Worried Enough To Leave The Country

[KiruKlan]

You know, I've been struggling with something recently.

The idea of a draft in America has been going around, and there's been a bit of a scare around this area a few different times. I've always thought that the American people would never let the draft happen, but...

Anyway, right now America is sending another large aircraft carrier to the waters just beyond the border of Iran, and the idea of war with the country is becoming much more realistic.

I may be a coward, and I may be a traitor to my country, but I will not be participating in a war with Iran, if one is to rise. And trust me, when I have said that, I have been accused of being both.

I admit, I'm scared. Scared enough to leave the country. I'm currently packing my things and will be leaving the country within the week, following Christmas. I cannot risk the possibility of a war actually happening.

---

How likely do you believe war with Iran is?
How likely do you believe the draft is?
How many believe that the first should happen?
How many believe that the second should happen?

[TFS]

Iran is a toss-up. We're committing more troops to Iraq, and that will leave even less resources free for a war with Iran that we're not ready for even with our full force focused solely on it. But if shit turns south as far as them getting a nuke goes, I think it would be inevitable no matter how short we are militaristically.

A draft I don't think is very likely for one simple reason: it has to be approved by the Senate, and all those newly elected democrats love their new jobs, and all the returning republicans don't want to lose theirs. Neither wants to gaurantee a loss in their next election.

Don't let media talk of a draft get under your skin. They were flinging that scare-tactic bullshit around during the 04 election. Unless the President and Congress acknowledge it being considered, there's no reason to panic about it, and it's notexactly something they'd be able to keep out of the public eye if they were seriously discussing it.

It's nothing different than the media buzz around Y2K, SARS, and any other random major life-threatening disaster they make all these what-if reports on. Possible, but about as unlikely as a laiden swallow flying a coconut into England from way down south.

If you're really concerned, go register yourself as a consciencious objector, and stay in the US and contribute in a way that doesn't involve military service or combat. There are plenty of jobs outside of being deployed into possible combat zones when you're a consciencious objector, and I can tell you, as a soldier who would rather not be placing my life in the hands of a drafted soldier who never wanted to be in the army, I would actually think higher of you if you were to register as a consciencious objector. I see no shame in it. If you know combat simply is not for you, I'd rather you got put to work sorting mail somewhere or something else useful instead of put in a situation you really do not want to be in that would compromise the lives of you and others around you if you were unable to perform.

[18C]

Iran is a toss-up. We're committing more troops to Iraq, and that will leave even less resources free for a war with Iran that we're not ready for even with our full force focused solely on it. But if shit turns south as far as them getting a nuke goes, I think it would be inevitable no matter how short we are militaristically.

A draft I don't think is very likely for one simple reason: it has to be approved by the Senate, and all those newly elected democrats love their new jobs, and all the returning republicans don't want to lose theirs. Neither wants to gaurantee a loss in their next election.

Don't let media talk of a draft get under your skin. They were flinging that scare-tactic bullshit around during the 04 election. Unless the President and Congress acknowledge it being considered, there's no reason to panic about it, and it's notexactly something they'd be able to keep out of the public eye if they were seriously discussing it.

It's nothing different than the media buzz around Y2K, SARS, and any other random major life-threatening disaster they make all these what-if reports on. Possible, but about as unlikely as a laiden swallow flying a coconut into England from way down south.

If you're really concerned, go register yourself as a consciencious objector, and stay in the US and contribute in a way that doesn't involve military service or combat. There are plenty of jobs outside of being deployed into possible combat zones when you're a consciencious objector, and I can tell you, as a soldier who would rather not be placing my life in the hands of a drafted soldier who never wanted to be in the army, I would actually think higher of you if you were to register as a consciencious objector. I see no shame in it. If you know combat simply is not for you, I'd rather you got put to work sorting mail somewhere or something else useful instead of put in a situation you really do not want to be in that would compromise the lives of you and others around you if you were unable to perform.


Werd.

If there was a draft I would go, simply because a person's nation does provide a lot for them despite a lot of stupid stuff they do as well.

[KiruKlan]

If you're really concerned, go register yourself as a consciencious objector, and stay in the US and contribute in a way that doesn't involve military service or combat. There are plenty of jobs outside of being deployed into possible combat zones when you're a consciencious objector, and I can tell you, as a soldier who would rather not be placing my life in the hands of a drafted soldier who never wanted to be in the army, I would actually think higher of you if you were to register as a consciencious objector. I see no shame in it. If you know combat simply is not for you, I'd rather you got put to work sorting mail somewhere or something else useful instead of put in a situation you really do not want to be in that would compromise the lives of you and others around you if you were unable to perform.

I don't really know how to be a consciencious objector, or what exactly it is. I do know however that I'm currently an unemployed registered paramedic, and the military has been calling every day for the last 2 years.

It might just be talk, but you will never convince me that it's on the same level as Y2K or some shit like that. We have a large portion of our Navy on the border of Iran at this very moment. While we both agree that a large land invasion is unlikely, war is war, and we don't have enough troops to support the current mess we're in.

The pre-draft has already began, and I have no doubt that it would start again. We don't have the troops to support a war, and our politicians are more than ready to expand this war to Iran.

Do you really believe a president needs Congress to do anything? The president can enter war easily without congress. They can do anything as long as they don't 'declare war'. I have no doubt that the president would force us into the war by initiating it with the use of loopholes. And then we'll need the troops to do it. Thus, a draft.

[18C]

Do you really believe a president needs Congress to do anything? The president can enter war easily without congress. They can do anything as long as they don't 'declare war'. I have no doubt that the president would force us into the war by initiating it with the use of loopholes. And then we'll need the troops to do it. Thus, a draft.


That would pretty much be career suicide for anyone associated with Bush. His daddy would never let that happen!

[sparrky]

I'm with you buddy, first serious talk of a draft and i'm packing my shit and moving to canada.

[baumy300]

You pussies should just stay and if the draft ever does happen just say you are gay...

[YouEnjoyMyself]

If you're really concerned, go register yourself as a consciencious objector, and stay in the US and contribute in a way that doesn't involve military service or combat. There are plenty of jobs outside of being deployed into possible combat zones when you're a consciencious objector, and I can tell you, as a soldier who would rather not be placing my life in the hands of a drafted soldier who never wanted to be in the army, I would actually think higher of you if you were to register as a consciencious objector. I see no shame in it. If you know combat simply is not for you, I'd rather you got put to work sorting mail somewhere or something else useful instead of put in a situation you really do not want to be in that would compromise the lives of you and others around you if you were unable to perform.


How does one go about registering as an objector? I didn't know you had to register for it, got any more info? I could google it, but I'm sure you've got some answers.

As far as the original questions go...


How likely do you believe war with Iran is?
Not likely at the moment
How likely do you believe the draft is?
Not likely
How many believe that the first should happen?
I don't.
How many believe that the second should happen?
I don't

[TFS]

I don't really know how to be a consciencious objector, or what exactly it is. I do know however that I'm currently an unemployed registered paramedic, and the military has been calling every day for the last 2 years.

Go talk to a recruitor and find out. They are legally bound to tell you how to go about registering as one.

It might just be talk, but you will never convince me that it's on the same level as Y2K or some shit like that. We have a large portion of our Navy on the border of Iran at this very moment. While we both agree that a large land invasion is unlikely, war is war, and we don't have enough troops to support the current mess we're in.

Who all's talking about it? The major network media commentators who talk about almost nothing but "what if" situations and asshole bloggers with agendas.

It's not valid talk until politicians acknowledge that it's on the table specifically.

The pre-draft has already began, and I have no doubt that it would start again. We don't have the troops to support a war, and our politicians are more than ready to expand this war to Iran.

Pre-draft?

Last I checked over half our legislative branch for the rest of Bush's term is opposed to any more wars for the time being based just on party lines. Then you have all the Republicans who will staunchly oppose any more of his shenanigans, and then on top of all that you have the senators and congressmen that actually look at the facts, numbers, and figures and see that even if we'd like to, we're not in any shape to initiate an offensive on Iran and will oppose one taking place.

