3d environments, 2d characters. Done right, it could give the game a strong comic book appearance. Of course, the execution of it would decide in the end. See how well the low poly models work.

Check out Survival Crisis Z at totallyscrewed.net

I was introduced to this game just yesterday, and I have to say, it does quite a few things right. The game is obviously low budget and light weight, plus there's quite a few things that could be greatly improved upon, but it had the sort of feel I was going for. The game is more action than survival, but it's still pretty fun. The graphics are highly forgivable considering. But the immersion is lacking completely.

As I said before, permadeath has it's issues with the system that I'm talking about. But there HAS to be a serious cost in a survival game. Another option I've come up with is a sort of reincarnation system. You die, you can respawn, but you lose everything you were carrying (any stockpiles are where you leave them though, always, unless someone else steals them), and you lose a significant amount of gained experience. For the sake of argument, let's assume the system works with skill trees, maybe like in diablo. Death will select your highest skill, and remove one level. Maybe after you die the first time, you get a freebie, second time, one skill, third, two.. etc.. up to five or so. Also, if you're at level 4 with firearms, and you're 10% away from level five, and you die, you respawn at level 3 firearms, being 100% away from level four. It's almost like a two level loss in that case. Reasoning? It hurts, and it's simple and direct. Sound decent? If you die too much, the most practical route may be to just abandon that particular character and restart.

Damn... this is too good. We need a team. =P

[Allergic]

Have you played Resident Evil Outbreak/Outbreak File#2 online? It's obviously not exactly what you are talking about, but is pretty good. You play Racoon City citizens caught up in the outbreak and you have to work together in teams of up to 4 to survive each scenario. Each player has different skills that complement one another, and as your group is made up of real people it is always different. I don't think many people play it these days however, and it got shitty reviews.

[dude22]

sounds fun. make it for ps2!

[NYG 5]

how bout u play in first person.....and you see urself gettin eatin n shit bitten and ripped off....if u get away, u can conceal the wound...and suddenly turn into a zombie within the middle of agroup of humans...and u can spectate whoever u infected....awesome

[Fireal87]

Before playing the game, you should make everybody take a test to find out the skills the character would have in the game so...going into the game, the character would be more like the player .

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

Okay, so out of curiousity, I've posted on the planetunreal forums about the unreal engine's limitations, and I even outlined the basic concept to give a better idea of what I'm looking for. I don't know if I'll even get an answer, but at least with UT2k4, I have a basic understanding of the map editor. If I get some answers and it looks promising, than I might be able to get some people together if I manage to get a map to work from.

Don't get your hopes up. I've been interested in starting a project many times before, and never was able to get anywhere with it, but if some other people show some interest, maybe it will go somewhere.