What would you call the badest Muscle car of all time?

[Kumacho]

They have to be street legal so no Super Stock Cudas here.

For me I guess it would have to be the ZL1 Camaro. But I could be persuaded that there was a nastier beasty.

[clutch-monkey]

i don't really know... i'd say the phase IV GTHO deserves a mention because media outrage killed it off after the phase III?

[elliott678]

i don't really know... i'd say the phase IV GTHO deserves a mention because media outrage killed it off after the phase III?I hate you, we never got cool Falcons with Cleavlands, we got 302 Windsors at the most.

I guess we should exclude the Shelby Cobra, because it was more of a sports car, it could turn.

I am kinda partial to these, even though in street trim the 429 was a dog, didn't take too much to wake one up though.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2150/00038wd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Kumacho]

Yeah, those silly guys in Australia get some really trick stuff.

The Falcon GTHO phase IV does deserve mention. Any idea where the 1 production car is today?

[clutch-monkey]

there's one in a bricked up garage and apparently two others locations unknown :(
I hate you, we never got cool Falcons with Cleavlands, we got 302 Windsors at the most.


it's not like america is short on muscle cars :p especially compared to our smaller market

i'll nominate the local products-
E49 charger (although was biased for circuit racing?)
torana SLR5000
falcon GTHO

anything euro that qualifies?


I am kinda partial to these, even though in street trim the 429 was a dog, didn't take too much to wake one up though.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2150/00038wd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

yah was it the intakes or ports that made it sluggish low down? i heard something to that effect i think

[elliott678]

yah was it the intakes or ports that made it sluggish low down? i heard something to that effect i thinkThe race ones were sluggish down low, but the street ones were pretty lazy throughout the band. It was a mixture of all of the things they had to do to de-tune it. The one in the picture is far from de-tuned, but is still streetable, the guy drove it 5 hours to that cruise in.

I do find it funny that everyone criticized the BOSS 429 for not being a true Hemi, when in fact it was better, it had quench.

[ftbllplr]

http://www.hlb.com/inovlog/Detomaso.jpg

[Kumacho]

http://www.hlb.com/inovlog/Detomaso.jpg

Panteras are sweet, but not a muscle car.

[Solego]

Even though my dream car is a '68 Camaro, the Chevelle was biggest, baddest 'roid raging muscle car of 'em all.

[reptilian_storm]

Do they have to be American? :p

77' V8 Vantage.

http://www.messengerpuppet.com/Car/amv8van.jpg
http://www.thecartorialist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/v8_vantage_munich.jpg
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/new/15021.jpg

[Skiptomylue]

im gonna say a shelby... you know.. that shelby Gm made...

honestly though, ive nver been a HUGE HUGE fan of the old muslce car era, i like them, i give them tons of respect, and i know only the select few, the camaros, chargers, novas, ect, but my fav, (please dont flame me..)
http://www.carelection.com/images/photo/shelby-gt500_eleanor_1967.jpg

[RTShadow]

I'd have to go with the 426 Hemi Cuda convertible. I actually sat in one that sold for 400,000 and then a year and a half later that owner sold it for 1.4 million. One of 12 made.

But... I also like the hemi chargers and superbees too. An underrated one is the Nova II, I like those old cars.

[veXati0n]

From a 50 roll I think i could win!

http://www.spiritoflindy.asso.fr/images/pageanneesswing/ford%20t-recadre.jpg

[sheepsoup]

Let me know if any of these don't count.

427 Vette:
http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/06/grissomvette.jpg

427 Cobra:
http://www.kitcarlist.com/images/gardnerdouglas-427cobra.jpg

Buick GSX:
http://www.classiccar.com/photopost/data/531/medium/1970_Buick_GSX_coupe.jpg

Honda NSX:
http://get4free.biz/wallpaper/Honda+NSX+Duke.jpg
Okay, I'm only kidding


Note that none of these are black, so I wouldn't be caught dead behind the wheel. Just how I roll.

[Fnr Bikes]

^^^^ A honda?!? lol....

