View Full Version : illegal immigrant kills 4 children in bus crash
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 12:31 AM
Woman Charged in Minn. Bus Crash Deaths
By ELIZABETH DUNBAR – 1 day ago
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The driver of a van that hit a school bus in a crash that killed four children was charged Friday with four counts of criminal vehicular homicide and two lesser charges, authorities said.
The woman, identified as Alianiss Nunez Morales, 23, of Minneota, failed to stop at a stop sign Tuesday before hitting the bus, which was carrying 28 students from Lakeview School, a prosecutor said. The accident happened near the small town of Cottonwood in southwestern Minnesota.
Morales was also charged with a stop sign violation and for driving without a valid license, Lyon County Attorney Richard Maes said.
Authorities said Morales is not the woman's real name, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents were trying to figure out her true identity. Claude Arnold, special agent in charge of investigations, said Morales told investigators she was from Mexico, and his agency believes she is in the country illegally.
Morales does not have a Minnesota driver's license, and "she doesn't have a (driver's license) anywhere that we're aware of," said Lt. Mark Peterson of the Minnesota State Patrol.
The criminal vehicular homicide charges are felonies, each punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a $20,000 fine. The other charges are misdemeanors.
Morales was expected to make her first court appearance Friday.
Morales told police through an interpreter that she stopped at the stop sign, according to a criminal complaint filed Friday.
"She stated that she stopped for the stop sign and that when she took off, the bus hit her," according to a statement of probable cause.
The bus driver, Dennis Devereaux, told police it appeared the van wasn't going to stop, and "he did not have time to hit the brakes or accelerate."
Two brothers, the daughter of a teacher at Lakeview School and the son of a former teacher, all passengers on the bus, were killed. Six people, five of them students, remained hospitalized Friday at Avera McKennan Hospital & University Health Center in Sioux Falls, S.D., spokesman Kenyon Gleason said. One was close to being released, two were in fair condition and two were serious; the adult at the hospital was in fair condition.
Another student remained hospitalized at Mayo Clinic in fair condition.
Funerals for Hunter Javens, 9, and Jesse Javens, 13, were to be held at the school Monday.
A funeral for Emilee Olson, 9, was set for Sunday at a Cottonwood church, while arrangements for Reed Stevens, 12, of Marshall, were pending.
SOURCE (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hsVaVEEhIcm7LrdNzHveocrCLfIgD8UVID600)
well at least she wont be deported my home state is way to liberal to let a murder go.
Father Max
02-24-2008, 12:36 AM
Why did you post this? Plenty of natural born American citizens kill people every day.
He posted this because it's an illegal immigrant and she killed 4 kids. Which is relevant to the presidential elections.
slapnpopbass
02-24-2008, 12:41 AM
Lets put her in a trebuchet and send that bitch back to Mexico.
Father Max
02-24-2008, 12:42 AM
He posted this because it's an illegal immigrant and she killed 4 kids.
What does it matter if she's illegal? If I started a thread about how some guy ran over some people no one will care, but this is about an illegal one, so everyone will come in here and bitch.
Just try her as a citizen and get her locked up.
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 12:42 AM
He posted this because it's an illegal immigrant and she killed 4 kids.
yup. I did
and and I would like to know how a illiegal got a job working for a school district and a liscense to drive a school bus
Lets put her in a trebuchet and send that bitch back to Mexico.
that wont happen here buddy from what local radio shows says she will probbly be staying
slapnpopbass
02-24-2008, 12:43 AM
What does it matter if she's illegal?
Read that statement a few more times.
She is here ILLEGALLY and killed American citizens.
Father Max
02-24-2008, 12:45 AM
Read that statement a few more times.
She is here ILLEGALLY and killed American citizens.
But what are we supposed to do? We should try her as a citizen, and treat her like an AMERICAN that killed 4 people. Reiterating that's she illegal is only going to fudge the trial and she'll get off with murder.
Like I said before, treat her like a citizen and lock this cunt up.
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 12:50 AM
But what are we supposed to do? We should try her as a citizen, and treat her like an AMERICAN that killed 4 people. Reiterating that's she illegal is only going to fudge the trial and she'll get off with murder.
Like I said before, treat her like a citizen and lock this cunt up.
no dont think so they said they were going to try her anyways
Father Max
02-24-2008, 12:52 AM
no dont think so they said they were going to try her anyways
Don't think so what? What are you trying to say?
The only way she'll get proper justice is if she is tried here, and punished by an American court of law. If she gets deported she gets off scot free, which is why I have no idea why slapnpopbass wants that done.
Don't think so what? What are you trying to say?
The only way she'll get proper justice is if she is tried here, and punished by an American court of law. If she gets deported she gets off scot free, which is why I have no idea why slapnpopbass wants that done.
Try her here by our laws, duh. But don't ignore her citizen status for the greater debate about the dangers and problems of illegal immigration.
Father Max
02-24-2008, 01:06 AM
Try her here by our laws, duh. But don't ignore her citizen status for the greater debate about the dangers and problems of illegal immigration.
But can you really use this article as a debate to illegal immigration? I mean, I can post an article about Ted Bundy, but that doesn't mean I can use that article to explain the dangers and problems of being an American citizen.
But can you really use this article as a debate to illegal immigration? I mean, I can post an article about Ted Bundy, but that doesn't mean I can use that article to explain the dangers and problems of being an American citizen.
The point here is that regardless of what US citizens break laws, if our borders were secure, this would be one less person committing crimes in the US and 4 children that were legal citizens that would still be alive.
If you can't see the logic behind that, you're not thinking hard enough. of course a secure border won't solve ALL our problems, but the ones it will solve or prevent, like this one are well worth avoiding.
Why are you so against attributing the actions of an illegal immigrant to an illegal immigrant?
silverspade14
02-24-2008, 01:28 AM
We should send illegals back to their own country so they can kill their own people. I want our youth to be killed by natural born Americans.
And I'm 100% serious.
yup. I did
and and I would like to know how a illiegal got a job working for a school district and a liscense to drive a school bus
She wasn't and she didn't. She was the one who hit the bus and...
Morales does not have a Minnesota driver's license, and "she doesn't have a (driver's license) anywhere that we're aware of," said Lt. Mark Peterson of the Minnesota State Patrol.
The point here is that regardless of what US citizens break laws, if our borders were secure, this would be one less person committing crimes in the US and 4 children that were legal citizens that would still be alive.
If you can't see the logic behind that, you're not thinking hard enough. of course a secure border won't solve ALL our problems, but the ones it will solve or prevent, like this one are well worth avoiding.
Why are you so against attributing the actions of an illegal immigrant to an illegal immigrant?
She could have been a legal immigrant and she could have done the exact same thing: run a stop sign and hit the bus. Her status, legal or illegal, really is of no relevance. It's simply one more crime.
She wasn't and she didn't. She was the one who hit the bus and...
She could have been a legal immigrant and she could have done the exact same thing: run a stop sign and hit the bus. Her status, legal or illegal, really is of no relevance. It's simply one more crime.
Wrong. She entered illegally because, like the case with illegal immigration without intent to be malicious in general, she could not afford to do so legally.
Therefore, had we had a secure border and she was not able to enter illegally, and she wouldn't have entered legally either, she wouldn't have been here at all, and those 4 kids would still be alive.
Wrong. She entered illegally because, like the case with illegal immigration without intent to be malicious in general, she could not afford to do so legally.
Therefore, had we had a secure border and she was not able to enter illegally, and she wouldn't have entered legally either, she wouldn't have been here at all, and those 4 kids would still be alive.
Obviously if she had not been in the country at all, everyone would be happy and fine. But that's the ultra-best case scenario, and seems to be wishful thinking these days, along with Social Security reforms and the mess with healthcare.
droogsteve
02-24-2008, 03:03 AM
But what are we supposed to do? We should try her as a citizen, and treat her like an AMERICAN that killed 4 people. Reiterating that's she illegal is only going to fudge the trial and she'll get off with murder.
Like I said before, treat her like a citizen and lock this cunt up.
You're missing the point. If the borders weren't a fucking sieve and our government didn't encourage illegal immigration, those four people would be alive right now.
Just like the ILLEGALS (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292994,00.html) that murdered three bright African-American college students in Newark New Jersey. One of them was actually out on bail for CHILD RAPE when he killed these kids. As unbelievable as it sounds, it's true. An illegal immigrant who should have been deported as soon as he was caught is arrested for aggravated assault and weapons possession. Despite the fact he's illegal and has no legal means of income to show the court, he's released on bail. While out on bail he RAPES A CHILD. He's somehow AGAIN released on bail.
And he goes on to slaughter these poor kids.
Are all illegals killers? Of course not. But how can you tell? They have NO documentation. They could be poor campesinos or they could be Al Qaeda, how the fuck do we know? Also, aside from the fact they flood the market with cheap labor and screw poor uneducated Americans out of a decent wage, they also screw LEGAL immigrants who take the time and trouble to obey our laws. Every time we give amnesty to illegals, we tell law abiding immigrants "Shit, you're stupid, you should have just snuck over the border!"