Bush has no room to make any more wars.

Do you really believe a president needs Congress to do anything? The president can enter war easily without congress. They can do anything as long as they don't 'declare war'. I have no doubt that the president would force us into the war by initiating it with the use of loopholes. And then we'll need the troops to do it. Thus, a draft.

Yes, I do. He needs an incredible majority vote which he will never get for such an idea, and even if he went in with it undeclared, he has not got the power to move enough soldiers into that kind of operation without it being a declared war, and if he were to move the number he is able to move for an undeclared war, it would be suicide, and he could easily be brought up on charges for something that obviously suicidal. Iran is not Iraq. An invasion will not be a matter of weeks with them. It will be more akin to trench warfare.

He lacks the backing of Congress, the power to wage any believable offensive without declaring war, and we lack the backing of the nations we would need for an offesnsive like that right now.

There aren't any loopholes left he can use. The whole world is against him on anything not having to do with stabilizing and leaving Iraq.

How does one go about registering as an objector? I didn't know you had to register for it, got any more info? I could google it, but I'm sure you've got some answers.

If you're already registered for the draft, you can go talk to any recruiter and they legally have to give you that information. You'll be fighting a long, uphill battle to get your status changed, and one set up for you to lose. You'll have to jump through a bunch of hoops, but if it's what you really want, it'll be worth it. It's easier to change your status if you're not actually in the military, but still hard as hell, just a heads up.

If you haven't already registered for the draft, which if you're 18, is illegal anyways, go to the post office, get a form for registering for the draft, and follow the instructions on it, and there will be a place to check for registering as a consciencious objector or a field to fill out for becoming one. Just read the instructions on it and it will explain everything. That's the easiest way to become one is if you do it when you first register for the draft. You have to be on the list for the draft no matter what, but as a consciencious objector, they cannot send you into any sort of combat zone. You can still be called to serve, from what I understand, but your service will be filling a position vacated by a federal employee who was drafted into serving combat purposes, like carrying mail, filing shit, something else on the homefront. Boring as hell, but still important in keeping things functioning.

[YouEnjoyMyself]

Damn, the nearest recruiter is over 60 miles away.

edit: http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

A conscientious objector is one who is opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles.

HOW TO APPLY
In general, once a man gets a notice that he has been found qualified for military service, he has the opportunity to make a claim for classification as a conscientious objector (CO). A registrant making a claim for Conscientious Objection is required to appear before his local board to explain his beliefs.

He may provide written documentation or include personal appearances by people he knows who can attest to his claims. His written statement might explain:

how he arrived at his beliefs; and

the influence his beliefs have had on how he lives his life.

The local board will decide whether to grant or deny a CO classification based on the evidence a registrant has presented.

A man may appeal a Local Board's decision to a Selective Service District Appeal Board. If the Appeal Board also denies his claim, but the vote is not unanimous, he may further appeal the decision to the National Appeal Board. See also Classifications.

WHO QUALIFIES?
Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

SERVICE AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR
Two types of service are available to conscientious objectors, and the type assigned is determined by the individual's specific beliefs. The person who is opposed to any form of military service will be assigned to Alternative Service - described below. The person whose beliefs allow him to serve in the military but in a noncombatant capacity will serve in the Armed Forces but will not be assigned training or duties that include using weapons.

ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
Conscientious Objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of Alternative Service are jobs in:

conservation

caring for the very young or very old

education

health care

Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.


I could do that. My life up to this point has led me to not want to fight. I have many reasons that are not disqualified.

[TFS]

Damn, the nearest recruiter is over 60 miles away.

edit: http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm



I could do that. My life up to this point has led me to not want to fight. I have many reasons that are not disqualified.

Have you already registered for the draft?

It's hard as hell to convince them that you somehow changed your mind (especially if a lot of combat has occured and is expected to continue) than it is to have on record from the very beginning that you felt this way.

Either way, good luck. Like I said before: I'd rather have you serving in a way that you think you could succeed in rather than in a situation where your acknowledged unwillingness to do something could cost your and other soldiers' lives. It's better for everyone involved.

[bergshadow]

The last time we had a draft, the determination of CO status was made by the local draft board - citizens from the community, usually with military experience. It could be, and often was, denied.

You had to provide evidence of a moral commitment to non-violence strong enough to forbid any role in the military - even medic, hospital orderly, etc - in any conflict whatsoever (not just an illegal or immoral one).

From a practical point of view, this meant recommendation from a religious authority of a recognized and respected church. Usually, it also meant a longstanding relationship with that authority and/or church.

Applicants were often harassed, threatened, monitored, etc, by local and federal agencies, especially the FBI.

[Synch]

You had to provide evidence of a moral commitment to non-violence strong enough to forbid any role in the military - even medic, hospital orderly, etc - in any conflict whatsoever (not just an illegal or immoral one).

What type of evidence?

[baumy300]

The last time we had a draft, the determination of CO status was made by the local draft board - citizens from the community, usually with military experience. It could be, and often was, denied.

You had to provide evidence of a moral commitment to non-violence strong enough to forbid any role in the military - even medic, hospital orderly, etc - in any conflict whatsoever (not just an illegal or immoral one).

From a practical point of view, this meant recommendation from a religious authority of a recognized and respected church. Usually, it also meant a longstanding relationship with that authority and/or church.

Applicants were often harassed, threatened, monitored, etc, by local and federal agencies, especially the FBI.
Our countries slogan should be "Land of the free! Until we need you."

[YouEnjoyMyself]

Have you already registered for the draft?

It's hard as hell to convince them that you somehow changed your mind (especially if a lot of combat has occured and is expected to continue) than it is to have on record from the very beginning that you felt this way.

Either way, good luck. Like I said before: I'd rather have you serving in a way that you think you could succeed in rather than in a situation where your acknowledged unwillingness to do something could cost your and other soldiers' lives. It's better for everyone involved.

I already registered. I did when I turned 18.

The last time we had a draft, the determination of CO status was made by the local draft board - citizens from the community, usually with military experience. It could be, and often was, denied.

You had to provide evidence of a moral commitment to non-violence strong enough to forbid any role in the military - even medic, hospital orderly, etc - in any conflict whatsoever (not just an illegal or immoral one).

From a practical point of view, this meant recommendation from a religious authority of a recognized and respected church. Usually, it also meant a longstanding relationship with that authority and/or church.

Applicants were often harassed, threatened, monitored, etc, by local and federal agencies, especially the FBI.


Damn. I'd be screwed then.

If I was actually drafted I'd flee the country. There is no way I'm fighting.

[bergshadow]

What type of evidence? A lot depended on the local draft board. In my town, religious involvement (youth group leader at a church, humble and self-sacrificing works done under Christian auspices such as volunteering at nursing homes or food shelves for a few years, etc) was key. Avoidance of sports and competitive events also counted. A local minister or priest vouching for your consistent behavior and interest over at least a couple of years was all but necessary. A reputation for backing away from fights and not responding to provocation with violence helped (in my town, someone on the draft board was almost sure to know someone whose kid went to high school with you, your teachers and coaches, etc).

But this is not much of a worry. Of course the manpower needs of the military look like they are going to require a draft pretty soon, but failure to meet those needs can be spun and concealed in various ways. And the concept of the citizen soldier - an important aspect of the national philosophy in WWII, when all those newsreels celebrated the fighting spirit and abilities of the non-professional American soldiers - is gone as far as I can tell. We want pros now - of course, our focus is not national defense any more, and for invasion of foreign countries professionals are better.

So I agree with those who think a draft unlikely any time soon.

[Cousin Eddie]

^^^^ hey... what if the government doesnt know where you live? For the past 2 years or so... I have been living beyong the reach of city/local/fed government. The way I pay my bills, taxes, & use mail drops.... they couldnt track me down very easily. Hell, I dont even live in the county that I say I do. They have no idea where I ACTUALLY live.... so how would they be able to serve a draft notice?