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auctions/classic-detroit-iron-headlines-upcoming-mecum-auctions-event/6379357+w600+cr1+re0+ar1/1969-chevrolet-camaro-copo-zl-1.jpg
A mother fuckin 1969 camaro Copo

http://www.yenko.net/reunion/Db02.jpg
A 1 out of 30 yenko Nova

http://images.rodandcustommagazine.com/featuredvehicles/0704rc_01_z+1955_chevy_gasser+.jpg
A 55 Chevy 210 Gasser

The list go's on............ for days

[sheepsoup]

^^^^ A honda?!? lol....




Dude, don't disrespect. A lot of people out there don't realize that the original American muscle cars were built off of designs from companies like Honda, Toyota, and Kia.

For example, the Hemi 'Cuda is basically just a knock off of the 1969 Honda N600.

Educate yourself son.

[Meio]

anything euro that qualifies?

No takers?

I'm guessing by muscle car you mean big and powerful engine in the front, 2 seats, RWD?

Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
TVR Cerbera Speed 12
Bristol Fighter T

and maybe in future the Melling Hellcat.

Do they qualify?

[clutch-monkey]

No takers?

I'm guessing by muscle car you mean big and powerful engine in the front, 2 seats, RWD?

Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
TVR Cerbera Speed 12
Bristol Fighter T

and maybe in future the Melling Hellcat.

Do they qualify?

eh, i don't really think of those as muscle as such..the AM V8 posted earlier and the lotus carlton are closer imo?

[Meio]

eh, i don't really think of those as muscle as such..the AM V8 posted earlier and the lotus carlton are closer imo?

How are they not muscle when 3 of them are purported to have over 1000hp from front mounted V configuration engines (and the 3rd has over 500hp)? Sure I was considering putting an Aston, but didn't deem any of them to be bad enough.

How does a tuned saloon count as a muscle car (unless you're Australian)? TVRs all count as muscle right?

[Madthief]

I'm pretty sure a muscle car has to have a back seat, otherwise its a sports car, right?

[break3r]

http://www.gtoalley.com/gtopics/70gto1.jpg

[El Jarretto]

I think it's partly opinion. IMO modern cars can't be muscle. Early 70's at most.

[Meio]

I think it's partly opinion. IMO modern cars can't be muscle. Early 70's at most.

Well nobody in Europe made any cars that anyone called a muscle car back then, so no, there are no European muscle cars. Lots of Sports and GT cars with 2 doors, 2+2 seats, V engines in the front and rear wheel drive, but no muscle cars.

[rochainskool]

My personal favorite is the Nova so I'm going to say that.
http://www.pypesexhaust.com/gallery/gallery88-00.jpg
Along with the Chevelle SS
'68
http://www.mulvanemarauders.com/photos/members/mcdaniel68.jpg
'70
http://www.nofearmotorsports.com/images/chevelle.jpg

[Kumacho]

How are they not muscle when 3 of them are purported to have over 1000hp from front mounted V configuration engines (and the 3rd has over 500hp)? Sure I was considering putting an Aston, but didn't deem any of them to be bad enough.

How does a tuned saloon count as a muscle car (unless you're Australian)? TVRs all count as muscle right?

A muscle car is an automobile with a high horse power engine, modest weight, capable of producing high levels of acceleration. The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually made in the U.S. or Australia between 1964 and 1975. The term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. It is generally accepted that popular, widespread usage of the term took hold by the early to mid-1980s. During their heyday, print media usually referred to this class of vehicle as "supercars".

What you listed are either "sports cars" or "Supercars" and do not fall into the most widely recognized definition of "Muscle Car".

[clutch-monkey]

What you listed are either "sports cars" or "Supercars" and do not fall into the most widely recognized definition of "Muscle Car".
yeah, thats kinda of what i felt classified muscle cars - of modern cars some of the AMG mercs might classify on specs, but then not at all on opinion.

[Meio]

What you listed are either "sports cars" or "Supercars" and do not fall into the most widely recognized definition of "Muscle Car".

Hmm, I have a problem with the definition you used.

A muscle car is an automobile with a high horse power engine, modest weight, capable of producing high levels of acceleration. The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually made in the U.S. or Australia between 1964 and 1975. The term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. It is generally accepted that popular, widespread usage of the term took hold by the early to mid-1980s. During their heyday, print media usually referred to this class of vehicle as "supercars".

Too many caveats to be useful.