A nation who can't control it's borders is not a sovereign nation.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 03:15 AM
What does it matter if she's illegal? If I started a thread about how some guy ran over some people no one will care, but this is about an illegal one, so everyone will come in here and bitch.
Just try her as a citizen and get her locked up.
There is a very good reason why the fact that she is an illegal immigrant is important.
The whole point of an immigration process is a government wants to ensure that the immigrants coming into its country are honest, hard working, and understand what is expected of them as a citizen. By entering a country illegally, you are bypassing this entire screening process.
This woman clearly does not respect the laws and responsibility of driving in America. Therefore, she was not ready to accept the responsibility of being an American citizen. She was never suppose to be in the country. She did not have a license, ignored the rules of the road, and undoubtedly did not have valid insurance.
By ignoring the immigration process in place, this woman ultimately caused an unimaginable lifetime of suffering for four families. That is why the fact that she is an illegal immigrant matters.
(Note: I am aware that the proper immigration process is not perfect, and people like this can get through legitimately. The current process is not perfect, but it is better than nothing. Also, I know that a native born citizen is capable of doing these things too. However, that does not justify the tolerance of illegal immigrants who commit these crimes.)
EDIT: Plus what droogsteve said. His point was spot on. Very well put.
Do you really think immigration process screens for bad drivers? America doesn't lack bad drivers and it wouldn't even if there weren't any immigrants. All of you put more importance that she's illegal than on the fact that she killed 4 people and that totally blow my mind. Would you really be happy to have her deported and know that she gets off unpunished in Mexico rather than sending her to jail in the US?
Patunox
02-24-2008, 04:40 AM
Therefore, had we had a secure border and she was not able to enter illegally, and she wouldn't have entered legally either, she wouldn't have been here at all, and those 4 kids would still be alive.
__________________
This is what we call propaganda by appeal of emotions. It is irrelevant and xenophobic. It was an accident, and she broke the law. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO IT.
You know what also kills hundreds of people daily? U.S. policy and imperialist aggression. See, I can play the same game too.
The whole point of an immigration process is a government wants to ensure that the immigrants coming into its country are honest, hard working, and understand what is expected of them as a citizen.
Propaganda as well. Who says citizens are law abiding, "honest," "working" and all that fluff? If you ask me, deviance occurss in any society, regardless of "citizen status." Anyone remember the fucked up legal shooters that have been occurring lately? What about the daily murders in Washington D.C and the ghetto? We sure as hell expect and RESPECT them because they're legal...but at least they're not illegal...otherwise, it's simply a greater atrocity! :rolleyes:
Do you really think immigration process screens for bad drivers? America doesn't lack bad drivers and it wouldn't even if there weren't any immigrants. All of you put more importance that she's illegal than on the fact that she killed 4 people and that totally blow my mind. Would you really be happy to have her deported and know that she gets off unpunished in Mexico rather than sending her to jail in the US?
WAY TO MISS THE FUCKING POINT. Had she been able to come here legally, do you think she would have done so illegally? Fuck no. Therefore, preventing the illegal means of entry would have kept her out and in this particular case, saved lives.
Holy fuck...how stupid can people be that they seriously cannot grasp this simple concept.
No, keeping these people out won't end vehicular mansluaghter, but it certainly helps cut it down by at least four 9-year-olds.
Patunox
02-24-2008, 05:21 AM
No, keeping these people out won't end vehicular mansluaghter, but it certainly helps cut it down by at least four 9-year-olds.
Opinion. What are you sources to this study you profess to exist?
WAY TO MISS THE FUCKING POINT. Had she been able to come here legally, do you think she would have done so illegally? Fuck no. Therefore, preventing the illegal means of entry would have kept her out and in this particular case, saved lives.
Holy fuck...how stupid can people be that they seriously cannot grasp this simple concept.
No, keeping these people out won't end vehicular mansluaghter, but it certainly helps cut it down by at least four 9-year-olds.
Being able to afford the process for legal citizenship in no way means she would not have caused the accident, though. And the apparent incompetence of our government in stopping illegal immigration is an entirely different matter, though it goes without saying if she had been kept out, the little ones would be alive. That's just common sense.
WAY TO MISS THE FUCKING POINT. Had she been able to come here legally, do you think she would have done so illegally? Fuck no. Therefore, preventing the illegal means of entry would have kept her out and in this particular case, saved lives.
No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if she's illegal, if she were legal and ran over those 4 kids, it would have been just as bad, not slightly less bad as you seem to imply.
You seem to think that it would have mattered if she simply wasn't there and you blame that she was there for the fact that she was illegal. What if she was a legal? Or even born here ... would that have made the accident less tragic? No. Would it have saved those 4 kids? No. If it wasn't her that ran over those kids it could very well have been somebody else.
The fact that people make a political issue out of a tragic accident is a testimony to the sad state America is in right now.
Sketcher
02-24-2008, 12:38 PM
No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if she's illegal, if she were legal and ran over those 4 kids, it would have been just as bad, not slightly less bad as you seem to imply.
You seem to think that it would have mattered if she simply wasn't there and you blame that she was there for the fact that she was illegal. What if she was a legal? Or even born here ... would that have made the accident less tragic? No. Would it have saved those 4 kids? No. If it wasn't her that ran over those kids it could very well have been somebody else.
If she hadn't been able to sneak over the border, those kids would still be alive. That is fact. Try reading Droog's post again.
If she hadn't been able to sneak over the border, those kids would still be alive. That is fact. Try reading Droog's post again.
And if she had been a legal citizen, they would still have died.
Sketcher
02-24-2008, 12:52 PM
And if she had been a legal citizen, they would still have died.
And if I only had one leg, I wouldn't be able to walk. Oh, and if I was blind, I wouldn't be able to see! Hey, and how about this - if I was a girl, I'd have tits! How the fuck does that have anything to do with anything? The fact is, SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. If our government was doing their job, THEY WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. You're argument is the dumbest argument I've ever seen.
And if I only had one leg, I wouldn't be able to walk. Oh, and if I was blind, I wouldn't be able to see! Hey, and how about this - if I was a girl, I'd have tits! How the fuck does that have anything to do with anything? The fact is, SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. If our government was doing their job, THEY WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. You're argument is the dumbest argument I've ever seen.
Dude, our government isn't doing their job, so that point is moot. She was illegal and was there. If she had been legal, she would have been there. Either way, the kids were doomed because of her, not her status as an illegal.
Opinion. What are you sources to this study you profess to exist?
Rather, it's fact. If she weren't in this country, how could she have run that stop sign and killed those kids?
And if she had been a legal citizen, they would still have died.
The chances of her getting into an accident after becoming a licensed driver would logically drop dramatically. She had no license, therefore little knowledge about driving safety and rules. She couldn't get a license because she was illegal. Therefore, the reason the children are dead is because she is here illegally, not just because she's here.
No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if she's illegal, if she were legal and ran over those 4 kids, it would have been just as bad, not slightly less bad as you seem to imply.
You seem to think that it would have mattered if she simply wasn't there and you blame that she was there for the fact that she was illegal. What if she was a legal? Or even born here ... would that have made the accident less tragic? No. Would it have saved those 4 kids? No. If it wasn't her that ran over those kids it could very well have been somebody else.
The fact that people make a political issue out of a tragic accident is a testimony to the sad state America is in right now.
Refer to the above reasoning.
Propaganda as well. Who says citizens are law abiding, "honest," "working" and all that fluff? If you ask me, deviance occurss in any society, regardless of "citizen status." Anyone remember the fucked up legal shooters that have been occurring lately? What about the daily murders in Washington D.C and the ghetto? We sure as hell expect and RESPECT them because they're legal...but at least they're not illegal...otherwise, it's simply a greater atrocity! :rolleyes:
I don't know what nation you're referring to, but here committing a crime is illegal.
The chances of her getting into an accident after becoming a licensed driver would logically drop dramatically. She had no license, therefore little knowledge about driving safety and rules.
I knew what a stop sign meant loooong before I ever got a driver's license. I'm sure I knew what it meant in elementary school. This isn't brain surgery she failed at, it was a common sense thing.
I knew what a stop sign meant loooong before I ever got a driver's license. I'm sure I knew what it meant in elementary school. This isn't brain surgery she failed at, it was a common sense thing.
Well perhaps then she would have failed a driving test if she would have gone to take one. But she couldn't because she is here illegally.
Sketcher
02-24-2008, 01:33 PM
Dude, our government isn't doing their job, so that point is moot. She was illegal and was there. If she had been legal, she would have been there. Either way, the kids were doomed because of her, not her status as an illegal.
