New Hadith Interpretation: I wish these guys success

[chalupa]

Basically they are saying that some of the most conservative (read: fundamentalist) interpretations of Islam, ostensibly based on Muhammed's teachings, are complete BS. I envision a great schism, and potentially a re-alignment of Sunni-Shia vs reformists. Good luck, people, this is truly what you need to accomplish.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm

Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.

As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia...

[Fungus Amungus]

Cause sprinkling surgar makes shit taste good.

EDIT: I misread what was going on. I'm glad that Islam is changing. Christianity had Martin Luther and he showed everyone it was ok to worship differenty. This might do the same.

[rand0m]

This is going to piss alot of people off ... But it's about fucking time ...

[chalupa]

EDIT: I misread what was going on. I'm glad that Islam is changing. Christianity had Martin Luther and he showed everyone it was ok to worship differenty. This might do the same.

The interesting part of this is that it is sponsored by a powerful Islamic government. They aren't doing it to make the world a better place, they are doing it to modernize their society and get more aligned with the West.

How much credibility will they have with the durkas? Probably none, but fighting the durkas with a Muslim ally is always a plus.

[Henkie]

You do have to realise that this is the Turkish Department for religious affairs, and that doesn't carry too much weight outside Turkey, and possibly the Turkish communities in Europe. The only chance of this spreading is if their theological universities can back it up with serious Theological reasoning and can spread it to other universities, and I doubt if that's going to happen, since it's obviously coming from what is (atleast officially) a secular governement trying to get into the EU. As such, I doubt it can withstand the pressures of political bias, although it matters by which part of the governement it's stimulated, which I'm not sure of, to be honest.

[chalupa]

You do have to realise that this is the Turkish Department for religious affairs, and that doesn't carry too much weight outside Turkey, and possibly the Turkish communities in Europe. The only chance of this spreading is if their theological universities can back it up with serious Theological reasoning and can spread it to other universities, and I doubt if that's going to happen, since it's obviously coming from what is (atleast officially) a secular governement trying to get into the EU. As such, I doubt it can withstand the pressures of political bias, although it matters by which part of the governement it's stimulated, which I'm not sure of, to be honest.

Yes, but they are about to unleash roughly 50% of the population...there will be some weight behind that, no doubt. From there, the ripple effect can likely carry it across to other societies...my guess is over to Asia first, and then back across through india towards the ME. That's just my guess, though.

EDIT: Changes like this will not happen overnight, but this "silent majority" of moderate Muslims may actually now have something to rally around. You hear about them all the time, but you never see them because they don't make noise. Unleash the women, give them muslim texts for support, legitimize their rights...there's no way this can stay a secret.

I foresee a BIG impact from this.

[j.elohim]

I foresee a BIG impact from this.

We'd all like it very much but common sense talk about the reason for many religious bans like this...


"Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone"

Prof Mehmet Gormez,
Hadith expert,
Department of Religious Affairs


...is not going to take hold in the ME. I'd love to be wrong, but considering Islam since year dot has been arguing over interpretation, this is just the newest in a long line. As you say, I suspect it might help some of the more moderate Muslims find a new position to rally around and hopefully push for actual change in the places it's most needed, which are, unsurprisingly, the places least likely to pay any attention to this.

Unfortunately, that is mainly due to the fact they have no incentive to. I'm sure some quite like women not being allowed to talk to anyone basically or leave the house without a male escort. We are asking an essentially mediaeval culture to completely re-evaluate itself which is something it has thus far failed miserably at on a large scale (of course some changes have been made locally i.e Iranian transsexuals etc).

[Zardozus]

Pre-Nazi (and during Nazi) Germany was the center of profound change in dealing with the Bible.
One of the terms we might use is a school of thinking called 'Higher Criticism' but let me put it this way:
The idea was to re-interpret the Bible as a sort of 'Allegory' and also to put as many passages into a sort of 'historical context'.
For example: If Paul included 'gays' in a passage about perverse or wayward practices the new way to understand this would be to say that Paul was simply writing in the context of his times.
Anyways,
At this point you have most of the teachings 'defused' but still given credibility for good advice in principle.