Oh and if you're using Wikipedia for your definitions then you're no longer allowed to call any car a 'supercar'.

Like I said, nobody called any cars 'muscle cars' in Europe, so no matter what cars I'd like to mention from over here none of them can be muscle cars. I was mentioning cars that seemed to be to be extreme European examples of my interpretation of muscle.

[Kumacho]

Hmm, I have a problem with the definition you used.



Too many caveats to be useful.

Oh and if you're using Wikipedia for your definitions then you're no longer allowed to call any car a 'supercar'.

Like I said, nobody called any cars 'muscle cars' in Europe, so no matter what cars I'd like to mention from over here none of them can be muscle cars. I was mentioning cars that seemed to be to be extreme European examples of my interpretation of muscle.

The definition on Wikipedia happens to be the generally accepted definition you will find in books and hear from most gearheads.

As far as Muscle Cars from Europe; there weren't any that I know of.

[clutch-monkey]

Hmm, I have a problem with the definition you used.



Too many caveats to be useful.

Oh and if you're using Wikipedia for your definitions then you're no longer allowed to call any car a 'supercar'.

Like I said, nobody called any cars 'muscle cars' in Europe, so no matter what cars I'd like to mention from over here none of them can be muscle cars. I was mentioning cars that seemed to be to be extreme European examples of my interpretation of muscle.
yeah, when i think of a muscle car i usually think of a 4 seater - 2 door coupe or 4 door saloon at times, and usually powered by a V8 ( but again, there are V6's, I6's).
i.e. i don't think of the shelby cobra, pantera, (mostly recent) corvettes, dodge viper, or the rover V8 MG, or the LS2 powered marcos TSO etc etc as muscle cars.
also, although generaly boxy i don't consider this a defining characteristic (monaro wasn't boxy).
where i disagree with your particular examples the most is that they're not based off normal passenger cars and simply up-specced, and they're relatively expensive from new (yeah i know the old AM V8 passes through this..every rule has an exception :D ).
i think most if not all primary examples in this thread are based off everyday passenger cars and grocery getters, which is why i thought the lotus carlton could be able to qualify.

[OE800]

IMO the baddest muscle car would probably be a cammer galaxie, the 426 max wedge cars, or a T-bolt. but there are so many to choose from theres no way i could ever pick an absolute favorite.

i consider the first "muscle car" to be the 409 impalas, some people claim the GTO to be the first, and others think the 1938 hudson terraplane qualifys as the first, theres no point in squabbling over the definition here, since most of these kids truly do not grasp the concept of what a muscle car is anyway.

Dude, don't disrespect. A lot of people out there don't realize that the original American muscle cars were built off of designs from companies like Honda, Toyota, and Kia.

For example, the Hemi 'Cuda is basically just a knock off of the 1969 Honda N600.

Educate yourself son.

i like this post.

[ahaga]

http://www.alancarrington.com/media/DIR_101922/DSCF14.jpg

[Fender]

^ oh yea

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/1969_Dodge_Charger.jpg

[printithere]

http://www.automotoportal.com/media/images/vijesti/060915001.7.jpg


lol

[Meio]

yeah, when i think of a muscle car i usually think of a 4 seater - 2 door coupe or 4 door saloon at times, and usually powered by a V8 ( but again, there are V6's, I6's).
i.e. i don't think of the shelby cobra, pantera, (mostly recent) corvettes, dodge viper, or the rover V8 MG, or the LS2 powered marcos TSO etc etc as muscle cars.
also, although generaly boxy i don't consider this a defining characteristic (monaro wasn't boxy).
where i disagree with your particular examples the most is that they're not based off normal passenger cars and simply up-specced, and they're relatively expensive from new (yeah i know the old AM V8 passes through this..every rule has an exception :D ).
i think most if not all primary examples in this thread are based off everyday passenger cars and grocery getters, which is why i thought the lotus carlton could be able to qualify.

Do you want a list of European cars that had V8+, 2+2 2 door bodies, that were based on a saloon and were built between 1964 and 1975?