Are fucking kidding me? Her illegal status is EXACTLY what doomed those kids. She should not have even been behind the wheel of that car, much less be anywhere near those kids. Stop saying "if she were legal". That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, she was illegal. The fact is, she should not have been there. The fact is, if she hadn't broken the law and came here illegally, those kids would still be alive. When innocent lives are ended by someone who is not even allowed in this country, and yet is here, their status has EVERYTHING to do with it.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 02:25 PM
Are fucking kidding me? Her illegal status is EXACTLY what doomed those kids. She should not have even been behind the wheel of that car, much less me anywhere near those kids. Stop saying "if she were legal". That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, she was illegal. The fact is, she should not have been there. The fact is, if she hadn't broken the law and came here illegally, those kids would still be alive. When innocent lives are ended by someone who is not even allowed in this country, and yet is here, their status has EVERYTHING to do with it.
I wouldn't bother wasting your effort. I completely agree with you, but we are either arguing with a bunch of 12 year olds, or actual illegal immigrants (maybe both). That is the only way I can see people refusing this blatantly to follow or acknowledge logic. Some of the people here are either really bias, or can't even string together a basic argument with a proper flow of logic.
I wouldn't bother wasting your effort. I completely agree with you, but we are either arguing with a bunch of 12 year olds, or actual illegal immigrants (maybe both). That is the only way I can see people refusing this blatantly to follow or acknowledge logic. Some of the people here are either really bias, or can't even string together a basic argument with a proper flow of logic.
Took a page out of Faux News book of debating have you? I suggest calling everybody that doesn't agree with you un-American and unpatriotic, that really goes down well.
You fail!
Took a page out of Faux News book of debating have you? I suggest calling everybody that doesn't agree with you un-American and unpatriotic, that really goes down well.
You fail!
How about rising above and trying to form an intelligent argument instead of resorting to those same "Faux News" debating tactics?
The woman was here illegally. She could have had better driving instruction had she had a driving test, but she couldn't get one because she's here illegally. Therefore, her illegal status led to the death of the four kids.
Reason with me.
How about rising above and trying to form an intelligent argument instead of resorting to those same "Faux News" debating tactics?
The woman was here illegally. She could have had better driving instruction had she had a driving test, but she couldn't get one because she's here illegally. Therefore, her illegal status led to the death of the four kids.
Reason with me.
It is unknow what her driving skills are. She could very well have had a drivers license back in Mexico or whereever she was from and the only reason she didn't have one now was because she was illegal. So just because she didn't have a license doesn't mean she couldn't drive.
That said ... how many accidents are caused by people that aren't illegals ?Lets say 95% but it's probably more so clearly being illegal has nothing to do with driving skills. Being an illegal does not mean you can't drive just like being legal doesn't mean you can drive.
You don't know what driving instruction she had back in her native country or where she learned to drive, because as far as I understand it this wasn't the first time she drove.
This story isn't tragic because an illegal killed 4 kids, it's tragic because somebody killed 4 kids. She being illegal is irrelevent here, unless you can point out with proof that illegal immigrants somehow are worse drivers than legal immigrants.
EDIT: Oh and how did you expect me to react to that guys post? Even if you don't agree with me you have to admit his post is completely retarded.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 03:57 PM
You don't know what driving instruction she had back in her native country or where she learned to drive, because as far as I understand it this wasn't the first time she drove.
First of all, I am about as un-American as you can get, because I am not even a fucking American, so you can throw that comment right out the window.
Second, the fact that we don't know her driving history is part of the problem. How come it is up to us to prove that she is a worse driver? It seems fair to me to say that if you DO NOT HAVE A DRIVERS LICENSE and are already breaking the law by illegally immigrating into a country, her judgment is questionable. She may have failed the immigration process, and in that case, should not be driving around in the country.
So, I am asking YOU to prove to US that the driving skills of illegal immigrants without a valid license is as safe as an individual with a license that is valid in America.
Nobody is debating that the real tragedy is children dying. Nobody is saying that an American couldn't have done it too. I am saying that it is more likely to happen if a person does not have a license. Therefore, if illegal immigrants were not in America, the chances of this happening would be reduced.
Please use arguments in which you have sequential logic in your posts. Otherwise, you are just spinning this in circles by picking and choosing the parts of people's comment you do not like and posting one paragraph responses. You are not allowing us to see your reasoning behind your opinion. I fully believe you may have a point, but I cannot see it at this point.
Edit: Oh, and BTW, sarcasm is just as poor and immature of an argument tool as what you are claiming I am doing is. You may want to stop that if you are going to criticize other peoples' posts.
viepr149
02-24-2008, 03:59 PM
Lets put her in a trebuchet and send that bitch back to Mexico.
lol i actually pictured that.
Nobody is debating that the real tragedy is children dying. Nobody is saying that an American couldn't have done it too. I am saying that it is more likely to happen if a person does not have a license. Therefore, if illegal immigrants were not in America, the chances of this happening would be reduced.
That would be true if illegals could get licenses without getting deported, as they can't, you can't make that guess.
And my point is that I find it horrible that people are trying to make it a political issue out of a tragedy that could have happened to anybody and it does happen all the time unfortunetly, but it just so happened that this time it was an illegal immigrant.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 04:10 PM
That would be true if illegals could get licenses without getting deported, as they can't, you can't make that guess.
And my point is that I find it horrible that people are trying to make it a political issue out of a tragedy that could have happened to anybody and it does happen all the time unfortunetly, but it just so happened that this time it was an illegal immigrant.
I respect that opinion.
I guess what is making people so mad is that illegal immigration is a serious concern to some people. It just adds fuel to their fire when on top of all of their concerns with it, it ends up ultimately resulting in the death of children. I know it is a far stretch to say that illegal immigration caused this directly, but in a sense, it kind of did.
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 04:11 PM
It is unknow what her driving skills are. She could very well have had a drivers license back in Mexico or whereever she was from and the only reason she didn't have one now was because she was illegal. So just because she didn't have a license doesn't mean she couldn't drive.
That qualifies her to drive the roads in Mexico, not America. Yes, because she didn't have a license does mean she cannot drive. Driving isn't a right, it's a privilege, there's a reason it's against the law to drive without a license.
That said ... how many accidents are caused by people that aren't illegals ?Lets say 95% but it's probably more so clearly being illegal has nothing to do with driving skills. Being an illegal does not mean you can't drive just like being legal doesn't mean you can drive.
She didn't apply for a license due to her being here illegally. She broke the law by coming here illegally, she broke the law by operating a vehicle without a license, her disregard for the law cost four kids their lives.
You don't know what driving instruction she had back in her native country or where she learned to drive, because as far as I understand it this wasn't the first time she drove.
Again, this isn't her native country. She wants to drive here, get a license here, we've been over why she didn't want to do that.
This story isn't tragic because an illegal killed 4 kids, it's tragic because somebody killed 4 kids. She being illegal is irrelevent here, unless you can point out with proof that illegal immigrants somehow are worse drivers than legal immigrants.
It's tragic because had she not come here illegally these kids would be alive. You can cease with the asinine notion that people are saying natural born citizens are better drivers. She didn't have the right to be operating a vehicle in the first place. It's really not a hard concept to understand.
It's tragic because had she not come here illegally these kids would be alive.
You read yet you don't understand.
What if she was legal and did have a license? Would those kids still be alive? No they wouldn't, she'd still have run over them. It wouldn't have saved anybody.
You read yet you don't understand.
What if she was legal and did have a license? Would those kids still be alive? No they wouldn't, she'd still have run over them. It wouldn't have saved anybody.
No, they wouldn't. But if she had taken a driver's test HERE she would be more knowledgeable and aware of traffic laws here.
This entire argument is beside the point, she broke two laws: being here illegally, and then the traffic violation + vehicular homicide.
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 04:25 PM
You read yet you don't understand.
What if she was legal and did have a license? Would those kids still be alive? No they wouldn't, she'd still have run over them. It wouldn't have saved anybody.
The point is you're arguing "what if"s and we're arguing facts.
She wasn't legal and she didn't get a driver's license, that's of her own doing. You make it sound as if someone, other than her own disregard for the law, is what prevented her from going about becoming a legal citizen and getting a driver's license.
Of course they're going to make a big deal out of four children losing their lives to someone that shouldn't have been in this country let alone on the road in the first place.
No, they wouldn't. But if she had taken a driver's test HERE she would be more knowledgeable and aware of traffic laws here.
This entire argument is beside the point, she broke two laws: being here illegally, and then the traffic violation + vehicular homicide.
Nobody is debating that, but it seems some people think the first one is worse than the homicide.
Of course they're going to make a big deal out of four children losing their lives to someone that shouldn't have been in this country let alone on the road in the first place.
Why? Why is this worse than 4 kids losing their life to somebody that is legal?
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 04:30 PM
Why? Why is this worse than 4 kids losing their life to somebody that is legal?
Because she shouldn't have been here to take their lives. Honestly, is it that hard to grasp? This insane notion that these kids would be dead regardless of if this woman was here or not is completely absurd.
Because she shouldn't have been here to take their lives. Honestly, is it that hard to grasp? This insane notion that these kids would be dead regardless of if this woman was here or not is completely absurd.
