For the ones defending diving in soccer......

[FinnJL]

You often hear that players dive and fall down in soccer because they have to protect themselves or that it is really difficult to stay on your feet.

Just have a look at this video, of the great, late George Best in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nplemK3Y4ns

Watch especially the three clips from 1:25 to 1:57 and fucking tell me that it is difficult to stay on your feet. Every single modern soccer player, not just the worst divers, would have dived in those situations, and i cant remember ever seeing anything similar in modern soccer. Just fucking look at he tackles the defenders puts in at the clip starting at 1:48. There would have been at least one red card(the first) and a couple of yellow cards in the modern game if the player had just fell down.

I have been a diving apologist every now and then, but then i once again looked at what the time when the beatiful game really was beautiful and players tried to play. I dont think that the real dives, the ones that have no contact, are so bad as they happen really rarely, but in every single league in every single country, the players go down from the slightest of contact, and it just brings the level of play down. I love soccer to death, but something has to be done, as i didnt realise how far it had gone as i hadnt watched old soccer footage in a while.

[modogthemonkey]

You often hear that players dive and fall down in soccer because they have to protect themselves or that it is really difficult to stay on your feet.

Just have a look at this video, of the great, late George Best in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nplemK3Y4ns

Watch especially the three clips from 1:25 to 1:57 and fucking tell me that it is difficult to stay on your feet. Every single modern soccer player, not just the worst divers, would have dived in those situations, and i cant remember ever seeing anything similar in modern soccer. Just fucking look at he tackles the defenders puts in at the clip starting at 1:48. There would have been at least one red card(the first) and a couple of yellow cards in the modern game if the player had just fell down.

I have been a diving apologist every now and then, but then i once again looked at what the time when the beatiful game really was beautiful and players tried to play. I dont think that the real dives, the ones that have no contact, are so bad as they happen really rarely, but in every single league in every single country, the players go down from the slightest of contact, and it just brings the level of play down. I love soccer to death, but something has to be done, as i didnt realise how far it had gone as i hadnt watched old soccer footage in a while.

I whole heartily agree...but not many players have the balance,skill and grace of the great, late George Best.



Edit: The one at 3.47 is a perfect example

[FinnJL]

I whole heartily agree...but not many players have the balance,skill and grace of the great, late George Best.

i can think of one who plays for the same club with the same number on his back who probably could stay up more often if he wanted to.

I would suggest the following: To the real divers, the ones that dive when there is no contact, i suggest a one-three match ban.

In situations where there is an actual foul, but where the player also dives and over-exxagerates, the ref could maybe give the free kick, but move it 10 or 15 metres back. That just to prevent the fouling team from getting of the hook, but also penalizing the diving team as most dives happen close to the goal, so moving the ball 10 to 15 metres back would definitely not be something a team prefers or wouldnt care about. There would have to be some exceptions obviously, as moving the free kick back 10 to 15 meters would probably be preferable in some positions(around the corner flag), but in general i think it would work, without changing the flow or the character of the game too much.

[Henkie]

Not everybody's as good as Best.

But anyways, I don't get why people make such a fuss about diving. Defenders make intentional fouls all the time, and we never make that big a deal out of it, but when an attacker does it, we're bloody outraged because of his supposed lack of sportsmanship. It just doesn't seem fair.

[modogthemonkey]

i can think of one who plays for the same club with the same number on his back who probably could stay up more often if he wanted to.

Cant disagree again...but he has seem to curb lately maybe because it so frowned upon in this country.

[4savo4]

Best is just one of those players if you put in him the 1930's 1990 and 2000's he wouldn't look out place.

[elvis]

Not everybody's as good as Best.

But anyways, I don't get why people make such a fuss about diving. Defenders make intentional fouls all the time, and we never make that big a deal out of it, but when an attacker does it, we're bloody outraged because of his supposed lack of sportsmanship. It just doesn't seem fair.

Yeah, but when a defender intentionally fouls someone its to stop them from scoring a goal, they realize its probably gonna get called and it usually does. It's just an extension of a component already in the game. Diving is stupid, if they want to act they should try drama thats all i have to say

[Shymega]

It's so hard to get rid of diving in this sport. Only way for it to go away is if the players just stop, their is nothing the refs can do. If the refs call everything a dive that closely resembles one, than players would be getting sent off left and right.

I guess they'd have to figure out a way to punish a diver without it being too harsh. Like in hockey when it had it's brief diving spell, now in a diving situation either nothing gets called to the opposing player, or if it does get called, he gets sent off to the penalty box which is not good at all, so they just stopped it. So two things can come out of a dive; 1. Nothing 2. Penalty on you.

Good thing diving is only really big in South America, Italy and Portugal.