How does the government serve draft notices to the homeless? I am sure that there are plenty of homeless that registered before they became bums. They have REALLY been living "off the grid" for years & years.

[Cur67]

We want pros now - of course, our focus is not national defense any more, and for invasion of foreign countries professionals are better.

So I agree with those who think a draft unlikely any time soon.

Well we do have a policy that leans more towards offense than defense,
and the Pentagon prefers small efficient forces rather than a bulk group
of involuntary conscripts. I don't see the Pentagon or the people allowing
a draft. It is outdated, unAmerican, and impractical.

Perhaps they need to raise the reenlistment age, offer some bonus money,
and of course, reinstatement of former rank . . .
The manpower is out there but a draft is not the way to get the kind needed.

[SlOtH]

My brother and I already have plans to live in Canada if such a thing happens. We will be staying there permanently. Canada is better than the US in more ways then one. Call me a coward, whatever, I'm not dying for someone else. Die on your own damn time.


BMTH, if this ever goes down, PM me and we will meet up in Canada. We will smoke lovely. :D

[bergshadow]

The way I pay my bills, taxes, & use mail drops.... they couldnt track me down very easily. You ever use a phone? Drive a car?

If they want you, which isn't likely, they'll find you.

One of the problems with a war like this is the effect it has on young people who would gladly serve their country, who feel they owe their community and nation a contribution to its common defense - and will always have a disappointment, a nagging sense of lack and loss, from not serving - but who cannot sign over their moral character and betray their fundamental ethical principles in the manner demanded by this kind of horrorshow.

It weakens the moral fiber of a generation, especially affecting the best and the brightest.

[Cousin Eddie]

You ever use a phone? Drive a car?

If they want you, which isn't likely, they'll find you.

.

Yeah, but they are registered to bogus addresses.

And I'm not worried about any draft. I'm getting old & have a bad back & notin the best of health.

This is just for argument's sake.

[bergshadow]

Yeah, but they are registered to bogus addresses Doesn't matter. You use them, you are located. If anyone cares enough.

Back in the day, the powers that be would take care to make examples out of a few people - so even if it wasn't worth it to them to track down every single Canadian-bound draft dodger, say, they would pick a couple and show up at the Christmas family dinner three years later or the airport at the plane transfer or something and arrest with much publicity. To discourage the crime.

[camjoe87]

The amount of people actually volunteering for the military is much, much, much higher than it was when they were installing a draft ..

I doubt they would be in desperate need of a draft anytime in the near future. I also heard the selective service office is under budget and in need of a lot of money to actually begin a draft. The director of the selective service even said it himself, "there won't be a draft unless something EXTREMELY big happens."

Would I fight? Depends .. If a nuclear bomb were to ever go off in an american city I would definately be very motivated to fight.

[droogsteve]

I may be a coward, and I may be a traitor to my country, but I will not be participating in a war with Iran, if one is to rise. And trust me, when I have said that, I have been accused of being both.

I admit, I'm scared. Scared enough to leave the country. I'm currently packing my things and will be leaving the country within the week, following Christmas. I cannot risk the possibility of a war actually happening.


I won't accuse you of being a coward or a traitor, but you most definitely have panic issues. Relax. In the unlikely event that a draft comes to pass, they aren't going to show up without warning and drag you away. If it happens, you can then weigh your options and decide on a solution. Until then, I'm sure there are more pressing everyday needs to worry about. You can't live your life like Chicken Little worrying that the sky is falling. Christ, it must be exhausting going through life like that. Packing up and leaving the country because there's a slim chance that someday there might be a draft is hysteria that borders on serious mental illness.


I do know however that I'm currently an unemployed registered paramedic, and the military has been calling every day for the last 2 years.

A Paramedic? Holy crap. I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope for the sake of any potential patients that you're a little more cool-headed on the job than you've shown yourself to be here.

[drexel]

while living in stuttgart i talked a lot with an american mennonite living over there working with a group that helps soldiers file for CO status.

they have changed a number of the rules over the last 6 years or so to make filing for CO status a lot more difficult than it used to be.

according to the mennonite fellow, they were also giving legal representation and advice to a few soldiers who were actually thrown in jail (brig?) for wanting to change to CO status... i have no details or information beyond that.

desert storm back in '92 started the day i signed my selective service papers. my dad was drafted into viet nam and hated it, so he told me that if i didnt want to go, he would get me out of the country.

[weister42]

"Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you...bitch..." - ICP

donno but I was listening to that song when I saw this post

[drexel]

"Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you...bitch..." - ICP

donno but I was listening to that song when I saw this post

a day where icp lyrics dictate to someone how they feel about a subject is a sad one, indeed.

[ftbllplr]

I can't get drafted. Hooray for me.

[Mr. Heskey]

How likely do you believe war with Iran is?
How likely do you believe the draft is?
How many believe that the first should happen?
How many believe that the second should happen?

1. Within the near future, not likely
2. I'd give it a snowball's chance in hell
3. No, unless further tensions arise.
4. No

[Master. kirby]

I personally think its a very pussy thing to be THIS worried about a draft.

The only way the draft will ever come back is if we where to go to war with a country like china, and such a war if you are to pussy out I hope you burn in hell when you die, because you should be standing next to your American brothers, but its still a small chance that a draft would go in effect, with modern millitary equipment we will NEVER and I mean NEVER see battles like in ww2, there will never be a need for massive infantry campains, unless something crazy happens such as a worldwide emp blast and somehow we are thrown back 50-100 years in technology, but thats not going to happen.

The only other reason a draft might occur is if there is an invasion on American land, which won't happen.
I personally beieve there will be a nuclier holocaust before a draft is initiated.

[eieio]

You know, I've been struggling with something recently.

The idea of a draft in America has been going around, and there's been a bit of a scare around this area a few different times. I've always thought that the American people would never let the draft happen, but...

Anyway, right now America is sending another large aircraft carrier to the waters just beyond the border of Iran, and the idea of war with the country is becoming much more realistic.

I may be a coward, and I may be a traitor to my country, but I will not be participating in a war with Iran, if one is to rise. And trust me, when I have said that, I have been accused of being both.

I admit, I'm scared. Scared enough to leave the country. I'm currently packing my things and will be leaving the country within the week, following Christmas. I cannot risk the possibility of a war actually happening.

---

How likely do you believe war with Iran is?
How likely do you believe the draft is?
How many believe that the first should happen?
How many believe that the second should happen?

Your problem will not end with leaving the country. Your life will ALWAYS be defined by this act. It will ALWAYS be a source of arrested development for you. No matter what else you do or don't do this will ALWAYS be a source of pain for you.

Good bye. Good luck. Don't let the door hit you.

How likely do you believe war with Iran is? Within 12 months.

How likely do you believe the draft is? 70% likely.

How many believe that the first should happen? We CAN NOT ALLOW Iran to develop nuclear weapons. When Iran gets close to that we would HAVE to take action.

If we DON'T attack them first then we will just rely on their goodness and mercy to prevent their wiping Israel off the map and attacking US interests.

How many believe that the second should happen? I think we will have to have a way to guarantee sufficient manpower during war.

Does anyone know Iran's current military manpower?

It's more than ours.

The amount of people actually volunteering for the military is much, much, much higher than it was when they were installing a draft ..

That seems hard to believe. Our current needs are less now than they were during the height of VietNam.

I doubt they would be in desperate need of a draft anytime in the near future. I also heard the selective service office is under budget and in need of a lot of money to actually begin a draft. The director of the selective service even said it himself, "there won't be a draft unless something EXTREMELY big happens."

Would I fight? Depends .. If a nuclear bomb were to ever go off in an american city I would definately be very motivated to fight.

What would you be willing to do or to give or to sacrifice to PREVENT that kind of calamity?

[firepiss]

A war with a Iran? Hell no.

I personally don't care about other nations anymore. I may be more of a selfish american these days but I think America has done enough help.

Hopefully the europeans nations stand up and unite against Iran. Not us.

