Divide and Settle: Iraq Solution?

[StCyril]

The removal of Saddam from Iraq was a positive step in the right direction for the country. Most people would agree with this. But what do we do with it now?

Iraq was a result of the carving up of the old Ottoman Empire by the British and the French, and we all know how good Britain is at making borders. They made the same mistakes in Africa which led to years upon years of unending tribal warfare for independence. (Ironic that France and Britain now criticise those fighting in Iraq don't you think?)

Anyway Iraq, like most countries in the middle east are divided into subsections each with different tribes of Muslims. If we want to end the strife, why not redraw the borders, create new countries out of the old one that has been nothing but a burden since its formation. Give each tribe free rule over its own territory. Wouldn't that end the struggle for power?

[Kazimierz]

And you get subgroup after subgroup claiming that they too should be sovereign, and you have tiny little states all over the place trying to pick fights with one another. Dividing Iraq would lead to Shiites having control of most the oil fields, and undoubtedly Sunni violence because of that.

The country needs to remain together, but they must find some way to eliminate the sectarian violence, and ensure that the rights of all groups are protected, and that all people will be able to benefit from Iraq's oil riches.

[StCyril]

And you get subgroup after subgroup claiming that they too should be sovereign, and you have tiny little states all over the place trying to pick fights with one another. Dividing Iraq would lead to Shiites having control of most the oil fields, and undoubtedly Sunni violence because of that.

The country needs to remain together, but they must find some way to eliminate the sectarian violence, and ensure that the rights of all groups are protected, and that all people will be able to benefit from Iraq's oil riches.

And you think that will happen? You cut off one head, two more grow into place. The original borders drawn up by the Euros aren't working. Pakistan and India hate each other, Afganistan has about 5 different ethnicities that hate each other. Iraq is in a similar boat. Turkey is also in that boat. If you were to divide each country up and redraw the borders so that they are around the tribes rather then nonsense, it will stop at least some of the problems. If they still want to fight after that, let them, because that is the best thing anyone can do for them I think. There will never been a United Country in the Middle East as long as people hate each other. So separate them, give them each what they want; Soveriegnty over thier own lands rather then having to submit to a ruling body.

[Kazimierz]

And you think that will happen? You cut off one head, two more grow into place. The original borders drawn up by the Euros aren't working. Pakistan and India hate each other, Afganistan has about 5 different ethnicities that hate each other. Iraq is in a similar boat. Turkey is also in that boat. If you were to divide each country up and redraw the borders so that they are around the tribes rather then nonsense, it will stop at least some of the problems. If they still want to fight after that, let them, because that is the best thing anyone can do for them I think. There will never been a United Country in the Middle East as long as people hate each other. So separate them, give them each what they want; Soveriegnty over thier own lands rather then having to submit to a ruling body.

And you think creating national borders based on ethnicity or religion will not lead to genocide?

What about the Sunnis that live in Shiite dominated areas? Vice versa? Etc? And you think that all of the Sunnis/Shiites/etc would all agree on the same "ruling body"? People of the same ethnicity or religion do NOT all think alike. People will always hate each other. People in America hate each other for fuck's sake. That doesn't mean that different people can't live and work together.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. There was a united, sovereign, and stable country with European drawn borders in Iraq already, but that's another story.

[StCyril]

What about the Sunnis that live in Shiite dominated areas? Vice versa? Etc? And you think that all of the Sunnis/Shiites/etc would all agree on the same "ruling body"? .

Alright... look at this picture:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_ethnic_1978.jpg

This is the division of different Religions and Ethnicities. You don't think that drawing the borders in this manor would help things at least be better then they are right now? You'd be giving each group what they want: Dominion over there own land. As for those living in areas dominated by others, they should be given the option to either relocate to the territory belonging to thier people, or just deal with thier situation if they chose to stay. I think most of them would jump at a chance like that. I'm not saying organizing it would be easy, but I think its a better bet then trying to install one sovereign government in a country with a history of division and ethnic cleansing.

Comparing the division of the Middle East to America is a bit of a stretch don't you think? For one, people here have somewhat more freedom. We don't have ethnic cleansing, or people walking through the streets with AK-47s. America is bigger then Iraq, Afgan, etc.

[Kazimierz]

As for those living in areas dominated by others, they should be given the option to either relocate to the territory belonging to thier people, or just deal with thier situation if they chose to stay. I think most of them would jump at a chance like that.

