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View Full Version : 2,3..or even 5 trillion dollars?


Nocturnal
03-04-2008, 05:51 PM
Good times, the cost keeps on rising.

March 4, 2008 | Every nation that goes to war makes that war its religion. Wars are always holy, necessary and sacrosanct. That's why asking how much a war costs is blasphemous. It's like asking how much God is worth.

Hence the Bush administration's predictably apoplectic reaction to Joseph Stiglitz and Linda J. Bilmes' new book, "The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict." "People like Joe Stiglitz lack the courage to consider the cost of doing nothing and the cost of failure," White House spokesman Tony Fratto declaimed. "One can't even begin to put a price tag on the cost to this nation of the attacks of 9/11. It is also an investment in the future safety and security of Americans and our vital national interests. $3 trillion? What price does Joe Stiglitz put on attacks on the homeland that have already been prevented? Or doesn't his slide rule work that way?"

Since the Iraq war hasn't done anything except endanger the future security of Americans and jeopardize our vital national interests, it's tempting to reply that Fratto's slide rule is the one that's busted. But his overblown rhetoric refutes itself. When official spokesmen accuse a Nobel Prize-winning economist of cowardice, you know that a direct hit has been scored.

As far as I know, Stiglitz and Bilmes' landmark book is the first to break the taboo against counting up the costs of an ongoing war. Not only does it reveal the staggering actual cost of Bush's war of choice -- at least $3 trillion -- it details what we could have done with that money if we had spent it more wisely. The book also argues that Iraq is partly responsible for the nation's current economic crisis: The Federal Reserve Bank under Alan Greenspan tried to offset the adverse effects of the war by lowering interest rates, which helped cause the subprime debacle when interest rates inevitably rose.

The import of their insistence on looking at the war's cost now, while it's still in progress, can't be underestimated. By forthrightly acknowledging that armed conflict should be subject to a cost-benefit analysis, they implicitly puncture the sacrosanct aura of patriotism surrounding war -- and make it harder for governments to launch future wars as ill-considered as the present one we find ourselves in.

To put Stiglitz and Bilmes' $3 trillion in perspective, it's worth comparing it to the cost estimates Bush officials bandied about before the war began. The authors present a damning "Nightline" transcript in which one official, Andrew Natsios, blandly told Ted Koppel that Iraq could be completely reconstructed for only $1.7 billion. (With the war now costing $12.5 billion a month, Natsios' estimate would have been accurate if he had stipulated that it would pay for four days' worth of reconstruction. Which, considering the delusional nature of most of the Bush administration's pre-invasion estimates, may have been how long it thought it would take to rebuild the country.) Other officials settled on a figure of $50 billion to $60 billion. Larry Lindsey, Bush's economic advisor, went way out on a limb, suggesting that the war might cost $200 billion -- a figure derided by then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as "baloney." Rumsfeld refused even to offer a range of estimates, saying, "I've already decided that. It's not useful." He was right: It would not have been useful for those ginning up support for a war to predict that it might cost $3 trillion.

In 2005, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the war had so far cost about $500 billion. That figure was obviously far higher than initial Bush administration estimates, but Stiglitz and Bilmes suspected it was still much too low. After researching the issue, they published a paper in January 2006 that conservatively estimated that the true cost of the war would be between $1 trillion and $2 trillion. Even at the time, they regarded that estimate as excessively conservative, but didn't want to appear extreme. Stiglitz and Bilmes' book, which is based on that paper, doubles their earlier estimates to $3 trillion, making Iraq the second most expensive war in U.S. history, trailing only World War II, which cost an adjusted $5 trillion (and in which 16.3 million Americans served in the armed forces, with 400,000 dying). But the authors regard even their new figure as conservative: Their estimates range from $2 trillion, in the best-case scenario in which the U.S. withdraws all combat troops by 2012 and fewer veterans need medical and disability pay, to more than $5 trillion. Add in the cost to the rest of the world, and the price tag could exceed $6 trillion.
(continues)

This is a useful exercise, since for anyone who isn't an original employee of Google, any figure above $10 million is almost incomprehensible. Reading this book, I had to keep repeating to myself: A billion is a thousand million dollars, and a trillion is a thousand billion dollars. But even that didn't really help me visualize the numbers, so I turned to specific issues. For example, the state I live in, California, is suffering a serious budget crisis that has resulted in major cuts in education and other areas. California has a vast economy, and the shortfall is massive: $3.3 billion. That's a lot of money -- but just reallocating about one week's worth of Iraq funding would wipe it out.

Domestically, the authors note that a trillion dollars could have fixed the Social Security crisis for 50 years, built 8 million housing units, or hired 15 million public schoolteachers for a year.

Abroad, "[t]wo trillion dollars would enable us to meet our commitments to the poorest countries for the next third of a century." For a "mere" $8 billion, the cost of two weeks of the war, we could have fully funded the world campaign to eradicate illiteracy. And imagine the benefits if we had used some of that money for a Marshall Plan for the Middle East that "might actually have succeeded in winning the hearts and minds of the people there."

It is too late to do any of that now, and too late to bring back the more than 4,300 Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, or the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died. But the authors want to make sure that future wars come with a full disclosure statement. Their aim is to restore financial responsibility. But they also have a deeper purpose: to prevent America from cavalierly rushing into war. To that end, they propose a number of reforms.