As for iraq, withdrawing now should be done. The US deathtoll continues to increase. Bush has let us all down with this war. It's not worth it anymore. Send all the troops home and get them to protect our border with mexico.

Because I'm more worried about our border than a nation thousands of miles away.

[eieio]

A war with a Iran? Hell no.

I personally don't care about other nations anymore. I may be more of a selfish american these days but I think America has done enough help.

Hopefully the europeans nations stand up and unite against Iran. Not us.

As for iraq, withdrawing now should be done. The US deathtoll continues to increase. Bush has let us all down with this war. It's not worth it anymore. Send all the troops home and get them to protect our border with mexico.

Because I'm more worried about our border than a nation thousands of miles away."

That makes as much sense as someone in New Orleans who was working at the levy trying to help fill sandbags say, "I don't care about the other neighborhoods now. I may seem like a selfish resident of the Bourbon Street area but we have been filling sandbags long enough! I think the other people from the other Parishes should fill sandbags and not just us.

I think all the Bourbon Street residents should go home now. We are getting fungal infections and it's time to go. It's not worth it anymore. Send ALL the residents home from filling sandbags. It's time for them to go home and protect the neighborhoods.

I'm more worried about our neighborhood than the Parishes miles away!


And please don't try to show how my metaphor isn't exactly the same or use it to make your point about GWB's job performance.

The point here and the fact is that if the levies hadn't failed, if the millions of gallons of water had been stopped in SOME WAY -- by the levies or by use of pumps and sandbagging -- there would have been no flooding and very few deaths. But because NOTHING was able to stop the flood waters Katrina BECAME the disaster we all know and which thousands are STILL trying to recover from.

If Iraq is allowed to fail the results will be likened to the levies breaking during the Katrina catastrophe and the results will be greater and the disaster will have a much larger impact, cost many more lives, result in greater damage to the USA, affect more people and could help trigger martial law in the US.

We MUST NOT withdraw from Iraq and we must not allow Iran to have nukes.

[GlutSow]

I don't know I used to hate the idea of a draft but now i've come to realize that it could happen. I wouldn't skip out on my country.

[Sketcher]

We cannot win a war with Iran with the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan going on. And we cannot win a war with Iran with a bunch of drafted soldiers who do not want to fight.

The Navy near Iran is not evidence of a war. We're keeping a watch on them, yes, but for good reason. We need to watch them right now. We do not need to go to war with them, at least not any time soon. Bush would need congressional approval not only for the conflict - whether it be declared war or not, but he would also need it for the draft too. And honestly, I don't see a Democrat controlled congress allowing the draft - especially one that used the draft as a scare tactic to get elected, which obviously worked on the thread starter.

To the thread started: Seriously, calm down. Unpack your things, start thinking logically, and live your life. You aren't going to get drafted.

[Chewy]

Your problem will not end with leaving the country. Your life will ALWAYS be defined by this act. It will ALWAYS be a source of arrested development for you. No matter what else you do or don't do this will ALWAYS be a source of pain for you.I'm sorry but this made me laugh... for some reason I used the '50's Dad Voice' when I read this...there are many Draft Dodgers alive and well in Canada many live without regret and grateful they didn’t die in a jungle in a War for bogus reasons. Hell we even built a statue saluting them and the hold reunions.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060624/draft_dodgers_060624/20060624?hub=Canada




But I agree with Droogsteve, no worries getting yourself all worked up on this one, until it's clear that a draft is going to manifest. Since Bush's War in Iraq began there have been a number of folks beginning to take a root in assisting those who wish to AWOL to Canada, the Quakers (http://www.afsc.org/) for example have a very strong network throughout the US and Canada, other groups have already begun placing links into what some refer to as the “New Underground Railroad”... I'm part of a of a group based in San Francisco that assist active soldiers in AWOLing to Canada. Canada gas not been as exicted about supporting AWOLing troops becuase there is no draft it is widly suspected that once a draft takes place Canada's position will change.... other groups are willing to assist in other means as well. (http://girights.objector.org/)

[Papero]

I wouldn't dodge a draft, I also would most likely not be chosen, I'm in prime shape but I'm also half deaf, color blind and flat footed. Also still in high school and I intend on going to further education as soon as I leave high school. You normally aren't drafted if you're in school, unless the need for more men is dire.

I dislike drafts because I feel like I wouldn't be trained properly due to time. Less training = higher chance of death.

I honestly feel like my life would be a complete waste, I worked my way up to 18, made friends, worked my ass off in school, only to be drafted, half assed trained and shot in the head or blown to peices. What kind of life is that?

I still wouldn't dodge it, I live in the U.S I might as well be there for her regardless if I agree with it.

A lot of people have to agree with this draft in order for it to happen, too many disagree. It's just not easy to draft, I really wouldn't worry about it, but if there is a draft and you ditch I hope you never come back.

[Nocturnal]

I'm not sure why everyone is so convinced that a draft is impossible. We have had an active draft for the vast majority of our history, only in the last few decades have we not had one.

If something major happens (war with Iran) we will be forced to have a draft. Even if we maintain the status quo I think there is a chance it might happen. Our military is stretched pretty thin by all the tours in Iraq, and now we want to add another 100k to it. Considering the recent need to lower recruitment standards, I don't see this 100k coming on board very easily. (not to mention replacement of current troops who are discharged)

[KiruKlan]

I won't accuse you of being a coward or a traitor, but you most definitely have panic issues. Relax. In the unlikely event that a draft comes to pass, they aren't going to show up without warning and drag you away. If it happens, you can then weigh your options and decide on a solution. Until then, I'm sure there are more pressing everyday needs to worry about. You can't live your life like Chicken Little worrying that the sky is falling. Christ, it must be exhausting going through life like that. Packing up and leaving the country because there's a slim chance that someday there might be a draft is hysteria that borders on serious mental illness.




A Paramedic? Holy crap. I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope for the sake of any potential patients that you're a little more cool-headed on the job than you've shown yourself to be here.

I admit it's a bit of an act. Drama tends to get the most honest answers. Just trying to make it all sound like a really pressing issue so that it can pass 3 pages and I can have a number of decent responses. I'm just going on vacation as I had planned for a long time now, although I will be in no hurry to come back. I'm not pre-fleeing or anything of that sort. Just a vacation.

However, to say I'm not worried about the future possibility of war with Iran would be a lie. It is certainly something that worries me every day, seeing as how politics have been lately. And I do know that we're sending the military to the Iranian area. It seems quite possible.

I think a better solution is to just stay out of there and let Israel bomb the Hell out of them like they're going to do within 2 years anyway.

I guess it depends largely on who our next president is. Get out and vote. Could make a huge difference in how we deal with future conflicts. I don't think Bush has much more of a chance to cause too much more trouble, but the next president surely will.

[Poser Park]

In case of a draft, my uncle & I plan on heading towards Mexico. He has some "associates" down there that would be more than happy to shelter us.

[eieio]

I admit it's a bit of an act. Drama tends to get the most honest answers. Just trying to make it all sound like a really pressing issue so that it can pass 3 pages and I can have a number of decent responses. I'm just going on vacation as I had planned for a long time now, although I will be in no hurry to come back. I'm not pre-fleeing or anything of that sort. Just a vacation.

However, to say I'm not worried about the future possibility of war with Iran would be a lie. It is certainly something that worries me every day, seeing as how politics have been lately. And I do know that we're sending the military to the Iranian area. It seems quite possible.

I think a better solution is to just stay out of there and let Israel bomb the Hell out of them like they're going to do within 2 years anyway.

I guess it depends largely on who our next president is. Get out and vote. Could make a huge difference in how we deal with future conflicts. I don't think Bush has much more of a chance to cause too much more trouble, but the next president surely will.

Islam has a mutual assistance code written into the Koran that virtually compels any Muslim to defend the religion when it is attacked. That's partly what was on display AROUND THE WORLD during the cartoon riots.