Well I don't think that necessarily cleared things up for anyone yet but the point is that this idea was very popular and to this day is basically the sort of 'liberal christianity' concept taught in most Uni's and Colleges now.

*I kinda laugh because I noticed some of the College books will not refer to the full German names of the references (probably sounds too nazi-like) so they say like 'The W Theory' instead LOL!

Point here.. this can now be applied to the Hadith and it really has to because these are sickening.. truly disgusting horror and murder, torture and rape books.
Would make you want to vomit if you read some of this stuff.
So,
The only way (and tried and tested on Christianity) is to turn them into this sort of 'higher criticism'.
For example you would say that Muhammad might only have been advocating actual physical warring Jihad FOR HIS TIME and in THAT context.
But,
We can now say that while the 'principle' of 'fighting for Allah' is still there and its still true... its now only a 'spiritual sense' and for the personal believer.
Along that lines.

Anyways, this has to happen eventually (it already has for many Muslims) but it will have to be they way to go for them to ever get past this stage they are in now in the ME.
After that?
Christianity will spread like wildfire through their Eastern gates and hopefully the Arab ME will become on of the most advanced, productive, innovative regions on the planet.
Even LEADING The Western world.

[TFS]

All great rennasiances start out as extreme minority fringe groups that carry little weight.

This is the start of something good, and I knew it was bound to happen. It won't really take off any time soon, and most likely won't really get anywhere big even within our lifetime, but the fact that it's starting and even got this bit of attention is a good thing.

[Quick_Draw21]

Point here.. this can now be applied to the Hadith and it really has to because these are sickening.. truly disgusting horror and murder, torture and rape books.
Would make you want to vomit if you read some of this stuff.

You must have a really weak stomach then. You always claim this yet every hadith I've read hasn't sounded that bad. Oh and before you plagiarize Prophet of Doom, try going to a non-biased website or heaven forbid, actually read a book written by a hadith scholar. :rolleyes:

Anyways, this has to happen eventually (it already has for many Muslims) but it will have to be they way to go for them to ever get past this stage they are in now in the ME.
After that?
Christianity will spread like wildfire through their Eastern gates and hopefully the Arab ME will become on of the most advanced, productive, innovative regions on the planet.
Even LEADING The Western world.

You do realize that some Muslim countries have had substantial numbers of Christians and Jews for centuries right? If anything most people will stop caring about religion like many people in the west now.

[Zardozus]

You must have a really weak stomach then. You always claim this yet every hadith I've read hasn't sounded that bad. Oh and before you plagiarize Prophet of Doom, try going to a non-biased website or heaven forbid, actually read a book written by a hadith scholar. :rolleyes:


Actually, Prophet of Doom is a great website and once again your an absolute moron if you think its 'plagiarism' for Prophet of Doom to QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE KORAN AND HADITH.

In fact if they did not post the actual verses then YOU would be the FIRST ONE saying 'Well show me these verses'.
So PoD DOES and sorry but you need to look up the word 'plagiarism' in any dictionary.
better yet do not ever use the term again or even try and 'think things through' either.

Here is a sickening one.. again not just documenting some injustice that did happen but its something done 'for the prophet and allah' and is a 'Muslim thing to do':
Tabari VIII:96
"A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm's daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm's daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him."

Here is a neat one:
Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

The Hadith have all sorts of disgusting passages and again - often things that 'should be done' in the name of Allah.
Slowly murdering people, raping girls, horrific executions and just about all the bloodshed you can handle.
Real sleazy cruel stuff too... executing Jews and 'taunting them' about it.. as Mohammad sits back and watches.
Sicko stuff.

[TFS]

What prophet of doom does is indeed NOT plagiarism, but it is actually libel: knowlingly printing false information with the intent to mislead those who read it in order to garner support for a specific agenda.