You really think it's just that easy? Just up and leave your life because borders have been drawn to create a theocracy of which you're not part of the dominant religion? Would you even have time to leave? What you're talking about is the same thing that our pal Hitler wanted to do in Germany with his Aryans, but on a smaller, more widespread scale. Seperating people by ethnicity and religion is not progress in any way, shape, or form.

Comparing the division of the Middle East to America is a bit of a stretch don't you think? For one, people here have somewhat more freedom. We don't have ethnic cleansing, or people walking through the streets with AK-47s. America is bigger then Iraq, Afgan, etc.

So why does it work here? Iraq had democracy forced upon it, there will be growing pains. But with enough time, and with enough determined, uncorrupted, and non-Sectarian minded leaders, then freedom can flourish there too.

[JerkyMyTurky]

Dividing up Iraq into seperate nations will create 10X the problems that you are seeing now. The main group in Iraq that wants independence is the Kurds and there are Kurdish populations in each of the surrounding countries (Syria, Iran and Turkey), who will also seek an independent nation if one is established in Iraq. None of those countries want to see itself split apart and weakened. They will do everything in their power to oppose and will end up with more wars and more deaths, all unnecessary.

Forcing the nation to split up, is the first sign of admitting failure at achieving true peace in the country. It's like seperating a brother and sister, sending one child to a grandparent and the other to an aunt/uncle, because they can't get along under the same roof. The biggest Kurdish population is in Turkey and although the Kurds in the region haven't been given equal rights as Turks, they are being treated a lot better due to political pressure from the EU. That's how you tackle issues of inequality, via political pressure, but by physically imposing new borders, which solves nothing and adds more conflict into the region.

Although the U.S. publicly states they want a united Iraq, I believe the ultimate goal is to indeed split the country up into 3 parts. Not only does it weaken one potential power in the region, it weakens pretty much all the countries in the region in Syria, Iran and Turkey. I don't doubt we will see more trouble in the region and a divided Iraq within 10-20 years.

[kledster]

Th

Anyway Iraq, like most countries in the middle east are divided into subsections each with different tribes of Muslims. If we want to end the strife, why not redraw the borders, create new countries out of the old one that has been nothing but a burden since its formation. Give each tribe free rule over its own territory. Wouldn't that end the struggle for power?

no. actually, we can't re-arrange their country. haven't we already learned that we should not get involved with other countries problems? is there no end to the madness? illegally invading a country is one thing, and completely obliterating their economic system and entire infrastructure is another thing... but re-organizing their territory would create infinite problems that would never end.

[DestroFun]

Firstly, such step would mean nothing but accepting helplessness about settling order by any other means. Secondly, this wouldn't bring no benifits anyway inasmuch as the gulf between Sunni and Shiites is much more deeper: these people have formed special psychology of war during their history, long before the birth of Islam. Dividing and conquering have always been their main watchwords. Take a look at any picture dedicated to the Ancient East - you'll scarcely see a peasant drawing the plough behind; in all
possibility it'll be warriors holding the weapon in their hands.
This is, if you want, their lifestyle. And the coercive drawing the borders from the outside wouldn't change it as well as true democracy can't be settled by anyone except these people themselves, as a result of their own historical evolution. Do not you forget that all you're talking about - democracy, sectarian violence - are results of not only some abstractive ideas, religion and political system, but also of attitude of people's minds. Traditions and mentality are very strong terms, especially refering to states of the Middle
East, and you lose slight of it when you talk about resources and struggle for power.

[Nocturnal]

Dividing Iraq into sections seems the only workable solution at this point. People seem to have made up their minds on that issue years ago, despite the changing reality the arguments against it have changed at all.

A unified Iraq doesn't seem very possible does it? What are you hoping to happen? That next month our wonderful leaders will magically find the solution to the strife?

I support Senator Biden's plan, moving Iraq into a loose confederacy, sharing oil revenues and retaining local autonomy in most matters. The Iraqi government would only handle border defense and monetary issues. This method has already worked in Bosnia. Similiar circumstances, similar solution. No?

[chalupa]

Dividing Iraq into sections seems the only workable solution at this point. People seem to have made up their minds on that issue years ago, despite the changing reality the arguments against it have changed at all.

A unified Iraq doesn't seem very possible does it? What are you hoping to happen? That next month our wonderful leaders will magically find the solution to the strife?

I support Senator Biden's plan, moving Iraq into a loose confederacy, sharing oil revenues and retaining local autonomy in most matters. The Iraqi government would only handle border defense and monetary issues. This method has already worked in Bosnia. Similiar circumstances, similar solution. No?