That's what we saw when Saddam was paying the suicide bomber's families between $10 - $25K, he was trying to convince the world he was a devout Muslim so that when America threatened him he could call on the Muslim world to come to his aid.

Ahmadinejad is truly devout. Not like Saddam. Even though Saddam AND Ahmadinejad both wanted to destroy Israel, when Saddam was attacked by the Coalition few responded.

But you notice that in Gulf War I and in the 2003 invasion Israel was forced to keep a low profile to keep from starting a regional (or world) war.

Generally speaking the Arabs and the Muslims really don't like Israel or the Zionists or Jews. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. http://www.pmw.org.il/specrep-37.html

So, if Israel attacked Iran, even in an act of self defense, Iran would immediately call for the other Muslim nations to come to Iran's assistance.


? Afghanistan
? Albania
? Algeria
? Azerbaijan
? Bahrain
? Bangladesh
? Burkina Faso *
? Brunei
? Chad *
? Comoros
? Côte d'Ivoire *
? Djibouti
? Eritrea *
? Ethiopia *
? Egypt
? Gambia
? Guinea
? Indonesia
? Iran
? Iraq
? Jordan
? Kuwait
? Kazakhstan *
? Kyrgyzstan
? Lebanon
? Libya
? Maldives
? Malaysia
? Mali
? Mauritania
? Morocco
? Niger
? Nigeria *
? Oman
? Pakistan
? Palestine
? Qatar
? Saudi Arabia
? Senegal
? Sierra Leone
? Somalia
? Sudan
? Syria
? Tajikistan
? Turkey
? Tunisia
? Turkmenistan
? Uzbekistan
? United Arab Emirates
? Yemen

This is a list of countries which have a majority of Muslim people using data from the CIA World Factbook. Please note that sources differ on the state of Ethiopia. Arguably Ethiopia has about 50% Muslim citizens. At 45% Muslim, Guinea-Bissau nearly makes the list.

These nations total 11,883,889 square miles (20.6% of the world's land area), 1.8 billion people (29% of the world's population), and US$ 4.3 trillion of GDP on a purchasing power parity basis (8.7% of the world's GDP). Total world trade with these nations adds to over US$ 800 billion. Military spending totals over US$ 60 billion. Nations that are around half Muslim have an asterisk (*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries


What would the US do if Israel were massively attacked by any or all of these states? We would lend support to Israel.

And then Ahmadinejad's vow to wipe the little Satan off the map would be a realistic goal and the goal of eliminating the GREAT SATAN, THE USA, would be a real possibility.

(And it must be pointed out that the logistics of such a mission are beyond Israel's capability due to the number of nuke sites, due to their being hardened and underground and due to their distance from Israel. So, unless you want to just sacrifice Israel right now you had better understand that we are better off leading such an attack on Iran because we could POSSIBLY prevent a Holy War from starting. Israel could not. We could POSSIBLY neutralize all the nuke sites at once. Israel could not. Amd we would get pulled into it ANYWAY so we might as well use our might to it's greatest effect.)

There's a terrible deception going on in this country by the mainstream media which is not telling you the things I just did.

NOT that everything I said here is guaranteed 100% correct. But that it is 100% POSSIBLE!

And this is the first you've even HEARD of it.

So when you vote without knowing what the real POSSIBILITIES are you are exercising your right to vote without having all the information needed to make a good decision.

Just as GWB didn't have all the info he needed to make the best decision about invading Iraq.

His safest decision was to save Israel and protect America's oil flow.

You THINK your safest decision would be to pull out of Iraq but that would only GUARANTEE a quicker and larger assault on the free world and make more likely the need to raise our troop strength to possibly deter Islamist aggression.

[Nocturnal]

Your paranoia is astounding. To suggest even the slightest chance that the nations in your list would attack us in the event of a conflict with Iran is insane. Even then there are only a handful on that list that could actually field an army to send against us. Most of them also rely on us for protection against other agressive powers.

? Afghanistan
? Albania
? Algeria
? Azerbaijan
? Bahrain
? Bangladesh
? Burkina Faso *
? Brunei
? Chad *
? Comoros
? Côte d'Ivoire *
? Djibouti
? Eritrea *
? Ethiopia *
? Egypt
? Gambia
? Guinea
? Indonesia
? Iran
? Iraq
? Jordan
? Kuwait
? Kazakhstan *
? Kyrgyzstan
? Lebanon
? Libya
? Maldives
? Malaysia
? Mali
? Mauritania
? Morocco
? Niger
? Nigeria *
? Oman
? Pakistan
? Palestine
? Qatar
? Saudi Arabia
? Senegal
? Sierra Leone
? Somalia
? Sudan
? Syria
? Tajikistan
? Turkey
? Tunisia
? Turkmenistan
? Uzbekistan
? United Arab Emirates
? Yemen

[Danimal87]

I admit it's a bit of an act. Drama tends to get the most honest answers. Just trying to make it all sound like a really pressing issue so that it can pass 3 pages and I can have a number of decent responses. I'm just going on vacation as I had planned for a long time now, although I will be in no hurry to come back. I'm not pre-fleeing or anything of that sort. Just a vacation.
Bending the truth to get quick answers, plus you don't want to fulfill your side of the social contract. Don't come back.

[eieio]

Your paranoia is astounding. To suggest even the slightest chance that the nations in your list would attack us in the event of a conflict with Iran is insane. Even then there are only a handful on that list that could actually field an army to send against us. Most of them also rely on us for protection against other agressive powers.

19 young radical Muslim believers caused the world to shift on 9/11/01.

One in 10 Indonesia Muslims back violent jihad-poll
Sunday October 15, 02:04 PM

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims support jihad and justify bomb attacks on Indonesia's tourist island of Bali as defending the faith, a survey released on Sunday showed.

Indonesia is the world's fourth most populous country, with 220 million people, 85 percent of whom follow Islam, giving the Asian archipelago the largest Muslim population of any nation in the world.

So, that's 19 million Muslims for violent jihad in "moderate" Indonesia alone.

Let's look at this clearly:

19 jihadists brought about the War on Terror.

In Indonesia ALONE there are 19 MILLION who support violent jihad.


Now who is looking at things clearly and who is not?

[Chewy]

Bending the truth to get quick answers, plus you don't want to fulfill your side of the social contract. Don't come back.When the government fulfils their half then I see that others should fulfill theirs. The purpose of the military was a 'common defense' not random offences. ;)

[Danimal87]

When the government fulfils their half then I see that others should fulfill theirs. The purpose of the military was a 'common defense' not random offences. ;)
Thats so clever, I can see why you put the cute ;) face. You must be taking a lot of things for granted if you think the government doesn't give the American people a lot of benefits.

[YouEnjoyMyself]

Thats so clever, I can see why you put the cute ;) face. You must be taking a lot of things for granted if you think the government doesn't give the American people a lot of benefits.

We owe our gov't NOTHING, and they owe us EVERYTHING.

[bergshadow]

So, that's 19 million Muslims for violent jihad in "moderate" Indonesia alone. And yet there has been no serious violent Islamic jihad against America in Indonesia or from Indonesia. Nor has there been any violent Islamic jihad against America in most of the other countries you list as majority Muslim. There was no violent Islamic jihad in or from Iraq - against anyone - until the fall of '03, after the Muslim majority had lost control of the borders and AQ could move in.

Iran poses no military threat to the US or Israel, whether it has a couple of nukes or not. The mullahs of Iran are not suicide bombers.

Your panic and paranoia appear to be without real cause.
plus you don't want to fulfill your side of the social contract. The social contract is not with the government.

You do not fulfill your side of the social contract with me - you persist in weaseling around and flailing out, apparently in imitation of Hollywood movies and under the influence of cheap scam and propaganda, while our real enemies undermine our society and enrich themselves at our table. Betrayal of your fellow citizens is not excused by a willingness to attack shadows and scarecrows.