[elvis]

i think the clear cut dives deserve a red card. and i mean this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W00d3yJKl4

[FinnJL]

Not everybody's as good as Best.

It wasnt about his talents as a player, but his willingess to stay on his feet.

But anyways, I don't get why people make such a fuss about diving. Defenders make intentional fouls all the time, and we never make that big a deal out of it, but when an attacker does it, we're bloody outraged because of his supposed lack of sportsmanship. It just doesn't seem fair.

That would be comparable to an attacker that makes an intentional foul, but not comparable to an attacker(or defender) who dives. When a defender makes an intentional foul, he makes it because he is in a position where his skill cannot help him take the ball legally, and to prevent more damage to his team he chooses to intentionally foul someone, instead of letting them score. Just the same as an attacker may be in a position where he intentionally fouls a defender or goalkeeper in order to score a goal, as he is in a position where his skill isnt enough, and the possibility of getting the goal gives more reward than the possibility of getting called for it.

Diving isnt the same as a foul, it is the play acting, the fabrication OF a foul, and these are two different things.

And, as i said, it is the overexxagerating of every contact that bugs me, so therefore your comparison to a defender fouling on purpose isnt valid, because we actually DO penalise these actions, but not the exxageration of every single contact. It has come to a point, where we have become used to players just falling over once they have no chance of getting to the ball, and it is shocking.

[AsHopeDies]

Diving is frowned upon so heavily because it is a fabricated part of the game. It's not a true part of the game.

Passing, scoring, defending, fouls, etc. that's the game. Faking a foul...not the game. It's a dishonest attempt to cheat the game. It honestly goes against the game.

That's why people hate it.

[FinnJL]

It's so hard to get rid of diving in this sport. Only way for it to go away is if the players just stop, their is nothing the refs can do. If the refs call everything a dive that closely resembles one, than players would be getting sent off left and right.

I guess they'd have to figure out a way to punish a diver without it being too harsh. Like in hockey when it had it's brief diving spell, now in a diving situation either nothing gets called to the opposing player, or if it does get called, he gets sent off to the penalty box which is not good at all, so they just stopped it. So two things can come out of a dive; 1. Nothing 2. Penalty on you.

I think my idea about taking back the free kick 10-15 metres wouldnt be that bad, as the fouling team wouldnt get off the hook, but there would still be no reason to overexxagerate.

Good thing diving is only really big in South America, Italy and Portugal.

Sadly it isnt the case, and more of a myth. The "hardnosed" "honest" brits do it also, and even though they may not do the clear cut dives, they also fall down just as easily as their southern counterparts. Rooney and the oh-so-honest Gerrard in particular.

[Marcos2990]

after watching some videos on youtube, I have to say that Henry is one huge diving cunt. Some of his dives are so fucking disgraceful.

[Henkie]

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules and as such it's part of the game. I don't see why diving is that much different from other fouls, apart from the fact that if anybody is physically hurt by it, it's the one doing the diving.

[4savo4]

Some blame has to go on refs, i mean they they won't give most fouls unless the players go down. Even though it's quite clearly a foul. Shirt pulling for example.

[Rado]

You're making diving sound a lot more often than it actually is.

Though I just wish someone would do something about players who dive. Regardless if it's their first or 100th time.

[Meio]

They should treat diving like any other serious infraction where if the ref doesn't notice at the time (or can only issue a maximum red card anyway), it can be dealt with by a post match adjudication panel. A string of multiple match bannings for being a cheating scumbag should slow it down a bit?

[Henkie]

They should treat diving like any other serious infraction where if the ref doesn't notice at the time (or can only issue a maximum red card anyway), it can be dealt with by a post match adjudication panel. A string of multiple match bannings for being a cheating scumbag should slow it down a bit?

So you're basically saying they should make it a red-card offence? And truely, nobody has yet been able to explain why it's more cheating that making a bad tackle or stopping the ball with your hands...

[4savo4]

So you're basically saying they should make it a red-card offence? And truely, nobody has yet been able to explain why it's more cheating that making a bad tackle or stopping the ball with your hands...

I do think it should be judged like Bad tackles. If you are trying to dive in the area it should be a red, outside yellow. Like bad tackles are punished, red for last man or goals scoring opportunity.

I think that could cut it out.

[Shymega]

You have to feel for the refs though. Look at yesterday at how Kleb was fouled inside the box, but because Kleb added a little extra to it, it made it look like a dive. How can you blame the refs there?

[AsHopeDies]

So you're basically saying they should make it a red-card offence? And truely, nobody has yet been able to explain why it's more cheating that making a bad tackle or stopping the ball with your hands...