No, and I'll tell you why...these people are not going to "share" nicely. There is too much money at stake. Bosnia is not sitting on top of vast oil wealth, and the comparison, whilst interesting, is inherently weak.

There is no example in the history of the world of a govt that has huge oil deposits not becoming corrupted with the power and $$. Oil is the devil (and I'm only half joking about that).

[Nocturnal]

No, and I'll tell you why...these people are not going to "share" nicely. There is too much money at stake. Bosnia is not sitting on top of vast oil wealth, and the comparison, whilst interesting, is inherently weak.

There is no example in the history of the world of a govt that has huge oil deposits not becoming corrupted with the power and $$. Oil is the devil (and I'm only half joking about that).

You assume they are irational, I assume the opposite. They aren't very nice people, but money is the universal motivator. The Sunnis fight because they are afraid of losing their source of income, same with the Shia. Sure ethnic hatred is in there, but money makes people behave.

Now if there was a real oil sharing revenue program, all parties would have an incentive to keep the peace. Fighting prevents the money from flowing... why fight and get nothing when you can have peace and get your fair share?

The Bosnia parallel is as good as you can find.

Now, I'd like to ask again. To all those that find the split nation so objectionable, what is your solution? You still believe a unified Iraq is possible?

[chalupa]

I don't find it objectionable...I just don't think it will work.

Who would be in charge of the money distribution? The UN? I have about as much faith in them as I do the Bush administration.

Yikes.

[Nocturnal]

I don't find it objectionable...I just don't think it will work.

Who would be in charge of the money distribution? The UN? I have about as much faith in them as I do the Bush administration.

Yikes.

The Iraqi federal government would do that.

[chalupa]

The Iraqi federal government would do that.

In an ideal world, maybe one imagined under Rawls' "veil of ignorance," your plan works. However, the Iraqi govt has already demonstrated their incompetence, though to be fair, they weren't given an ideal situation under which to start.

If everyone over there started again at 0, like there is no money in the banks, no guns, bombs, etc, then I truly do think they would set up an effective federal system that is fair to all. They would have do it out of self-preservation, ie, by eliminating the advantage for any one group, you ensure fairness for all.

But there isn't a level playing field there right now, so I don't think it is possible to even begin to think they will all of a sudden begin sharing equally. Too many people have too much $$ at risk.

One strong, centralized, secular govt is the only way to go...any autonomy will only balkanize (no, not Vulcanize...no live long and prosper here) the region, and outside regional influences will look to capitalize on it. Too many players have their hands in this...

It seems as though only an authoritarian dictator who rules with an iron fist could keep that country in line.

Oh. Never mind.

Seriously, though, they need a bigger, stronger central govt that is benevolent. If the central govt is weak, the precarious balance between the factions will lead to full-fledged civil war, as opposed to low level sectarian violence. And you can be sure the arabs, persians, kurds, et al, will become involved, and in the end, it will be the Jews' fault.

[Nocturnal]

In an ideal world, maybe one imagined under Rawls' "veil of ignorance," your plan works. However, the Iraqi govt has already demonstrated their incompetence, though to be fair, they weren't given an ideal situation under which to start.

One strong, centralized, secular govt is the only way to go...any autonomy will only balkanize (no, not Vulcanize...no live long and prosper here) the region, and outside regional influences will look to capitalize on it. Too many players have their hands in this...



It has failed because it is constantly being attacked and co-opted. There are enough powerful interests in Iraq that if they wished the government to be stable, it would probably wind up being so.

A strong secular government is an impossibility at this point. Unless we install a dictator, in that case the bloodletting will overshadow anything we have seen under Saddam or the occupation.

[Viet Era Marine]

The problem that will be run into, no matter who
does it, or where these folks are 'settled', is that they
still think like 'Tribes' not like a Nation.

In the US, we tend to the mind set of 'Being Americans'
first, then perhaps state identity (I'm from Minn / IA /
NY, etc.), then come Cities (Boston / Dallas / LA, ECT),
last come ethnicities(SP) (white / black / brown / yellow, ECT).
So, how did this US mind set come about? Well. the very
first thing we, as a Nation did, was gain our independence.
You might not have trusted that Georgia bastard as far as you
could spit, but you'd trust your life to that other American!

The tribes living in Iraq have never had this kind of mind altering
experience, so they still tend to think like; "Sunnis' / Shias' or Kurds'".

The best thing that could happen, is for Iran to invade. It
would make them drop the 'tribal think' and adopt a National
Identity.

Just IMHO.

Regards,
VEM