[Chewy]

Thats so clever, I can see why you put the cute ;) face. You must be taking a lot of things for granted if you think the government doesn't give the American people a lot of benefits.


ahhh those are not my words pal... they are in the preamble of the US Constitution
The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.the focus was to 'insure domestic tranquility' not invade nations like Iraq with pulling excuses out of our ass. The cute face was under the assumption you had an understanding about the US Constitution…. but I guess just teh folks up here in Canada seem to. ;)

[bergshadow]

There are some alternatives to the draft, besides reducing the military to a reasonable size or returning to the "common defense" mission rather than the imperial sway mission: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/12/26/military_considers_recruiting_foreigners/

[TFS]

And yet there has been no serious violent Islamic jihad against America in Indonesia or from Indonesia. Nor has there been any violent Islamic jihad against America in most of the other countries you list as majority Muslim. There was no violent Islamic jihad in or from Iraq - against anyone - until the fall of '03, after the Muslim majority had lost control of the borders and AQ could move in.

Iran poses no military threat to the US or Israel, whether it has a couple of nukes or not. The mullahs of Iran are not suicide bombers.

Your panic and paranoia appear to be without real cause.
The social contract is not with the government.

You do not fulfill your side of the social contract with me - you persist in weaseling around and flailing out, apparently in imitation of Hollywood movies and under the influence of cheap scam and propaganda, while our real enemies undermine our society and enrich themselves at our table. Betrayal of your fellow citizens is not excused by a willingness to attack shadows and scarecrows.

Whoa....lay off the Rage Against the Machine albums, fella...

[eieio]

And yet there has been no serious violent Islamic jihad against America in Indonesia or from Indonesia. Nor has there been any violent Islamic jihad against America in most of the other countries you list as majority Muslim. There was no violent Islamic jihad in or from Iraq - against anyone - until the fall of '03, after the Muslim majority had lost control of the borders and AQ could move in.

Iran poses no military threat to the US or Israel, whether it has a couple of nukes or not. The mullahs of Iran are not suicide bombers.

Your panic and paranoia appear to be without real cause.
The social contract is not with the government.

You do not fulfill your side of the social contract with me - you persist in weaseling around and flailing out, apparently in imitation of Hollywood movies and under the influence of cheap scam and propaganda, while our real enemies undermine our society and enrich themselves at our table. Betrayal of your fellow citizens is not excused by a willingness to attack shadows and scarecrows.

Not all Islamists are knee jerk reactionaries. They can be quite deliberate and wait for the right time.

How long were the 9/11 hijackers here? Months and months.

What's the difference between a Sleeper Cell and a Terrorist Cell?

The Sleeper Cell is lying dormant and awaiting the order to commence terrorist attacks.

There are an estimated 2,500 - 5,000 Sleeper terrorists in the USA right now.

Sleep well.

[Chewy]

Not all Islamists are knee jerk reactionaries. They can be quite deliberate and wait for the right time.*cues suspenseful music* and hiding under every branch and behind every blade of grass... waiting :ohnoes:

[Poser Park]

Sleep well.


Will do. ;)

[Nocturnal]

There are an estimated 2,500 - 5,000 Sleeper terrorists in the USA right now.

Sleep well.

Estimated by whom? Some right wing blogger? Those numbers are total bullshit.

[eieio]

*cues suspenseful music* and hiding under every branch and behind every blade of grass... waiting :ohnoes:

Estimated by whom? Some right wing blogger? Those numbers are total bullshit.

Pardon. I think I should make a fine distinction.

"How many hard-core militants are online? Some estimates are as many as 100,000. With 2,500 - 5,000 in the U.S."

The SHOWTIME "sleeper cell" series.

ISLAMIC DICTIONARY
Learn the definition and history behind some of the Islamic phrases used during the show. Study Now!

http://www.sho.com/site/sleepercell/home.do

You can also go there to watch an entire episode from the second season.

This is a great series.

The level of your debate would improve by watching it, I think.

[Poser Park]

Pardon. I think I should make a fine distinction.



You can also go there to watch an entire episode from the second season.

This is a great series.

The level of your debate would improve by watching it, I think.


Your reference & source of information...is a television show? Are you serious? Nocturnal asked where you got the whole "2,500-5,000 sleeper terrorists" estimate, and the best you can do is post a link to a show? Wow...that is a new low for you.

[eieio]

Your reference & source of information...is a television show? Are you serious? Nocturnal asked where you got the whole "2,500-5,000 sleeper terrorists" comment, and you reply with a show? Wow...that's a new low.

Uh oh, I just got a bulletin from Comedy Central. They have rescinded your Daily Show & Colbert Report rights and privileges.

:ohnoes:

ISLAMIC DICTIONARY
Learn the definition and history behind some of the Islamic phrases used during the show. Study Now!

http://www.sho.com/site/sleepercell/home.do

You can also go there to watch an entire episode from the second season.

This is a great series.

The level of your debate would improve by watching it, I think.

[Poser Park]

Uh oh, I just got a bulletin from Comedy Central. They have rescinded your Daily Show & Colbert Report rights and privileges.

:ohnoes:

In other words, you have nothing better to say or prove. You have no source for the '2,500-5,000 sleeper terrorists' estimate. You pulled it out of your ass, just like you've done with many other baseless comments in the past.

[eieio]

In other words, you have nothing better to say or prove. You have no source for the '2,500-5,000 sleeper terrorists' estimate. You pulled it out of your ass, just like you've done with many other baseless comments in the past.

You wish, hope and pray that someone will believe you.

I made a distinction you seem to have missed.

Here it is again for you.


Pardon. I think I should make a fine distinction.

"How many hard-core militants are online? Some estimates are as many as 100,000. With 2,500 - 5,000 in the U.S."

The SHOWTIME "sleeper cell" series.

ISLAMIC DICTIONARY
Learn the definition and history behind some of the Islamic phrases used during the show. Study Now!

http://www.sho.com/site/sleepercell/home.do

You can also go there to watch an entire episode from the second season.

This is a great series.

The level of your debate would improve by watching it, I think.

And yet there has been no serious violent Islamic jihad against America in Indonesia or from Indonesia. Nor has there been any violent Islamic jihad against America in most of the other countries you list as majority Muslim. There was no violent Islamic jihad in or from Iraq - against anyone - until the fall of '03, after the Muslim majority had lost control of the borders and AQ could move in.

When will you stop insulting the intelligence of the people here by using that crappy argument? Only grade schoolers fall for it. Using that logic you could make a BS argument that I'm not going to call you a giraffe. Why? Because I have never called you a giraffe before.

Well, I am now going to defy your "logic."

bergshadow, you are a giraffe.

Things are done EVERY DAY BY ALL OF US that we have never done before.

By your 'logic' those things should never happen. They should be impossible. ALL of our lives should be like GROUNDHOG DAY...a repeat of what has already happened.

9/11 attacks occurred that NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

By your flawed 'logic' those attacks were impossible!

ENOUGH with that crap!

Iran poses no military threat to the US or Israel, whether it has a couple of nukes or not. The mullahs of Iran are not suicide bombers.

We know that Ahmadinejad is a believer in the 12th Imam and that means he DOES have a suicide inclination under the right circumstances. And that he serves at the pleasure of the mullahs. And that they believe in employing martyrs in war. They did so in the IRAN/IRAQ WAR and they have a martyr force ready for use in any upcoming military conflict.

Iran suicide bombers ‘ready to hit Britain’
Marie Colvin, Michael Smith and Sarah Baxter

IRAN has formed battalions of suicide bombers to strike at British and American targets if the nation’s nuclear sites are attacked. According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action.
The main force, named the Special Unit of Martyr Seekers in the Revolutionary Guards, was first seen last month when members marched in a military parade, dressed in olive-green uniforms with explosive packs around their waists and detonators held high.

Dr Hassan Abbasi, head of the Centre for Doctrinal Strategic Studies in the Revolutionary Guards, said in a speech that 29 western targets had been identified: “We are ready to attack American and British sensitive points if they attack Iran’s nuclear facilities.” He added that some of them were “quite close” to the Iranian border in Iraq.