It's not that if she was there or not is if she was legal or not. If she was an legal immigrant would it have made any fucking difference? NO!
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 04:36 PM
It's not that if she was there or not is if she was legal or not. If she was an legal immigrant would it have made any fucking difference? NO!
Yes, it is if she was there or not. She shouldn't have been in the country due to her status of being illegal. She shouldn't have been on the roads due to her status of being illegal. A legal citizen with a driver's license didn't break any of the laws this woman did, so of course it's going to be brought up.
That would be true if illegals could get licenses without getting deported, as they can't, you can't make that guess.
We can make that guess, actually, because that's how it should be. Driving in this country should be reserved for those here legally that prove themselves competent and law-abiding enough to do so.
And my point is that I find it horrible that people are trying to make it a political issue out of a tragedy that could have happened to anybody and it does happen all the time unfortunetly, but it just so happened that this time it was an illegal immigrant.
The fact that an illegal immigrant was involved automatically makes this both a tragedy and a matter for political debate. That's unfortunate, but the fact of the matter. Had it simply been a US citizen demonstrating negligence while driving, they'd pay the normal price for the crime committed. But since this is someone expressing a true, deep-rooted disregard for the law by being here illegally, driving illegally, and then add that their disregard for the law cost 4 people their lives, and we have a political issue in which we need to address how to prevent people with such extreme disregard for our law from being able to be here to disregard it in the first place.
Keeping people who have a disregard for our laws from entering our country logically reduces the crime rates of our country and increases the safety for everyone else in the country.
Yes, it is if she was there or not. She shouldn't have been in the country due to her status of being illegal. She shouldn't have been on the roads due to her status of being illegal. A legal citizen with a driver's license didn't break any of the laws this woman did, so of course it's going to be brought up.
Are you dense or something? Say that she did come legally and she did obtain her driver license and yet she still ran over those kids. Would that have been more or less tragic?
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 04:44 PM
Are you dense or something? Say that she did come legally and she did obtain her driver license and yet she still ran over those kids. Would that have been more or less tragic?
Less. The same way someone dying in a car accident is less tragic than someone dying in a car accident due to a drunk driver. It's about disregarding law and costing others' their lives due to it. For some odd reason you can't comprehend that, despite everyone spelling it out for you.
Less. The same way someone dying in a car accident is less tragic than someone dying in a car accident due to a drunk driver. It's about disregarding law and costing others' their lives due to it. For some odd reason you can't comprehend that, despite everyone spelling it out for you.
Good to see that you put value on life depending on how somebody dies.
Now I understand why we can't see eye to eye, you have a completely fucked up morale code.
I'll stop posting now since we solved this mystery.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 05:07 PM
Good to see that you put value on life depending on how somebody dies.
Now I understand why we can't see eye to eye, you have a completely fucked up morale code.
I'll stop posting now since we solved this mystery.
Okay, let's play that angle then. Do you think an 80 year old man who decides to end his own life peacefully on his own terms due to excessive pain by stopping his medication is just as tragic as a freak accident where a baby dies in say, a house fire?
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 05:08 PM
Okay, let's play that angle then. Do you think an 80 year old man who decides to end his own life peacefully on his own terms due to excessive pain by stopping his medication is just as tragic as a freak accident where a baby dies in say, a house fire?
Of course he doesn't, that's just his way of bowing out of the debate.
Okay, let's play that angle then. Do you think an 80 year old man who decides to end his own life peacefully on his own terms due to excessive pain by stopping his medication is just as tragic as a freak accident where a baby dies in say, a house fire?
That wasn't the question was it? It was if 4 kids die ran over by a legal or illegal and if one is more or less tragic than another.
Your example is disingenuous, if you want to make a valid comparison put 2 80 year old men, one dying in the conditions you described and another dying hit by a car. Both would be just as tragic.
Of course he doesn't, that's just his way of bowing out of the debate.
Clearly you with your superior ethical standards got the best of me.
Zantutsuken
02-24-2008, 05:12 PM
That wasn't the question was it? It was if 4 kids die ran over by a legal or illegal and if one is more or less tragic than another.
Your example is disingenuous, if you want to make a valid comparison put 2 80 year old men, one dying in the conditions you described and another dying hit by a car. Both would be just as tragic.
One is preventable, the other isn't. That's the whole point of the argument, a point you keep leaving out because you can't counter it.
Mouland
02-24-2008, 05:16 PM
That wasn't the question was it? It was if 4 kids die ran over by a legal or illegal and if one is more or less tragic than another.
Your example is disingenuous, if you want to make a valid comparison put 2 80 year old men, one dying in the conditions you described and another dying hit by a car. Both would be just as tragic.
Point taken, but I think this is an area where we fundamentally disagree. I do not find the old man dying on his own terms tregic at all, whereas, his life being taken by another's reckless driving I find tragic.
Point taken, but I think this is an area where we fundamentally disagree. I do not find the old man dying on his own terms tregic at all, whereas, his life being taken by another's reckless driving I find tragic.
Well than we agree to disagree.
Sketcher
02-24-2008, 07:07 PM
Can you guys stop with the "if she were legal" and the "how many are killed my American drivers" crap already. Yeah, there are plenty of people who are killed in traffic accidents by Americans. but the difference is that when that happens, it's only a tragedy. However, when this kind of thing happens, it's much more than a tragedy - it's a crime. And one that could have been prevented. That bitch should never have been on that road. That bitch should never have been driving that car and that bitch should never have been in this country in the first place.
How many Americans have to be killed by illegals before we finally do something?
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 07:19 PM
damn I made this thread last night and im sick and alseep for 14 hours and this thread is already at 5 pages intresting.
viepr149
02-24-2008, 07:23 PM
Are you dense or something? Say that she did come legally and she did obtain her driver license and yet she still ran over those kids. Would that have been more or less tragic?
so your defending some illegal immigrant saying that the kids would die regardless. I think your honestly a fucking moron. She shouldn't have been in this country because shes an illegal immigrant. She shouldn't be driving, she has no right to be here, tell her to go back to fucking Mexico instead of killing innocent people. Fucking dumb bitch.
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 08:44 PM
^^ I agree
Dayve
02-24-2008, 09:17 PM
I fail to see what her being an illegal immigrant has to do with anything. Try her for her crime, which was neglect of a stop sign which resulted in the deaths of 4 people, then add whatever she gets for being there illegally on top of it, although i think that's just deportation, yes? Legal US citizen or not, she still would have run the stop sign and still would have killed the 4 people.
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-24-2008, 09:32 PM
she will probbly be in prsion for the rest of her life
Are fucking kidding me? Her illegal status is EXACTLY what doomed those kids. She should not have even been behind the wheel of that car, much less be anywhere near those kids. Stop saying "if she were legal". That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, she was illegal. The fact is, she should not have been there. The fact is, if she hadn't broken the law and came here illegally, those kids would still be alive. When innocent lives are ended by someone who is not even allowed in this country, and yet is here, their status has EVERYTHING to do with it.
You seem to have some sort of idea that if she were here legally, she would never have had an accident. Her legal status would not have made her immune to having an accident. Her status has absolutely zero to do with the accident, her breaking traffic laws does.
so your defending some illegal immigrant saying that the kids would die regardless. I think your honestly a fucking moron. She shouldn't have been in this country because shes an illegal immigrant. She shouldn't be driving, she has no right to be here, tell her to go back to fucking Mexico instead of killing innocent people. Fucking dumb bitch.
Nobody is saying she should have been in the country illegally. People are saying she would have killed them whether she was legally here or not. Her path was already set.
hellraiser_427
02-24-2008, 10:53 PM
You seem to have some sort of idea that if she were here legally, she would never have had an accident. Her legal status would not have made her immune to having an accident. Her status has absolutely zero to do with the accident, her breaking traffic laws does.
And YOU seem to have some sort of idea that if she wasn't here illegally, she would be here legally, which she WOULDN'T. Obviously, if she had the means or the ability to be here legally, she would take advantage of it. But she doesn't. She came here illegally, and if she WASN'T here illegally, she wouldn't be here at all. This is what everyone has been trying to tell you, yet you seem to have some sort of logic in your head that says, "Oh, if she isn't here illegally, she must be here legally!" There's a whole other option that you have failed to acknowledge, which is exactly what everyone has been bringing up: that she wouldn't be in the country if our borders were in check.
And YOU seem to have some sort of idea that if she wasn't here illegally, she would be here legally, which she WOULDN'T. Obviously, if she had the means or the ability to be here legally, she would take advantage of it. But she doesn't. She came here illegally, and if she WASN'T here illegally, she wouldn't be here at all. This is what everyone has been trying to tell you, yet you seem to have some sort of logic in your head that says, "Oh, if she isn't here illegally, she must be here legally!" There's a whole other option that you have failed to acknowledge, which is exactly what everyone has been bringing up: that she wouldn't be in the country if our borders were in check.