But what IS plagiarism is you printing snippets from prophet of doom as if it is YOU who wrote them yourself without crediting your source, which you've done, and which anyone with half a brain wrinkle laughs at you for since that is probably one of the dumbest sources to plagiarize. The least you could do for yourself is plagiarize the Encyclopedia Britannica and actually try to pass yourself off as educated instead of a source of blatantly false and biased "information."

Christianity will spread like wildfire through their Eastern gates and hopefully the Arab ME will become on of the most advanced, productive, innovative regions on the planet.

You're expressing that the only intelligent Arab is a Christian and that enlightened Muslims convert to Christianity, correct?





You've proven yourself time and again to be nothing but a ridiculous, ignorant, xenophobic bigot with absolutely no tolerance or understanding about the world you live in. You have no place commenting on matters such as this when you express such absurd opinions. You serve as nothing but a sad attempt at comic relief in regards to these kinds of topics.

[Jenovah]

Actually, Prophet of Doom is a great website

Then I guess it's alright for me go get bible quotes from evilbible then?

You've never actually read the Hadith, you just read random passages on websites that have an obvious agenda.

executing Jews and 'taunting them' about it..

Wasn't that exactly what the catholic church did during the inquisition?

Boy, christianity must be inherently evil then! :rolleyes:

[Zardozus]

But what IS plagiarism is you printing snippets from prophet of doom as if it is YOU who wrote them yourself

Good thing that has never happened here or anywhere else.

You've proven yourself time and again to be nothing but a ridiculous, ignorant, xenophobic bigot with absolutely no tolerance or understanding about the world you live in. You have no place commenting on matters such as this when you express such absurd opinions. You serve as nothing but a sad attempt at comic relief in regards to these kinds of topics.

Oh yes I have a place to express opinions and I can tell you the CE at Ebaums is not run by Muslims who will ban and censor anything that 'makes Islam look bad'.

Speaking of which.. what Hadith is it that has Mohammad taking turns with all his wives except when they are on their periods.. and I think its Aisha (the girl who was 9 years old when he had sex with her first) and there he does have her wearing period cloths around her in the bath but he will still fondle her anyways?
Instead of just denying this Hadith why don't you try and help me find it and then we can discuss it.

[Henkie]

What?! You can't find it on PoD, or something?

[Zardozus]

What?! You can't find it on PoD, or something?

No, found it in an online Koran somewhere but for whatever reason I think its Aisha.
Maybe you can help and find it?

[Jenovah]

No, found it in an online Koran somewhere but for whatever reason I think its Aisha.
Maybe you can help and find it?

Why not read an actual translated Koran instead?

That'll certainly help you in getting your points across.

[Henkie]

No, found it in an online Koran somewhere but for whatever reason I think its Aisha.
Maybe you can help and find it?

I could, but I can't see the relevance, though. The discussion is about a new interpretation, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be yours.

[Zardozus]

Why not read an actual translated Koran instead?

That'll certainly help you in getting your points across.

It is from an actual translated Koran (in this case though its the Hadith we are talking about).

Islampulse has:

Sahih Bukhari Book:1 Number:298

Narrated `Aisha:

The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in I`tikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

Does anyone want to hear how Aisha had to wash the semen off Mohammads clothes before he went to prayer?
She would either wash it off (Mohammad still having water spots on them while at prayer) or in another case she scrapes the dried semen off Mohammads clothes.

Not sure if that was when she was still 9 years old or if it was later (If I recall Aisha is 18 when Mohammad dies.. getting a bit too old for his tastes by then).

[Jenovah]

Does anyone want to hear how Aisha had to wash the semen off Mohammads clothes before he went to prayer?

No, there's already enough proof to show that you're a bigoted fool.

Criticizing Islam is one thing, but you're just provoking mindless fear-mongering.

[Zardozus]

No, there's already enough proof to show that you're a bigoted fool.
Criticizing Islam is one thing, but you're just provoking mindless fear-mongering.

Do you accept Bukhari as a reliable account Jenovah?

[Jenovah]

Do you accept Bukhari as a reliable account Jenovah?