In a tape recording heard by The Sunday Times, Abbasi warned the would-be martyrs to “pay close attention to wily England” and vowed that “Britain’s demise is on our agenda”.

At a recruiting station in Tehran recently, volunteers for the force had to show their birth certificates, give proof of their address and tick a box stating whether they would prefer to attack American targets in Iraq or Israeli targets.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned last Friday that Israel was heading towards “annihilation”. He was speaking at a Tehran conference on Palestinian rights aimed at promoting Iran as a new Middle Eastern superpower.

According to western intelligence documents leaked to The Sunday Times, the Revolutionary Guards are in charge of a secret nuclear weapons programme designed to evade the scrutiny of the International Atomic Energy Agency. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2136638.html

Your panic and paranoia appear to be without real cause.

Oh? :rolleyes:

[bergshadow]

"How many hard-core militants are online? Some estimates are as many as 100,000. With 2,500 - 5,000 in the U.S."

The SHOWTIME "sleeper cell" series. Whoa. That's about the same estimate for the US as the "Men In Black" series had for extraterrestrials in the US.

Coincidence? You be the judge.

Of course, the "Men In Black" folks actually counted them, and kept track. So their number is more exact and reliable than an estimate from people who don't know the identities or locations of what they are counting. Maybe it is just a coincidence, after all.

That's a relief.

[Chewy]

Pardon. I think I should make a fine distinction.

"How many hard-core militants are online? Some estimates are as many as 100,000. With 2,500 - 5,000 in the U.S."

The SHOWTIME "sleeper cell" series.

ISLAMIC DICTIONARY
Learn the definition and history behind some of the Islamic phrases used during the show. Study Now!

http://www.sho.com/site/sleepercell/home.do

You can also go there to watch an entire episode from the second season.

This is a great series.

The level of your debate would improve by watching it, I think.
holy Hannah... you seriously kill me OMG it's real!! I saws me a show on it... (http://www.amazon.com/Search-History-Loch-Monster-Archives/dp/B0009HMTGW):ohnoes: :lmao:

I am more likely as you are to die at the hands of a citizen of the United States than I am a sleeper cell, the bird flu, killer bees or a poorly made Firestone tires.

[droogsteve]

You wish, hope and pray that someone will believe you.

I made a distinction you seem to have missed.

Here it is again for you.


Again, you haven't provided a real source. Scare tactics are a great promotional tool for Showtime to promote their Sleeper Cell series, therefore I wouldn't take their stats seriously without some sort of reputable source to back them. Another problem: I'm always extremely dubious when the phrase "some estimates" is thrown around. "Some estimates" (including mine) say that 95% of NFL cheerleaders are dying to sleep with me. That doesn't make it fact. You have to take into account the person or group making the estimate and whether they should be taken seriously. Showtime doesn't say where they got that stat, so I'll take it with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.


Even assuming the number is accurate, there's also the fact that the estimate is the number of "hard core militants", not the number of sleeper cells. How is hard core militant defined? It could be anything from a simple fund raiser to a loudmouth campus radical who would shit his pants if push came to shove. Claiming them all as members of sleeper cells is a huge leap.

I certainly acknowledge the threat of radical Islam, as most here on the board know. However, I must also acknowledge the fact that there have been no significant attacks here in the US since 9/11. What are all of the alleged sleeper cells waiting for? Why not strap on explosives and blow up a bus, as is commonly done in Israel? Why not have a couple of guys with AK-47s open fire on the NY Stock Exchange? Why not hijack a gasoline tanker and crash it into a mall in the heartland, where people feel safe from the terrorist threat? The enemy knows that 9/11 happened because of luck and US complacency and that the odds of pulling off a similar spectacular attack are extremely unlikely. These sort of day to day attacks would be easy to pull off and would create massive panic, which is the terrorist goal.


So why haven't we seen any?



The lack of these sort of attacks makes me believe that the entire sleeper cell threat isn't nearly as great as "some estimates" would like us to believe.

[eieio]

holy Hannah... you seriously kill me OMG it's real!! I saws me a show on it... (http://www.amazon.com/Search-History-Loch-Monster-Archives/dp/B0009HMTGW):ohnoes: :lmao:

I am more likely as you are to die at the hands of a citizen of the United States than I am a sleeper cell, the bird flu, killer bees or a poorly made Firestone tires.

Ah, so you are saying that the bird flu, killer bees and poorly made Firestone tires are at the same level of importance or have the same implications to this nation as Islamist Sleeper/Terrorist Cells?

Here's a little test for you.

1. Which of the following is actively working to bring about the downfall of every government which has man made laws?
A. Birds
B. Diseases
C. Insects
D. Tires
E. Islamist Sleeper/Terrorist Cells

2. Which of the following has a goal of replacing every non-Sharia ruled government on Earth with governments that are ruled by Allah's laws?
A. Birds
B. Diseases
C. Insects
D. Tires
E. Islamist Sleeper/Terrorist Cells

Again, you haven't provided a real source. Scare tactics are a great promotional tool for Showtime to promote their Sleeper Cell series, therefore I wouldn't take their stats seriously without some sort of reputable source to back them. Another problem: I'm always extremely dubious when the phrase "some estimates" is thrown around. "Some estimates" say that 95% of NFL cheerleaders are dying to sleep with me. That doesn't make it fact. You have to take into account the person or group making the estimate and whether they should be taken seriously. Showtime doesn't say where they got that stat, so I'll take it with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.


Even assuming the number is accurate, there's also the fact that the estimate is the number of "hard core militants", not the number of sleeper cells. How is hard core militant defined? It could be anything from a simple fund raiser to a loudmouth campus radical who would shit his pants if push came to shove. Claiming them all as members of sleeper cells is a huge leap.

I certainly acknowledge the threat of radical Islam, as most here on the board know. However, I must also acknowledge the fact that there have been no significant attacks here in the US since 9/11. What are all of the alleged sleeper cells waiting for? Why not strap on explosives and blow up a bus, as is commonly done in Israel? Why not have a couple of guys with AK-47s open fire on the NY Stock Exchange? Why not hijack a gasoline tanker and crash it into a mall in the heartland, where people feel safe from the terrorist threat? The enemy knows that 9/11 happened because of luck and US complacency and that the odds of pulling off a similar spectacular attack are extremely unlikely. These sort of day to day attacks would be easy to pull off and would create massive panic, which is the terrorist goal.

So why haven't we seen any?

The lack of these sort of attacks makes me believe that the entire sleeper cell threat isn't nearly as great as "some estimates" would like us to believe.

If you are able to say the above with a straight face then I tip my cap to you.

We have MORE than enough 'hard evidence' to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that:

The Koran can be and IS interpreted by MILLIONS of Islamists around the world (including some in the USA and Canda and the UK & Europe) to support global Islamic domination and the use of violence, terrorism or any other methods deemed necessary to achieve that domination.

There are thousands and thousands who are acting on this belief at this very minute as they have been doing since the early 1980's and the fact that they haven't done more to the USA than they have so far has more to do with THEIR PLANS than the actual threat they pose.

All of this has already been proven, so what's the value of getting bogged down by the estimate of 2,500 or 5,000?

Especially when we know that it only takes 19 to rock America!

Would you say that a prison full of inmates is not much of a threat to escape because they haven't escaped much lately?

Would you say those inmates aren't much of a threat to commit crimes after they are paroled simply because they haven't committed crimes lately?

Would you say that just because likely perps haven't acted according to your expectations that they pose no threat?

[OPP]

Ah, so you are saying that the bird flu, killer bees and poorly made Firestone tires are at the same level of importance or have the same implications to this nation as Islamist Sleeper/Terrorist Cells?

Here's a little test for you.





If you are able to say the above with a straight face then I tip my cap to you.

We have MORE than enough 'hard evidence' to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that:


All of this has already been proven, so what's the value of getting bogged down by the estimate of 2,500 or 5,000?

Especially when we know that it only takes 19 to rock America!