I'm well aware that it breaks down into two categories, being here and not being here through the actions of our government. However, and this is key to remember, the incompetence of our government to prevent her from being here is not really relevant to the matter. Why, you might ask? It's wishful thinking. It's like hoping and holding your breath for Santa Claus to come take care of the problem. I have no illusions that our government will do anything to stem the tide in any meaningful way.
So that leads us to her being here, which breaks down to legally or illegally. And either way, she would have been capable of doing the exact same thing.
That, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. Some people are looking to the government and others aren't. I happen to be one of the ones who isn't.
hellraiser_427
02-24-2008, 11:07 PM
I'm well aware that it breaks down into two categories, being here and not being here through the actions of our government. However, and this is key to remember, the incompetence of our government to prevent her from being here is not really relevant to the matter. Why, you might ask? It's wishful thinking. It's like hoping and holding your breath for Santa Claus to come take care of the problem. I have no illusions that our government will do anything to stem the tide in any meaningful way.
So that leads us to her being here, which breaks down to legally or illegally. And either way, she would have been capable of doing the exact same thing.
That, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. Some people are looking to the government and others aren't. I happen to be one of the ones who isn't.
That's the point of this debate. This entire argument is moot, because the bitch is in our country and the 4 kids are dead. Nothing we can do about that fact. BUT the whole argument stems from the fact that (at least in my mind) that if our borders were closed, or at least CONTROLLED, this cunt wouldn't be in our country, wouldn't be behind the wheel, and these 4 kids would still be alive.
And its clear that people die from car accidents every day. Obviously more people die from accidents with legal citizens, but that's not the point; there's no real source for debate there (unless one were to argue that the standards for driving need to be raised which, if you ask me, they do). The point is that if our country weren't so pathetically easy to get into, these 4 kids would still be alive.
I'm well aware that it breaks down into two categories, being here and not being here through the actions of our government. However, and this is key to remember, the incompetence of our government to prevent her from being here is not really relevant to the matter. Why, you might ask? It's wishful thinking. It's like hoping and holding your breath for Santa Claus to come take care of the problem. I have no illusions that our government will do anything to stem the tide in any meaningful way.
So that leads us to her being here, which breaks down to legally or illegally. And either way, she would have been capable of doing the exact same thing.
That, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. Some people are looking to the government and others aren't. I happen to be one of the ones who isn't.
Your logic sucks. Santa doesn't exist. Congress does, and it makes perfect sense to be pissed off at them for not doing things to prevent this type of thing.
You have a bad case of learned helplessness: the only thing you know is the current state, so the possibilities of other states of being seem unobtainable. But the truth is the only way to obtain them is through being pissed off and nagging at the people with the ability to change things until the change them.
If you want to sit there and just let shit like this happen without being upset at those with the power to stop it, then you're useless and might as well not exist. Fucking worker drone and nothing more, inconsequential to the grand scheme of things.
You're also contributing to the other great problem with our society: no one willing to take responsibility for their actions or hold others accountable for theirs.
Your logic sucks. Santa doesn't exist. Congress does, and it makes perfect sense to be pissed off at them for not doing things to prevent this type of thing.
Holding out for this Congress to do anything meaningful is like wishing for Santa Claus to appear. Now is it clear to you?
You have a bad case of learned helplessness: the only thing you know is the current state, so the possibilities of other states of being seem unobtainable. But the truth is the only way to obtain them is through being pissed off and nagging at the people with the ability to change things until the change them.
If you want to sit there and just let shit like this happen without being upset at those with the power to stop it, then you're useless and might as well not exist. Fucking worker drone and nothing more, inconsequential to the grand scheme of things.
You're also contributing to the other great problem with our society: no one willing to take responsibility for their actions or hold others accountable for theirs.
There's no need to be nasty because I hold a different opinion. And do feel free to show me where I don't hold her accountable. Nowhere have I said she is not responsible. I'm simply facing the reality that our government is too stupid to get it's act together.
Holding out for this Congress to do anything meaningful is like wishing for Santa Claus to appear. Now is it clear to you?
No, because it's still learned helplessness. You're basically saying it's ok to illegally immigrate simply because no one's currently doing anything to stop it and you're not willing to add to the voice to speak out to try and light the spark under congress' ass.
There's no need to be nasty because I hold a different opinion. And do feel free to show me where I don't hold her accountable. Nowhere have I said she is not responsible. I'm simply facing the reality that our government is too stupid to get it's act together.
I'm not talking about her, obviously she's guilty. But the root problem that allowed this specific situation to occur is illegal immigration, and it is something that hurts us in many other more short term and long term ways. So this situation is just one more item in a long reason to do something about it.
Those responsible? Congress. Are they doing their job with this? No. And you're saying to just accept that instead of holding them accountable for not doing their job and helping maintain our nation's sovereignty.
So yeah, I'm going to be nasty. Their apathy adds to a problem that has cost the lives of children and now you're trying to validate their apathy as "that's just congress...so why get upset with the way things are, that's just how they are" and that's bullshit and irresponsible.
No, because it's still learned helplessness. You're basically saying it's ok to illegally immigrate simply because no one's currently doing anything to stop it and you're not willing to add to the voice to speak out to try and light the spark under congress' ass.
I'm not talking about her, obviously she's guilty. But the root problem that allowed this specific situation to occur is illegal immigration, and it is something that hurts us in many other more short term and long term ways. So this situation is just one more item in a long reason to do something about it.
Those responsible? Congress. Are they doing their job with this? No. And you're saying to just accept that instead of holding them accountable for not doing their job and helping maintain our nation's sovereignty.
So yeah, I'm going to be nasty. Their apathy adds to a problem that has cost the lives of children and now you're trying to validate their apathy as "that's just congress...so why get upset with the way things are, that's just how they are" and that's bullshit and irresponsible.
Outside of election time, there is no way to get Congress to act on a matter. That's not apathy, that's reality. Social Security, immigration, healthcare? Nothing will get fixed because our government is broken. You call it irresponsible of me, but I call it recognizing how our system has failed us.
droogsteve
02-25-2008, 01:12 AM
I fail to see what her being an illegal immigrant has to do with anything. Try her for her crime, which was neglect of a stop sign which resulted in the deaths of 4 people, then add whatever she gets for being there illegally on top of it, although i think that's just deportation, yes? Legal US citizen or not, she still would have run the stop sign and still would have killed the 4 people.
You're missing the point.
Example: Let's say that I have a revoked driver's license. I decide to drive anyway, and I get in an accident and kill four people. I'm not drunk, I wasn't reckless, but it doesn't matter. Those people are dead because I drove illegally. I'm guilty of vehicular manslaughter because I shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.
Yes, if I had a license those people would still be dead. Yes, if a licensed driver hit them they'd still be dead and it wouldn't be a crime. That's not the point. Those people are dead because I SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ON THE ROAD DRIVING. Yes, it was an accident, but if I'd obeyed the law, they'd still be alive. And I should be held accountable. And you can bet your ass that I would be.
Same here. If she wasn't here illegally, those kids would be alive. It's her fault that they're dead. Those children are in their graves because we didn't secure our border. Period.
You're missing the point.
Example: Let's say that I have a revoked driver's license. I decide to drive anyway, and I get in an accident and kill four people. I'm not drunk, I wasn't reckless, but it doesn't matter. Those people are dead because I drove illegally. I'm guilty of vehicular manslaughter because I shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.
Yes, if I had a license those people would still be dead. Yes, if a licensed driver hit them they'd still be dead and it wouldn't be a crime. That's not the point. Those people are dead because I SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ON THE ROAD DRIVING. Yes, it was an accident, but if I'd obeyed the law, they'd still be alive. And I should be held accountable. And you can bet your ass that I would be.
Same here. If she wasn't here illegally, those kids would be alive. It's her fault that they're dead. Those children are in their graves because we didn't secure our border. Period.
That's just it, though, she could have done the exact same thing if she was a legal resident. Her legal status had nothing to do with the accident, it was her running the stop sign that did it.
Zantutsuken
02-25-2008, 02:01 AM
That's just it, though, she could have done the exact same thing if she was a legal resident. Her legal status had nothing to do with the accident, it was her running the stop sign that did it.
And if she wasn't in the country to run the stop sign...