I don't judge a religion by their holy scriptures, I judge a religion by their actions.

In my opinion Islam is in need of a Martin-Luther figure to outvoice the extremists sects that are like a cancer in muslim-societies.

There's nothing wrong with being a muslim perse, exactly like there's nothing wrong with being a christian or a jew, but the majority of the islamic world seems to be stuck in the dark ages due to extremist imams preaching hate with the moderate Islamic community staying silent, which really has to change.

Nothing will be accomplished by exposing Muhammed as a pedophile, it will only spread more hate against a community that is in need for some radical changes.

Of course, changing the scriptures to a new interpretation is important, since it will also change people's actions. But I will not judge people by certain passages that may be in their holy books, otherwise I could preach hate against almost every religion out there and that is not something that I strive for.

[chalupa]

Goddamnit, Zard, stay on topic.

Scholars in a powerful Muslim state are working to re-interpret Islamic teachings that go back hundreds to a thousand+ years that have been used to misdirect the religion.

I think this is a fantastic thing, and would love to see a Muslim Reformation. Thoughts?

[Jenovah]

I think this is a fantastic thing, and would love to see a Muslim Reformation. Thoughts?

I think it's fantastic as well, and I hope that it will change the minds of the muslim community. We can only hope that it all works out.

[TFS]

Goddamnit, Zard, stay on topic.

Scholars in a powerful Muslim state are working to re-interpret Islamic teachings that go back hundreds to a thousand+ years that have been used to misdirect the religion.

I think this is a fantastic thing, and would love to see a Muslim Reformation. Thoughts?

Indeed, let's stop feeding the plagiarizing troll.

As far as this new interpretation is neat and I can't wait to see where it goes.

[Zardozus]

I think it's fantastic as well, and I hope that it will change the minds of the muslim community. We can only hope that it all works out.

I have been speaking directly to the idea of reforming Islam here and before this thread.
First of all, you absolutely do need to expose the very worst of the worst first.. and this is something that the Christian Reformers like Luther (and others) had to do.
For example: Luther had to expose the practice of 'paying to get out of purgatory' as a fraud.
He first wanted to show where 'purgatory' was nearly impossible to find (even as a concept) in the Bible,
and,
There could be no justification for anyone being 'payed out' through the Church.
OK.
So can the same thing happen for Islam?
This is where something different (nearly the opposite problem) because the 'Reformers' in Islam are the Bin Ladens and the Iranian Revolutionaries.
They are the Reformers.

When I show you Hadith where Mohammad is having sex with a 9 year old girl I am trying to show you that IS their scriptures.
and,
What I am saying is that to ever Reform Islam you will need to not only 're-interpret' a good portion of the Koran but practically dump the Hadith entirely.
Fortunately, some Muslim DO disregard some of the Hadith and they might regard them as flawed historical accounts.
Good!
Thats a step in the right direction.

You're expressing that the only intelligent Arab is a Christian and that enlightened Muslims convert to Christianity, correct?


You are not very good at logical inference and those types of things but anyways..
I am expressing that most people practicing Islam are actually a lot better than the religion they are saddled with.
Islam is keeping them down.
Every Iranian I have ever met (and just looking at their culture) and these people are intelligent, an innovative and artistic people, keen on education and interested in progressive ideas.
but,
They are held back by this horrible, legalistic, dumbing-down and backwards religion called Islam.
They deserve to be freed from that Koran and if and when they ever do get free - you would see their culture and nation bloom and flourish.

They were going that way anyways, modernising, actually producing some fantastic artists, being innovative and then...
.... the Reformers came along and set them back 800 years, squashed all progress and held them prisoners of Mohammad, even to this day.

[chalupa]

I'm sorry, and I'm not picking a fight here, but zard, I have a tough time reading what you type. Maybe you just are typing in stream-of-consciousness or something, but your point really isn't clear. If you're saying what I think you're saying in this last post, then it may be that people are fighting with you because they didn't understand what the hell you were saying in the first place.