Would you say that a prison full of inmates is not much of a threat to escape because they haven't escaped much lately?

Would you say those inmates aren't much of a threat to commit crimes after they are paroled simply because they haven't committed crimes lately?

Would you say that just because likely perps haven't acted according to your expectations that they pose no threat?



Wow... you seriously need to be in a padded room with a straight jacket.

[droogsteve]

If you are able to say the above with a straight face then I tip my cap to you.

We have MORE than enough 'hard evidence' to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that:

If you have so much hard evidence, please post it.

Right wing blogs do not count.






All of this has already been proven, so what's the value of getting bogged down by the estimate of 2,500 or 5,000?

Especially when we know that it only takes 19 to rock America!

Would you say that a prison full of inmates is not much of a threat to escape because they haven't escaped much lately?

Would you say those inmates aren't much of a threat to commit crimes after they are paroled simply because they haven't committed crimes lately?

Would you say that just because likely perps haven't acted according to your expectations that they pose no threat?

Your prison comparison is ludicrous.


You claim that there are untold thousands here in America that have declared war on us. Yet they haven't launched even a minor attack in five years. What kind of war goes five years without attacking the enemy?

I own a MAK-90, a Glock 19, and a Mossberg 590 shotgun. If I wanted to kill Americans in the name of Allah, I would put them under my loose trenchcoat, load a gym bag with ammo, and jump on the #4 train. When the crowd jumped on at Grand Central Station, I would wait until the doors closed, stand up, and open fire. There is no doubt that I could kill literally hundreds of people with little difficulty before the police were eventually able to send me to claim my 72 virgins. I would be on the news world-wide and be a heroic martyr to radical Islam everywhere.

Why hasn't this happened? Why hasn't one of the thousands of stone killers in Allah's army here in the US launched such an attack? If such killers really did exist, we WOULD have been attacked again.

Even the so called foiled terrorist plots are a joke. A couple of years ago, the FBI announced they had foiled plans to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge. When the details emerged, it turned out that the plotters were talking about cutting the cables with welding torches so the bridge would fall into the East River!! Fucking hilarious, and about as feasible as plotting to bring down the Empire State building with sledgehammers.

While radical talk is common, radical action is relatively rare. Most of the Muslims here who spew anti-US rhetoric are as likely to launch an attack as chickenhawks like Limbaugh and O'Reilly are to leave their mansions and fight in Iraq.

[Chewy]

If you have so much hard evidence, please post it.
Right wing blogs do not count.


You mean provide factual evidence to support claims made that’s just silly talk Droogsteve … please you repeat the lie over and over again then it becomes REAL… you don’t need facts just to simply repeat the claim over and over again and suggest you have evidence to support it.

[eieio]

Interestingly, Naji does not explicitly say that the U.S. invasion of Iraq has played into this strategy, but he does counsel his jihadi brothers in Iraq to be patient, telling them that victory can come at any time. Once the U.S. withdraws from Iraq, he forecasts, its media halo will dissipate and the regimes that supported it will be vulnerable. The jihadis should quickly take advantage of the situation by invading countries that border Iraq, where they will be welcomed as liberators.

I'm just sayin postin.

[droogsteve]

I'm just sayin postin.

Were we talking about Iraq?


And this explains the fact of no domestic attacks in the US in 5 years.....

..how?

[bergshadow]

The jihadis should quickly take advantage of the situation by invading countries that border Iraq, where they will be welcomed as liberators. Damn if Rumsfeld doesn't look like the genius he isn't, if he's got the jihadists talking like that. Uncle Ho was right: get 'em by the political theory, and their testicles are up for grabs.

I'm sure the Iranians, Syrians, Turks, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Kurds in general will just be throwing those rose petals and handing over the virgins like Christmas finally got through to them, that wonderful day of fundie liberation from their indoor plumbing and electric lights.

[Zooch]

Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes - It is foolish to fear that which you cannot avoid

To be honest though, the only likely war with Iran would be a cold war.

[sweet]

I don't get why all of you people would actually run away to Canada or Mexico if a draft was called. You should just leave now then. If you want to be a citizen of the USA then you should fulfill your duties and one of them is Serve the United States, if required, in times of war or national emergency. You may be called to serve in the military or help U.S. military efforts in some capacity. If you wouldn't serve the US if a draft was called then you shouldn't vote or do any of the other things that are given to you when you are a citizen.

[dead]

holy Hannah... you seriously kill me OMG it's real!! I saws me a show on it... (http://www.amazon.com/Search-History-Loch-Monster-Archives/dp/B0009HMTGW):ohnoes: :lmao:

I am more likely as you are to die at the hands of a citizen of the United States than I am a sleeper cell, the bird flu, killer bees or a poorly made Firestone tires.
LOL i bet that stuff is so much full of propaganda, they don't even want people outside The us to access it.


We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States.

[YouEnjoyMyself]

I don't get why all of you people would actually run away to Canada or Mexico if a draft was called. You should just leave now then. If you want to be a citizen of the USA then you should fulfill your duties and one of them is Serve the United States, if required, in times of war or national emergency. You may be called to serve in the military or help U.S. military efforts in some capacity. If you wouldn't serve the US if a draft was called then you shouldn't vote or do any of the other things that are given to you when you are a citizen.

No, fuck that. Show me where it says a requirement of citizenship is military service.

The gov't exists because of us, and it exists for us. So don't give us this shit about having a duty...the only duty I have to our gov't is to pay taxes.

[Chewy]

You may be called to serve in the military or help U.S. military efforts in some capacity. If you wouldn't serve the US if a draft was called then you shouldn't vote or do any of the other things that are given to you when you are a citizen.

Rather communist of you comrade Sweet.

LOL i bet that stuff is so much full of propaganda, they don't even want people outside The us to access it. Well the haze is pretty thick and they have done a great job in discrediting the voices from the EU Feedback from Europeans is not really welcomed... funny.

[Viet Era Marine]

I admit, I'm scared. Scared enough to leave the country. I'm currently packing my things and will be leaving the country within the week, following Christmas. I cannot risk the possibility of a war actually happening.






Bon voyage to you, write when you get there.

Regards,
VEM

[Nocturnal]

I don't get why all of you people would actually run away to Canada or Mexico if a draft was called. You should just leave now then. If you want to be a citizen of the USA then you should fulfill your duties and one of them is Serve the United States, if required, in times of war or national emergency. You may be called to serve in the military or help U.S. military efforts in some capacity. If you wouldn't serve the US if a draft was called then you shouldn't vote or do any of the other things that are given to you when you are a citizen.

I feel I would be required to enlist were our nation in danger. I do not feel required to enlist to serve the purposes of some nutjob or Haliburton.

That said I am out of the draft age, so I may join the ranks of others and cast dispersions against people with whom I do not share the same risks of actualy being drafted.

[KiruKlan]

I don't get why all of you people would actually run away to Canada or Mexico if a draft was called. You should just leave now then. If you want to be a citizen of the USA then you should fulfill your duties and one of them is Serve the United States, if required, in times of war or national emergency. You may be called to serve in the military or help U.S. military efforts in some capacity. If you wouldn't serve the US if a draft was called then you shouldn't vote or do any of the other things that are given to you when you are a citizen.

First, I want to thank everyone for the responses, and again thank eieio for the many laughs.

But Sweet, your message caught my attention. I don't believe we're in either a war nor a national emergency. This current conflict is an invasion, a policing position. I agree that one should defend their country when it is in true direct danger, but despite what our government tells us, we are not there.

[eieio]

Damn if Rumsfeld doesn't look like the genius he isn't, if he's got the jihadists talking like that. Uncle Ho was right: get 'em by the political theory, and their testicles are up for grabs.

I'm sure the Iranians, Syrians, Turks, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Kurds in general will just be throwing those rose petals and handing over the virgins like Christmas finally got through to them, that wonderful day of fundie liberation from their indoor plumbing and electric lights.

Uh, how did al Qaeda take control in violent, war lorded Somalia?