That's the point, she shouldn't have had the opportunity.
dazevas
02-25-2008, 02:25 AM
jsut becuase shes illegal dont make a difference, how many asshole american drunks kill people driving drunk but then a woman makes a mistake and causes a tragic accident people go an categorize her a murderer which i think is bullshit. accidents happen and im sure she cant even live with herself shes a young woman that by an accident her life has gone to shit.
terror6o4
02-25-2008, 02:38 AM
why does it bother people that illegals are coming here for a better life.......it doesnt matter how cliche it sounds but it is true that illegals do the work that others dont want. california is a prime example of this, i rarely see people other than "illegals" doing the low paying jobs and iam talking the lowest of the low.
illegals boost the economy, who else is going to do the job for half the price.
theres one thing i dont understand......some of your ancestors crossed states lets say from like alabama to california in search for better job/life, but because there was no fuckin border its ok for them to cross, but not for "illegals" because there from another country.
fuck american history books.........there full of shit, its all from a european perspective. so much other important figures in history that you will never hear about. the vietnam war had thousands of latinos/hispanics and even blacks, but you rarely hear about that shit in the history books.
iam happy to see that universities are offering african/chicano studies classes, because iam tired of this traditional american bullshit history. for those who are interested in stuff like this i recommend these classes, it will open your eyes
dazevas
02-25-2008, 02:49 AM
why does it bother people that illegals are coming here for a better life.......it doesnt matter how cliche it sounds but it is true that illegals do the work that others dont want. california is a prime example of this, i rarely see people other than "illegals" doing the low paying jobs and iam talking the lowest of the low.
illegals boost the economy, who else is going to do the job for half the price.
theres one thing i dont understand......some of your ancestors crossed states lets say from like alabama to california in search for better job/life, but because there was no fuckin border its ok for them to cross, but not for "illegals" because there from another country.
fuck american history books.........there full of shit, its all from a european perspective. so much other important figures in history that you will never hear about. the vietnam war had thousands of latinos/hispanics and even blacks, but you rarely hear about that shit in the history books.
iam happy to see that universities are offering african/chicano studies classes, because iam tired of this traditional american bullshit history. for those who are interested in stuff like this i recommend these classes, it will open your eyes
im glad some people still have a brain
That's just it, though, she could have done the exact same thing if she was a legal resident. Her legal status had nothing to do with the accident, it was her running the stop sign that did it.
It was her running the border that put her in the town that she ran the stop sign in.
why does it bother people that illegals are coming here for a better life.......it doesnt matter how cliche it sounds but it is true that illegals do the work that others dont want. california is a prime example of this, i rarely see people other than "illegals" doing the low paying jobs and iam talking the lowest of the low.
illegals boost the economy, who else is going to do the job for half the price.
theres one thing i dont understand......some of your ancestors crossed states lets say from like alabama to california in search for better job/life, but because there was no fuckin border its ok for them to cross, but not for "illegals" because there from another country.
fuck american history books.........there full of shit, its all from a european perspective. so much other important figures in history that you will never hear about. the vietnam war had thousands of latinos/hispanics and even blacks, but you rarely hear about that shit in the history books.
iam happy to see that universities are offering african/chicano studies classes, because iam tired of this traditional american bullshit history. for those who are interested in stuff like this i recommend these classes, it will open your eyes
I think it's safe to say very few people object to people immigrating to the United States to improve their lives. The issue, however, is with people who bypass the immigration process and walk/swim/ride over the border in complete disregard to the laws of the country they want to be a part of and those people who went down the path to *legal* citizenship.
It was her running the border that put her in the town that she ran the stop sign in.
I understand what you're saying, but if she had gone the legal route, she could have done the exact same thing. So the responsibility lies 100% on her for breaking the traffic laws, which is a seperate issue from her entering the country illegally.
terror6o4
02-25-2008, 03:30 AM
I think it's safe to say very few people object to people immigrating to the United States to improve their lives. The issue, however, is with people who bypass the immigration process and walk/swim/ride over the border in complete disregard to the laws of the country they want to be a part of and those people who went down the path to *legal* citizenship.
its truth some people go through the legal process and others dont. but it takes time and lots of it.........but i dont see this as an issue. (unless you can further elaborate on why it is)
(this is not intended to you meil, just to everyone in general) just because you see these articles about illegals killing american citizens, you people swear like it doesnt happen the other way around also. its because the media focuses only on this, and what this does is create a bad image, by stereotyping illegals as criminals.
But you know why people focus on these types of articles because if it were the other way around "who cares, right?. its only an illegal getting killed, they dont mean anything" but no if its an american getting killed that shit gets front page
I understand what you're saying, but if she had gone the legal route, she could have done the exact same thing. So the responsibility lies 100% on her for breaking the traffic laws, which is a seperate issue from her entering the country illegally.
If that bus had been 5 minutes earlier...
If she had been 5 minutes later...
If she had stepped on the brake on time...
If, if, if, if, if...
The bottom line here is the root cause of her being in position to commit this crime was the original crime she committed in the US: being here illegally. Given what did transpire instead of what could have happened in "what if" situations, her being here illegally led sequentially to her violating the traffic law and killing for kids.
its truth some people go through the legal process and others dont. but it takes time and lots of it.........but i dont see this as an issue. (unless you can further elaborate on why it is)
(this is not intended to you meil, just to everyone in general) just because you see these articles about illegals killing american citizens, you people swear like it doesnt happen the other way around also. its because the media focuses only on this, and what this does is create a bad image, by stereotyping illegals as criminals.
But you know why people focus on these types of articles because if it were the other way around "who cares, right?. its only an illegal getting killed, they dont mean anything" but no if its an american getting killed that shit gets front page
There's a cost to filing the paperwork involved for legal entry into the country, so that's a barrier. Also, because of the huge number of people wanting to come to the U.S., the time that goes by due to a backlog can take a while. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it can go into the months.
And while I'm sure people who come here illegally are victimized, and I don't like the idea of anyone being a victim, the idea that an illegal immigrant perpetrates a crime against a legal citizen is almost insult to injury. First they violated our borders in complete disregard to the rule of law, but they also hurt someone, obviously more disregard for our laws.
If that bus had been 5 minutes earlier...
If she had been 5 minutes later...
If she had stepped on the brake on time...
If, if, if, if, if...
The bottom line here is the root cause of her being in position to commit this crime was the original crime she committed in the US: being here illegally. Given what did transpire instead of what could have happened in "what if" situations, her being here illegally led sequentially to her violating the traffic law and killing for kids.
The whole issue, really, is about if, if, if. If she had been legal, if she had never come. But her being here illegally had nothing to do with it. As I said before and I shall repeat it, she could have had every piece of paper necessary and been a legal citizen and she could have ran the stop sign all the same. So it was her coming here, period, that led to the deaths, not whether she was legal or not.
terror6o4
02-25-2008, 03:50 AM
There's a cost to filing the paperwork involved for legal entry into the country, so that's a barrier. Also, because of the huge number of people wanting to come to the U.S., the time that goes by due to a backlog can take a while. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it can go into the months.
And while I'm sure people who come here illegally are victimized, and I don't like the idea of anyone being a victim, the idea that an illegal immigrant perpetrates a crime against a legal citizen is almost insult to injury. First they violated our borders in complete disregard to the rule of law, but they also hurt someone, obviously more disregard for our laws.
The whole issue, really, is about if, if, if. If she had been legal, if she had never come. But her being here illegally had nothing to do with it. As I said before and I shall repeat it, she could have had every piece of paper necessary and been a legal citizen and she could have ran the stop sign all the same. So it was her coming here, period, that led to the deaths, not whether she was legal or not.
i dont know the exact wait for legalization process......but i know damn well it aint months, try years.
i dont know exactly what the process is for immigrants to come to america from mexico, but i know some people that have come in illegally and they said they had to pay a couple grand just to get smuggled in so im pretty sure if there was an easy way to come here legally they'd have done it.
on a side issue... immigrants do cause a lotta accidents. no offense intended but i get stuck behind u nigs all the fucking time and you guys do some crazy shit.
terror6o4
02-25-2008, 03:59 AM
iam not gonna lie........immigrants do commit crimes, but people cant make such radical statements by saying that there all troublemakers, its like saying all whites are racist
so what are you trying to say all whites arent racist?
i dont know the exact wait for legalization process......but i know damn well it aint months, try years.
Heh, I was actually trying to be a bit conservative since I didn't know the exact time involved. :p
Heh, I was actually trying to be a bit conservative since I didn't know the exact time involved. :p
Well I don't know what it is for the USA, but I do know that for Australia it's 2 years. So I think it's safe to say it's the same or close to for the USA.
Sketcher
02-25-2008, 10:11 AM
That's just it, though, she could have done the exact same thing if she was a legal resident. Her legal status had nothing to do with the accident, it was her running the stop sign that did it.
If she had gone the legal route, she probably wouldn't even be in the country yet. It's a pretty long process. Her illegal status is what killed those kids.
There's a cost to filing the paperwork involved for legal entry into the country, so that's a barrier. Also, because of the huge number of people wanting to come to the U.S., the time that goes by due to a backlog can take a while. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it can go into the months.
And while I'm sure people who come here illegally are victimized, and I don't like the idea of anyone being a victim, the idea that an illegal immigrant perpetrates a crime against a legal citizen is almost insult to injury. First they violated our borders in complete disregard to the rule of law, but they also hurt someone, obviously more disregard for our laws.
The whole issue, really, is about if, if, if. If she had been legal, if she had never come. But her being here illegally had nothing to do with it. As I said before and I shall repeat it, she could have had every piece of paper necessary and been a legal citizen and she could have ran the stop sign all the same. So it was her coming here, period, that led to the deaths, not whether she was legal or not.