Those two things are part of the game. A tackle is part of the game, you take it too far or come in late, then it's a foul and you get penalized.

Hand balls can go either way. Accidental hand balls and reflex hand balls are like fouls. They happen naturally, they are part of the game. The Maradona hand ball though, that's more like a dive.

The deciding factor? It's the deception. It's unnatural, it's not a part of the game. It's a lie, and that's why people hate it so much and that's how it's different than those things you mentioned.

There's a difference between cheating and lying. Crouch climbing that guys back in the world cup was cheating, but it was very different than diving. It's more respectable because Crouch cheated, but he was making an effort to score, to make a play, he was trying. When you dive, you not only lie, but you quit on the play. It's not an effort to make a play, you are trying to get a gift, not gain anything by yourself.

I always think the guy didn't have enough confidence to make the play himself, so he tried to take the easy way out. If he had the drive and the confidence, he'd beat the defender and make the shot or the pass. It seems like a total cop out.

You have to feel for the refs though. Look at yesterday at how Kleb was fouled inside the box, but because Kleb added a little extra to it, it made it look like a dive. How can you blame the refs there?

Oh hell yeah, it's worse for refs than for anyone else. The entire game suffers. It's the boy who cried wolf. Diving has happened often enough for real fouls to be blown off as dives, it's frustrating.

Hleb getting a yellow yesterday was a joke. He got mauled.

[Mysterio]

So you're basically saying they should make it a red-card offence? And truely, nobody has yet been able to explain why it's more cheating that making a bad tackle or stopping the ball with your hands...

Its cheating because it can change an outcome of a game very easily. Let's take Australia vs Italy in the last world cup. Game was tied at 0-0 with 2 mins left. Figo from Italy dives in the Aussie box It was a clear dive, but the ref had pretty good eyes, and called it against the Aussies giveing the Itialins the penelty kick to win the game. Anything that can change an outcome of a game (something hr players does) is cheating, Roids, putting vasalene in your glove, haveing bigger goalie pads, illegal stick curves, etc.. are all forms are cheating.

We need more Vinnie Joneses in soccer, people who werent afriad to tackle, or get tackled. With all the diveing it's easy to see why it's such a pussy sport.

[Shymega]

Its cheating because it can change an outcome of a game very easily. Let's take Australia vs Italy in the last world cup. Game was tied at 0-0 with 2 mins left. Figo from Italy dives in the Aussie box It was a clear dive, but the ref had pretty good eyes, and called it against the Aussies giveing the Itialins the penelty kick to win the game. Anything that can change an outcome of a game (something hr players does) is cheating, Roids, putting vasalene in your glove, haveing bigger goalie pads, illegal stick curves, etc.. are all forms are cheating.

We need more Vinnie Joneses in soccer, people who werent afriad to tackle, or get tackled. With all the diveing it's easy to see why it's such a pussy sport.

There is diving in every sport where possible. Basketball it's called flopping and it happens alot, but since scoring and fouling is so high, no one notices a flop here and there, they just let it go.

Baseball has the players that fall to the ground and make pretend they got hit. I've seen this 5 or 6 times with the Yankees alone last year, even Jeter.

Hockey has divers just like soccer, but becuase of a possible penalty against them for an opposing power play, you see it less often, but it still happens.

I don't understand how trying to gain a little edge in one sport makes it a pussy sport, but in other sports it's not. In soccer it's just more magnified.

[AsHopeDies]

There is diving in every sport where possible. Basketball it's called flopping and it happens alot, but since scoring and fouling is so high, no one notices a flop here and there, they just let it go.

Baseball has the players that fall to the ground and make pretend they got hit. I've seen this 5 or 6 times with the Yankees alone last year, even Jeter.

Hockey has divers just like soccer, but becuase of a possible penalty against them for an opposing power play, you see it less often, but it still happens.

I don't understand how trying to gain a little edge in one sport makes it a pussy sport, but in other sports it's not. In soccer it's just more magnified.

I think the perception has a lot to do with the frequency and the way it's handled. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending those other things you mentioned, but I don't remember seeing a player of any of those sports do anything that resembles what Ronaldo does or what Dida did etc. It's the over acting and acting as if you just got shot that leads to the "pussy" claim. A guy doesn't even get fouled and they flail to the ground making stupid faces and acting as if they just broke their leg, even faking convulsions in Dida's case. You have to admit it, diving in soccer just looks so fucking gay.

[Shymega]

I think the perception has a lot to do with the frequency and the way it's handled. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending those other things you mentioned, but I don't remember seeing a player of any of those sports do anything that resembles what Ronaldo does or what Dida did etc. It's the over acting and acting as if you just got shot that leads to the "pussy" claim. A guy doesn't even get fouled and they flail to the ground making stupid faces and acting as if they just broke their leg, even faking convulsions in Dida's case. You have to admit it, diving in soccer just looks so fucking gay.