So, do you think a potential Islamic Reformation, starting in the secular state of Turkey is

a) a good thing?
b) possible?

[Zardozus]

So, do you think a potential Islamic Reformation, starting in the secular state of Turkey is

a) a good thing?
b) possible?

If by 'Islamic Reformation' you mean a 'liberal progressive' type of Reformation then I would think its a good thing.

It is possible because we already saw that happening, for example, in Iran 40 years ago.
Its already been happening in Turkey for quite a while and there you can find the most liberal interpretations as well as Hadith being given less and less value in Islam.

[Quick_Draw21]

Actually, Prophet of Doom is a great website and once again your an absolute moron if you think its 'plagiarism' for Prophet of Doom to QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE KORAN AND HADITH.

In fact if they did not post the actual verses then YOU would be the FIRST ONE saying 'Well show me these verses'.
So PoD DOES and sorry but you need to look up the word 'plagiarism' in any dictionary.
better yet do not ever use the term again or even try and 'think things through' either.

Getting caught up in your own web of lies isn't very fun, is it? YOU plagiarized PoD and claimed that it was your own research into the Koran without providing a source. I called you on it and you ignored my post. Anyone can look it up if they have premium but I don't really care. Oh and aren't personal attacks against CE rules? How very Christian of you.

No, found it in an online Koran somewhere but for whatever reason I think its Aisha.
Maybe you can help and find it?

You don't even know the difference between the hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith)and quaran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran)yet here you are claiming all sorts of bullshit. Read the two links and spare yourself the embarrassments next time.

[Zardozus]

YOU plagiarized PoD and claimed that it was your own research into the Koran without providing a source. I called you on it and you ignored my post. Anyone can look it up if they have premium but I don't really care. Oh and aren't personal attacks against CE rules? How very Christian of you.

Never happened.

You don't even know the difference between the hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith)and quaran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran)yet here you are claiming all sorts of bullshit. Read the two links and spare yourself the embarrassments next time.

I have repeatedly made the distinction between Hadith and Koran in this topic and every other one.
Even explaining the difference and even explaining the difference between Hadiths as well (some are accepted or rejected depending on which Muslims we are talking about).
I have actually explained this to you.

Did you actually have anything to contribute to this topic?

[TFS]

Never happened.



I have repeatedly made the distinction between Hadith and Koran in this topic and every other one.
Even explaining the difference and even explaining the difference between Hadiths as well (some are accepted or rejected depending on which Muslims we are talking about).
I have actually explained this to you.

Did you actually have anything to contribute to this topic?

Whoa, whoa, whoa....you claim to have explained the nuances between Islamic religious texts to a practicing Muslim as if he did not understand them?

That's amazing considering NO academic group accepts Prophet of Doom as a scholarly resource for research or reference on matters and it has consistently been the single main source you fall back on (whether you site it or falsely claim its work as your own). The name itself is cause for pause when considering the objectiveness of the site.

His contribution to this topic is the pointing out (once again) that you are of no consequence to any discussion regarding Islam since you lie about your research and sources, and even once you admit who your sources are, they fail to pass as an unbiased-enough and scholarly source from which one can expect to draw an objective and fair opinion. You're a plagiarist that steals from libelous sources. In other words, you have no credibility in regards to Islam, and very likely, in regards to any other topic as well. Quick Draw has a valid point in making this information known each and every time you try to speak up about this or any even-loosely related topic for the benefit of anyone who might make the unfortunate mistake of addressing you as some kind of legitimate scholarly mind about the matter.


And you called Quick Draw a moron...

Actually, Prophet of Doom is a great website and once again your an absolute moron if you think its 'plagiarism' for Prophet of Doom to QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE KORAN AND HADITH.

It's been demonstrated several times in the past that Prophet of Doom does indeed NOT accurately quote directly from the Koran or Hadith.

On top of that, no one's accusing Prophet of Doom of plagiarism, since they at least CLAIM to get their info from researching the Koran. But since it's proven to be blatantly false information, it could be accused of libel.