Buuuuuuuuuuuut she wasn't legal yet was still here. That's what THIS situation entails, that's something that cannot be ignored in this situation. It has everything to do with it. It was the original crime committed and it led directly to this next crime.
painfulogic
02-25-2008, 04:45 PM
We should execute her and deport her at the same time!
If only we could get rid of the illegals, no one would ever run stop signs...
xXSpawnXx
02-25-2008, 07:07 PM
The average illegal alien from Mexico has only a 7th-8th grade education...the average American teenager earns their drivers license in high school 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade...see the correlation?
Buuuuuuuuuuuut she wasn't legal yet was still here. That's what THIS situation entails, that's something that cannot be ignored in this situation. It has everything to do with it. It was the original crime committed and it led directly to this next crime.
Let me get this straight: you believe if she had been here legally, there's no way she could have done the exact same thing?
terror6o4
02-25-2008, 07:22 PM
We should execute her and deport her at the same time!
If only we could get rid of the illegals, no one would ever run stop signs...
iam sure illegals cause more car accidents than teenage drivers............
Zantutsuken
02-25-2008, 07:53 PM
Let me get this straight: you believe if she had been here legally, there's no way she could have done the exact same thing?
I assume he believes that, had she not have been here due to better border control/immigration policies, she wouldn't have taken the lives of four children.
We'll never know if she'd have done the exact same thing if she had been legal, because she never cared enough for the law to become a legal citizen. :redface:
OMFG FORUM RAGE
02-25-2008, 08:41 PM
The average illegal alien from Mexico has only a 7th-8th grade education...the average American teenager earns their drivers license in high school 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade...see the correlation?
thats true
Sketcher
02-25-2008, 08:47 PM
The average illegal alien from Mexico has only a 7th-8th grade education...the average American teenager earns their drivers license in high school 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade...see the correlation?
9th and 10th graders are usually 14 and 15 years old. You have to be 16 to get a drivers license. But I see your point.
I assume he believes that, had she not have been here due to better border control/immigration policies, she wouldn't have taken the lives of four children.
We'll never know if she'd have done the exact same thing if she had been legal, because she never cared enough for the law to become a legal citizen. :redface:
You're both wrong: as it stands there were 3 possibilities. She was here illegally, she was here legally, or she wasn't here at all.
Being that she was here legally, and she did kill 4 people, that is a reality, not a probability, but for the sake of argument, we'll count it as a 33% chance of what could have happened.
Had she been here legally, she might have lived somewhere else, might have not killed anyone. But since you say she would have done the same thing regardless of how she got here, that's another 33% she would have killed people, bringing the total to 66%.
But had she not been here (which would have been due to a secure border) she would not have killed these kids.
So we have a 66% chance she would have killed versus a 33% chance she would not have.
Eliminate the possibility of her being here illegally by securing the border, and those kids would have had a better chance of surviving at 50%.
No, securing the border dos not solve all our problems, which I have stated several times in this thread already (you must not be reading if you haven't caught onto that yet) but it certainly would help reduce them.
Thanks for assuming and proving the old adage true instead of leaving it up to me to make asses out of you myself. Do yourselves a favor and don't ever put words in my mouth again.
czoom
02-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Fuck that sucks.
Zantutsuken
02-25-2008, 10:46 PM
Wrong. She entered illegally because, like the case with illegal immigration without intent to be malicious in general, she could not afford to do so legally.
Therefore, had we had a secure border and she was not able to enter illegally, and she wouldn't have entered legally either, she wouldn't have been here at all, and those 4 kids would still be alive.
Sounds rather similar to:
I assume he believes that, had she not have been here due to better border control/immigration policies, she wouldn't have taken the lives of four children.
I must be missing something. I put your own words in your mouth?
No, securing the border dos not solve all our problems, which I have stated several times in this thread already (you must not be reading if you haven't caught onto that yet) but it certainly would help reduce them.
Thanks for assuming and proving the old adage true instead of leaving it up to me to make asses out of you myself. Do yourselves a favor and don't ever put words in my mouth again.
By all means, point out where I stated that you said securing the border solves all our problems. I'd appreciate the same courtesy I've given you by showing you where my assumption originated from.
Now I apologize for unintentionally "putting words in your mouth", seeing as how you just put some in mine I suppose it's an easy mistake to make.
You're both wrong: as it stands there were 3 possibilities. She was here illegally, she was here legally, or she wasn't here at all.
Being that she was here legally, and she did kill 4 people, that is a reality, not a probability, but for the sake of argument, we'll count it as a 33% chance of what could have happened.
Had she been here legally, she might have lived somewhere else, might have not killed anyone. But since you say she would have done the same thing regardless of how she got here, that's another 33% she would have killed people, bringing the total to 66%.
But had she not been here (which would have been due to a secure border) she would not have killed these kids.
So we have a 66% chance she would have killed versus a 33% chance she would not have.
Eliminate the possibility of her being here illegally by securing the border, and those kids would have had a better chance of surviving at 50%.
No, securing the border dos not solve all our problems, which I have stated several times in this thread already (you must not be reading if you haven't caught onto that yet) but it certainly would help reduce them.
Thanks for assuming and proving the old adage true instead of leaving it up to me to make asses out of you myself. Do yourselves a favor and don't ever put words in my mouth again.
Considering you're the one stuck on her illegal status, it leads one to believe you think that if she had been here legally, the kids would not have died. For those in the bad seats, I shall repeat: her legal status had zero to do with her running the stop sign. And your percentages are off. Securing the border would account for 33% survivability, not more than 50%.
Considering you're the one stuck on her illegal status, it leads one to believe you think that if she had been here legally, the kids would not have died. For those in the bad seats, I shall repeat: her legal status had zero to do with her running the stop sign. And your percentages are off. Securing the border would account for 33% survivability, not more than 50%.
I'm stuck on here being here illegally, because that is the initial crime in a chain of events that led to this crime. Had that crime been prevented, this would not have happened.
Henkie
02-26-2008, 03:47 AM
All nice and dandy, but if some politician had suggested, in connection to traffic-deaths, "Let's solve this problem, let's deport all illegal aliens!" wouldn't you have called him mad? Although in this case her being her illegal predates her causing an accident, on a more abstract level, the two are as unconnected as puppies and cocaine. Her being her illegally in the US doesn't make her drive worse, does it?
All nice and dandy, but if some politician had suggested, in connection to traffic-deaths, "Let's solve this problem, let's deport all illegal aliens!" wouldn't you have called him mad? Although in this case her being her illegal predates her causing an accident, on a more abstract level, the two are as unconnected as puppies and cocaine. Her being her illegally in the US doesn't make her drive worse, does it?
it would be more like "let's eliminate the complications and problems caused by illegal immigrants and deport all illegal aliens!"
Read the thread Henkie: no one is suggesting that illegals cause all traffic deaths, we're suggesting that this particular case is one of many random problems caused, big and small, by illegal aliens that could be prevented if we had a secure border.
It is undeniably a slap in the face to the US in general that someone comes into this country illegally and winds up accidentally killing US citizens because we're too lazy to secure our own border.
The average illegal alien from Mexico has only a 7th-8th grade education...the average American teenager earns their drivers license in high school 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade...see the correlation?
Source? I really doubt this.
Henkie
02-26-2008, 12:59 PM
it would be more like "let's eliminate the complications and problems caused by illegal immigrants and deport all illegal aliens!"
Read the thread Henkie: no one is suggesting that illegals cause all traffic deaths, we're suggesting that this particular case is one of many random problems caused, big and small, by illegal aliens that could be prevented if we had a secure border.
It is undeniably a slap in the face to the US in general that someone comes into this country illegally and winds up accidentally killing US citizens because we're too lazy to secure our own border.
That sounds nice, but if you consider the disadvantages of having illegal aliens a legitimate reason to deport them (and not just the basic fact that they're illegal aliens), the reasoning is not complete untill you weigh the costs against the gains, and it's practically impossible to make that equation with any accuracy, since the basic fact of them being illegal aliens means that there is very little data available, for, for instance, deciding the economic gains of having illegal aliens around. For instance, if I've got a Mexican cleaning-lady working far below minimum wage, that's economically profitable to me, but how do you get structured data about wages paid to cleaning ladies? But if somebody did make a credible attempt at such an equation, I don't think the slightly increased chance of car-accidents plays much of a part.
chalupa
02-26-2008, 01:16 PM
That sounds nice, but if you consider the disadvantages of having illegal aliens a legitimate reason to deport them (and not just the basic fact that they're illegal aliens), the reasoning is not complete untill you weigh the costs against the gains, and it's practically impossible to make that equation with any accuracy, since the basic fact of them being illegal aliens means that there is very little data available, for, for instance, deciding the economic gains of having illegal aliens around. For instance, if I've got a Mexican cleaning-lady working far below minimum wage, that's economically profitable to me, but how do you get structured data about wages paid to cleaning ladies? But if somebody did make a credible attempt at such an equation, I don't think the slightly increased chance of car-accidents plays much of a part.