Bentley T1 Coupe Speciale:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/1968_Bentley_T1_Pininfarina_Coupe_Speciale_side.JP G

Jaguar XJS (can't find a good image of a Mk1):
http://www.jdht.com/jdht_collection/jdht_image_update_06/Jaguar_XJS_OOM555R.jpg

Mercedes-Benz R107 generation SLs:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Mercedes_benz_1983_380sl_us.jpg

Rolls-Royce Camargue or Corniche
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Camargue.JPG

That's it I'm out... not that many V8s in coupes based on saloon chassis...

[clutch-monkey]

the problem isthe bentley and rolls royce (the jag too?) are hardly based on common affordable cars...

[ftbllplr]

Panteras are sweet, but not a muscle car.

I think they are, and if I think they are, then they are.

[reptilian_storm]

eh, i don't really think of those as muscle as such..the AM V8 posted earlier and the lotus carlton are closer imo?

As insane as the Carlton was it doesn't really have the muscle car image, more of an mental executive saloon. I've tried to think of other cars from Europe that might qualify but apart from the AMV8 i posted earlier i don't think there are any.

There are lot's of European cars that used V8's and V12's in the right period but none "I" would class as muscle. Sunbeam, MG, Triumph, Rover, TVR, and loads more all used V8's some even have the Muscle image but i still don't class them as Muscle cars.

Edit: Found one.

75' Jenson Interceptor III (7.2L Chrysler V8)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/500773004_52c4ec13f3_b.jpg

[sheepsoup]

i like this post.

I do what I can to lighten the mood around here as much as possible. Some people in here are way to sensitive.

Do you want a list of European cars that had V8+, 2+2 2 door bodies, that were based on a saloon and were built between 1964 and 1975?

Bentley T1 Coupe Speciale:

Jaguar XJS (can't find a good image of a Mk1):

Mercedes-Benz R107 generation SLs:

Rolls-Royce Camargue or Corniche

That's it I'm out... not that many V8s in coupes based on saloon chassis...


$ investment aside, let's not forget that the idea of the muscle car was to combine that into a package that actually delivered speed. I can't speak for the Bentley or the Rolls (though I think they speak for themselves), but I grew up with an SL and a Jaguar XJS and to put them into the same category as "muscle cars" is borderline blasphemy. The Benz was marginally quick (though it felt heavy for such a tiny car), and the Jag was flat out slow. The principle behind shoving a 396 into a Chevelle was to make it faster than everything else that came with a 396 if you get my drift. The cars you posted had big motors, and were small cars, but they don't hold a candle in a 1/4 mile to what most of the muscle cars were capable of.

Sorry Euros, you can't play in our sandbox. That's like saying "which American cars can we include as "early Grand Prix racers."

[Meio]

Sorry Euros, you can't play in our sandbox. That's like saying "which American cars can we include as "early Grand Prix racers."

Your sandbox? Hmm, funny way of phrasing it.

No, you're right, nearly all European fast cars were built the proper way from the ground up. If someone wanted something fast and cheap they'd get an older car or build their own.

We get real roadsters, you get real muscle cars. Building a roadster out of a saloon car would be stupid.

That's not to say we didn't get any powerful, front engined 2+2 cars, just like the Astons and Jensens (see CV8 for example).

[RTShadow]

I'll be the A-Hole then, because the Hemi Cuda is NOT based on this:

http://www.oldschoolimports.net/Cars/HondaN600.jpg

...in any way shape or form.

Also, a HONDA NSX is NOT a muscle car, in the same way that a Chevy Nova SS is not a tight track sports car.

[sheepsoup]

Your sandbox? Hmm, funny way of phrasing it.

No, you're right, nearly all European fast cars were built the proper way from the ground up. If someone wanted something fast and cheap they'd get an older car or build their own.

We get real roadsters, you get real muscle cars. Building a roadster out of a saloon car would be stupid.

That's not to say we didn't get any powerful, front engined 2+2 cars, just like the Astons and Jensens (see CV8 for example).

You're absolutely right. Our cars are not better than yours. Just different. In most cases, your best cars are vastly superior to our best cars.

I'll be the A-Hole then

No, you'll just be the only idiot in the thread with no sense of humor.

[RTShadow]

No, you'll just be the only idiot in the thread with no sense of humor.

touche you dirty whore :D

[Kazimierz]

Charger, hands down.

[OE800]

yeah 68-70 chargers are beyond bad ass, as long as theres a 440 or a 426 under the hood, and a pistol grip between the seats.