We're accusing YOU of plagiarism for quoting directly from Prophet of Doom and indicating that what you were quoting was your own work and not acknowledging Prophet of Doom as your source.

I guess plagiarists aren't big on reading comprehension, are they? It would explain how easily fooled you were into mistaking Prophet of Doom as an unbiased scholarly source.

Given all of that, you called him a moron, which is a personal attack.

[Zardozus]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....you claim to have explained the nuances between Islamic religious texts to a practicing Muslim as if he did not understand them?

I made a distinction between Hadith and Koran, know the difference and have constantly demonstrated that in this forum.
I think he is excited because while quick typing in a rambunctious 'bs forum' I wrote 'Koran' where the word 'Hadith' should have been.
Even though everyone knew what I meant - thats just how desperate people are to AVOID THE ACTUAL VERSES and worry about whats next.. typos I suppose?
Again, I have repeatedly and constantly been making the distinction between what is Koran and what is Hadith,
and,
Explaining that some Hadith ARE ISLAM, teachings of Islam and part of Islam almost in the same way the 'Gospels' are part of Christian teachings.

btw... this topic is about Hadith.

In fairness, if someone says "I was studying the Koran and..." they may well have ALSO been studying the Hadith or referring to that.
Its not at all unusual you study both at the same time (one informing the other).

That's amazing considering NO academic group accepts Prophet of Doom as a scholarly resource for research or reference on matters and it has consistently been the single main source you fall back on (whether you site it or falsely claim its work as your own). The name itself is cause for pause when considering the objectiveness of the site.

No 'academic group' eh!

But seriously, PoD (http://www.prophetofdoom.net/)is a great website and for some reason everyone is convinced I keep referring to PoD when its probably the one I visit the least lately.
I like FaithFreedom (http://www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm) a lot and especially AnsweringIslam (http://www.answering-islam.org/)

But what I really think is cute and funny is how I have been pasting Koran and Hadith verses from Pro-Islam Muslim education websites and so far nobody seems to have noticed that.
One screamed I was a bigot inciting hatred after I posted a Hadith from a PRO-ISLAM Islamic instruction website which posted the Verse FOR Muslims to learn.

It's been demonstrated several times in the past that Prophet of Doom does indeed NOT accurately quote directly from the Koran or Hadith.

Uh no.. it certainly has NOT been demonstrated and so far the only complaint anyone has made was that it used 'Old English' words like 'faggot' for a 'lit stick'.
PoD actually explains that it deliberately uses the older translations because some of the newer ones try and use the 'softest possible interpretation',
but,
PoD will give SEVERAL different translations just so nobody can complain and I see up to three different english translations in his articles.

On top of that, no one's accusing Prophet of Doom of plagiarism, since they at least CLAIM to get their info from researching the Koran. But since it's proven to be blatantly false information, it could be accused of libel.

No, nobody will ever be suing PoD for taking actual verses from the Koran and then giving his opinion about them.
Its not 'libel' and its not 'plagiarism' and of course no 'pro-Islam' complainant would ever want to have those verses read aloud in a Court case where everyone could hear them.

We're accusing YOU of plagiarism for quoting directly from Prophet of Doom and indicating that what you were quoting was your own work and not acknowledging Prophet of Doom as your source.

That never happened so maybe you could stop annoying me with that ridiculous accusation.
Instead, try to deal with the actual conversation, what it means and actually discuss it.

I guess plagiarists aren't big on reading comprehension, are they? It would explain how easily fooled you were into mistaking Prophet of Doom as an unbiased scholarly source.


PoD is biased... the author thinks the Koran and Hadith are disgusting, violence inducing and sickening, false and misleading teachings.
He thinks Mohammad is a fraud, a pedophile and a pirate.
He explains why.
At least he is giving some sort of explanation for WHY he has a bias and so far you dont seem to have any 'actual' rebuttal other than just saying 'NO ITS ALL LIES!'.
Well put up or shut up?