Of course some make it look bad. But no one can say the sport is pussy because of the diving and how they react, even though it does look bad sometimes, cause in all sports it goes on.

[AsHopeDies]

I agree with you

[4savo4]

I still think Netball is where all the action is at :raiseeyeb

[Canty]

You have to feel for the refs though. Look at yesterday at how Kleb was fouled inside the box, but because Kleb added a little extra to it, it made it look like a dive. How can you blame the refs there?

Not seen the match you are referencing but maybe Kleb (whoever he is) shouldn't have performer theatrics in order to swing the refs decision.

If it were up to me diving would be a straight red, no excuses and a 3 match ban.

It would stop immedietley. Another good outcome is that this would mean that Arsenal would be relegated due to lack of penalties/injury time.

[Unhinged]

Not seen the match you are referencing but maybe Kleb (whoever he is) shouldn't have performer theatrics in order to swing the refs decision.

If it were up to me diving would be a straight red, no excuses and a 3 match ban.

It would stop immedietley. Another good outcome is that this would mean that Arsenal would be relegated due to lack of penalties/injury time.

Sometimes the theatrics are just human nature or reflex. If you're running balls out towards the goal and you feel your legs taken out from under you, you may act out in anticipation of the impact about to happen. Sometimes, that impact may be lesser than previously thought, and it looks like overly dramatic theatrics. I've done it at times, not on purpose or trying to sway the refs decision, but because I'm not really thinking about my reaction, just what is going to happen at impact with the ground.

[Henkie]

By the way, what if a ref gets it wrong? What if he sees a dive, but it is an actual foul? If we start a witch-hunt for diving, won't that happen all the time?

[4savo4]

By the way, what if a ref gets it wrong? What if he sees a dive, but it is an actual foul? If we start a witch-hunt for diving, won't that happen all the time?

That happens already it's part and parcel of the game. He will get decisions wrong.

[Meio]

Like I said, don't change the refs decisions at all. They can book for deception, but it's just that deception so obviously the ref isn't supposed to see it. Just like the violence off the ball, or the tackle which turned out to be much worse than it looked from the ref's angle (or vice versa); cheating scum should be open for post match scrutiny and possible bans. Why should diving be treated any differently from other serious infractions of the rules and spirit of the game like inappropriate gestures and such.

I think that Prem. refs need to take a zero tollerence approach to the rules, booking decent every time it happens, telling players to get to their feet when they go down too easily through fair contact, booking players who use simulation for deception, booking foul language, and so on. You see very little of this shit in Rugby Union because they know that match bans are a Union board meeting away with no favoritism (just ask Martin Jonson).

David Elleray thinks post-match video evidence should be used to stop diving, so I'm not the only one.

[AsHopeDies]

Like I said, don't change the refs decisions at all. They can book for deception, but it's just that deception so obviously the ref isn't supposed to see it. Just like the violence off the ball, or the tackle which turned out to be much worse than it looked from the ref's angle (or vice versa); cheating scum should be open for post match scrutiny and possible bans. Why should diving be treated any differently from other serious infractions of the rules and spirit of the game like inappropriate gestures and such.

I think that Prem. refs need to take a zero tollerence approach to the rules, booking decent every time it happens, telling players to get to their feet when they go down too easily through fair contact, booking players who use simulation for deception, booking foul language, and so on. You see very little of this shit in Rugby Union because they know that match bans are a Union board meeting away with no favoritism (just ask Martin Jonson).

David Elleray thinks post-match video evidence should be used to stop diving, so I'm not the only one.

I completely agree. I don't think a dive should ever be a straight red, because I think it is such a judgment call, especially at full speed. Refs don't have the advantage of slow motion replay. Hleb got an undeserved card in the CL game in my opinion, I saw no theatrics. But I think we've all seen a dive called when it's not a dive. That's why a straight red is such a bad idea.

But the knowledge that fouls will be reviewed after games on tape, with substantial bans on the line, will cause players to stop diving in my opinion. The gain from deceiving the ref is outweighed by the knowledge that you can't really deceive the camera in slow motion. Players would know what they face and would stop diving.

[Meio]

But the knowledge that fouls will be reviewed after games on tape, with substantial bans on the line, will cause players to stop diving in my opinion. The gain from deceiving the ref is outweighed by the knowledge that you can't really deceive the camera in slow motion. Players would know what they face and would stop diving.

Exactly, just like you don't see players smacking each other or making Nazi salutes at each other when the officials aren't looking, because they'd be spotted, cited and banned. No different.