(Assume Henkie is american for this argument) If you have a mexican woman cleaning your house below rate, that means there's an american not holding that job. Does that american have another job? I don't know. Chances are if they were cleaning houses in the first place, they aren't going to just jump into some tech sector job. Let's say this person is unemployed.
While you pay your mexican, you are also having to pay taxes for unemployment and welfare. If you paid your american, THEY would demand a higher wage, but THEY would be paying unemployment and welfare, assuming they worked for a cleaning company, as opposed to on the black market. But the american is no longer on welfare, so the proportion of people that need to be supported can drop. It drops by a tiny amount, but it drops.
Multiply this by the MILLIONS of illegals here, and you got yourself a tangible problem.
Henkie
02-26-2008, 01:36 PM
(Assume Henkie is american for this argument) If you have a mexican woman cleaning your house below rate, that means there's an american not holding that job. Does that american have another job? I don't know. Chances are if they were cleaning houses in the first place, they aren't going to just jump into some tech sector job. Let's say this person is unemployed.
While you pay your mexican, you are also having to pay taxes for unemployment and welfare. If you paid your american, THEY would demand a higher wage, but THEY would be paying unemployment and welfare, assuming they worked for a cleaning company, as opposed to on the black market. But the american is no longer on welfare, so the proportion of people that need to be supported can drop. It drops by a tiny amount, but it drops.
Multiply this by the MILLIONS of illegals here, and you got yourself a tangible problem.
Well, this is the part where it gets complicated and becomes an economic story to which there is no definite answer either way. Because it's questionable if all mexican cleaning ladies would be replaced by significantly more expensive American ones, because a whole bunch of people wouldn't be able to afford it. So a big question is how much Americans are kept out of a job, if they'd have found another job or would've stayed home unemployed, but other parts of the equation include questions like, on what is the saved money spent (on American products, or is it spent on foreign products, does it create more jobs here) and what the illegal aliens spend it on. In the end only a few things can be said with certainty: there is a significant group of people working on prices below the minimum wage (but how big is the group and how much do they earn?), the effects of this are hardly one-sided and clear, and even worse, they're probably unknown. As such, you can't decide what to do with that group purely based on they're cost to society, but rather on general principles like "they're free humans and not our problem, let them do whatever they want", or "they're illegally here, let's deport them". Either way, this article doesn't add to the general decision that has to be made, or to a more accurate picture of the decision that can't be made.
I'm stuck on here being here illegally, because that is the initial crime in a chain of events that led to this crime. Had that crime been prevented, this would not have happened.
So at least we know where our opinions are diverging. You believe it led to the crime, whereas I believe she would have done the same thing if she had been legal.
It's progress. :)
You don't even need to go into the economics about it: it is ILLEGAL for them to be here, and this is just one of MANY cases where an ILLEGAL ALIEN is committing other CRIMES on top of just being here ILLEGALLY.
Others included blowing off minimum wage laws, union laws, tax evasion, identity fraud, etc. The list goes on. And here we have it going on to the point of US citizens that are not violating the law that are being killed because someone else is violating several laws.
Of course her violating these laws is not the only reason this could have happened, but it IS how it happened in this case. That cannot be ignored.
Once you factor the legality of something into the equation, all that talk of weighing pros versus cons go out the window. All that matters is that laws are being broken.
Henkie
02-26-2008, 05:52 PM
Is commiting a crime a good reason to deport someone (a US citizen)? No, right?
So her being illegal doesn't add anything to the story of her causing a carcrash, which is no better, or no worse because of her status.
Should illegal aliens be allowed to stay if they behave properly? No, right?
So do her actions add anything to the argument for or against her staying? No.
She is illegal and she shouldn't be allowed to stay. We know that and it's not worth it's own topic. People died in a carcrash, which is sad, but so common it's not worth it's own topic either. The two have nothing to do with eachother, so the combination of the two is not worth it's own topic either.
Is commiting a crime a good reason to deport someone (a US citizen)? No, right?
So her being illegal doesn't add anything to the story of her causing a carcrash, which is no better, or no worse because of her status.
Should illegal aliens be allowed to stay if they behave properly? No, right?
So do her actions add anything to the argument for or against her staying? No.
She is illegal and she shouldn't be allowed to stay. We know that and it's not worth it's own topic. People died in a carcrash, which is sad, but so common it's not worth it's own topic either. The two have nothing to do with eachother, so the combination of the two is not worth it's own topic either.
But she's not a US citizen, so therefore, it IS a good reason to deport her. We caught someone not supposed to be here, let's get them the fuck out, and the fact that illegals are inflating our other crime statistics is a damn good argument for securing the border.
WEtakinOVER
02-26-2008, 06:10 PM
i fucking hate illegals and some legals if u know what i mean! WP
Is commiting a crime a good reason to deport someone (a US citizen)? No, right?
So her being illegal doesn't add anything to the story of her causing a carcrash, which is no better, or no worse because of her status.
Should illegal aliens be allowed to stay if they behave properly? No, right?
So do her actions add anything to the argument for or against her staying? No.
She is illegal and she shouldn't be allowed to stay. We know that and it's not worth it's own topic. People died in a carcrash, which is sad, but so common it's not worth it's own topic either. The two have nothing to do with eachother, so the combination of the two is not worth it's own topic either.
I think the intent of this thread was to show what we can expect if the next president does not make the illegal immigration problem more stringent.
hellraiser_427
02-26-2008, 09:52 PM
MelL, what TFS is trying to say (and I as well) is this: no one is refuting the fact that had she been here legally, there is just as much of a chance she would have killed those kids. Her legal status isn't what caused the accident, and no one is claiming it is. What we're trying to say is why would she be here illegally in the first place? Because she doesn't have the means to come here legally. So it's not a matter of, "Oh well if she wasn't here illegally, she would be here legally!" It's, "She's either here illegally or not here at all." Could she come into the country legally and end up killing someone else? Absolutely. But we'll never know that. What we DO know is that if she weren't here illegally, she wouldn't be in the country. That's what we're trying to say, and the semantics can be heavily argued because everything in this is hypothetical.
And now, regarding this post:
why does it bother people that illegals are coming here for a better life.......
It bothers me because it's fucking illegal. Being in this country is a privilege, not a right. You want to be here, do it the legal way like so many immigrant families (including my own) have done. The fact that they want to make a better life for themselves is noble, but that doesn't change the fact that the means by which it's done are wrong. If someone's life is constantly being fucked by a domineering parent, is murder justifiable because they are trying to make their own life better? No.
it doesnt matter how cliche it sounds but it is true that illegals do the work that others dont want. california is a prime example of this, i rarely see people other than "illegals" doing the low paying jobs and iam talking the lowest of the low.
illegals boost the economy, who else is going to do the job for half the price.
It doesn't matter how shit the job. Someone out there, some legal American citizen could be doing the work. Regardless of how many are actually out there is irrelevant, legal status should take precedence over all else.
theres one thing i dont understand......some of your ancestors crossed states lets say from like alabama to california in search for better job/life, but because there was no fuckin border its ok for them to cross, but not for "illegals" because there from another country.
Exactly. They crossed the states, within our own borders. Completely legal. Again, being in this country is a privilege, not a right that everyone in the world is entitled to.
fuck american history books.........there full of shit, its all from a european perspective. so much other important figures in history that you will never hear about. the vietnam war had thousands of latinos/hispanics and even blacks, but you rarely hear about that shit in the history books.
What the fuck? When has it ever been said that people fighting in wars are exclusively white? In every history book I've ever read, they always make it a point to say that minorities (be it blacks, women, even obscure minorities like the Irish) were vital in wars. Which I think is a complete waste of space, and they only do it to appease people such as yourself.
iam happy to see that universities are offering african/chicano studies classes, because iam tired of this traditional american bullshit history. for those who are interested in stuff like this i recommend these classes, it will open your eyes
What does this even have to do with immigration? Universities offer classes from cultures all over the world. Maybe if you would get over your own cultural biases you wouldn't think it was "traditional american bullshit history".
Henkie
02-27-2008, 04:12 AM
I think the intent of this thread was to show what we can expect if the next president does not make the illegal immigration problem more stringent.
What? More car-accidents? A more pissed of TFS? Either way, I can't really be bothered, you know...
What? More car-accidents? A more pissed of TFS? Either way, I can't really be bothered, you know...
Once again, assuming things...I'm anything but pissed.
Your ignorance is showing. Get a towel, make yourself decent.
If you can't be bothered to be concerned about crimes being committed in the US and the many different ways different crimes can be connected and lead to each other, then you really have no business posting an opinion on the matter.
If you have no regard for the law, or the manner in which crimes committed are connected to each other when establishing cause and effect, why did you even open this thread?
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