* Wars should not be funded by "emergency" supplemental spending bills, as Iraq has been for five years in a row, because such funds are not subject to the same oversight as regular appropriations.

* War funding should be linked to strategy reviews. If a war is going badly, the administration should be required to explain why and present strategies for improving it.

* The full costs of war -- present and future -- should be clearly presented. The Department of Defense should be required to present auditable books to Congress. As the authors note, "the accounting practices used by the government are so shoddy that they would land any public firm before the Securities and Exchange Commission for engaging in deceptive practices."

* Congress should cut back on the excessive use of contractors in wartime. The heavy outsourcing of military tasks to the private sector has driven up costs astronomically, led to massive corruption and incompetence, and "limited the extent to which America has felt the human toll of the war ... the percentage of the U.S. population bearing the cost of a conflict is the lowest ever."

* Finally, the authors call for current taxpayers to be required to pay for any war lasting more than one year, by levying a war surtax. As they point out, "[w]ar has become too easy for America ... The war has been financed by debt." This not only burdens future generations with debts they did not incur, but it makes it all too easy for Americans, especially in the absence of a draft, to sign off on wars. "As the United States has emerged as the sole superpower ... spending 47 percent of the total for the entire world on armaments, there is no last line of checks against its abuse of military power -- other than the active involvement of its citizens."

There is no free lunch, and there are no free wars. Wars do not stimulate the economy: They drag it down. We will all be paying for this disastrous war for decades. With Americans disillusioned about the Iraq war, and the economy tanking in part because of it, the cold, undeniable economic message of "The Three Trillion Dollar War" may finally sink in. Perhaps it will make it harder for governments to wage future frivolous wars. But even if it only succeeds in forcing our society to honor our commitment to take care of our veterans, this book will have succeeded.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2008/03/04/trillion_dollar_war/index.html

I'd like to add that even a fraction of this money might have been enough to break our dependence on oil for good.

Bergs
03-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Ron Paul said that in a speech months ago. It made me sick to my stomach then. Now I am numbed to the pain. The administration further reveals their foolish arrogance through Tony Fratto's statements. They would sooner see the United States go bankrupt than realize that the Iraq War is unnecessary and flawed.

chalupa
03-04-2008, 06:26 PM
Ron Paul said that in a speech months ago. It made me sick to my stomach then. Now I am numbed to the pain. The administration further reveals their foolish arrogance through Tony Fratto's statements. They would sooner see the United States go bankrupt than realize that the Iraq War is unnecessary and flawed.

A lot of people have been saying things like this for a while now, but every time you do, you get accused of "cut and run" and "surrendering to terror" and "the terrorists win" and "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" and "we have prevented uncountable attacks by going there."

It is all bullshit, and it breaks my heart that america can not see through the rhetoric.

Basspunker
03-04-2008, 07:03 PM
It is all bullshit, and it breaks my heart that america can not see through the rhetoric.

A cookie for your broken heart?

PitwrkzZ1
03-04-2008, 07:12 PM
Fucking politicians disgust me...Its so freakin easy for them to talk about "Honor" and "Cut and Run", all the while the American people will be paying for this God forsaken war for the next century and soldiers continue to pay with their lives and limbs.

Boomer
03-04-2008, 08:17 PM
We must firmly support the Iraq War because Saddam had WMD and links to terrorists. Iraqis are having better lives now that we gave them freedom. In fact, we should allow the government to wire-tap our phones, emails and all other records without warrant to make our country even safer. If you are not a terrorist loving hippie, then you have nothing to hide.

Remember, the government always has you best interest in mind and our politicians are honest group of people with high integrity.

Papero
03-04-2008, 08:36 PM
We must firmly support the Iraq War because Saddam had WMD and links to terrorists. Iraqis are having better lives now that we gave them freedom. In fact, we should allow the government to wire-tap our phones, emails and all other records without warrant to make our country even safer. If you are not a terrorist loving hippie, then you have nothing to hide.

Remember, the government always has you best interest in mind and our politicians are honest group of people with high integrity.

I am so proud to be an American this minute.

Deamatix
03-04-2008, 08:59 PM
I'd like to add that even a fraction of this money might have been enough to break our dependence on oil for good.

But that wouldn't be good for oil companies, so it's not likely Bush or his cronies would have let that happen anyway.

scavenger
03-04-2008, 11:34 PM
I found an excellent commentary on this issue.

A Policy of Unrelenting Force

George Bush, famous for outlandish claims that have no bearing on reality, has outdone himself by claiming that the problem with Vietnam was that the U.S. withdrew its troops rather than fighting harder and longer.

In a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, he didn't say how long the U.S. should have stayed, but he did claim that the reason for the bloodshed in Cambodia, and the prison camps in Vietnam following withdrawal, was not the war itself, but the failure to continue the war without end.

Presumably, then, if Bush were president for life back then, we would still be in Vietnam, the draft would still be in place, and the bloodshed would have continued for decades.

My, what a vision! You might think this is madness. In fact, it is the reductio ad absurdum of a particular worldview that he and his friends have adopted.

Along the same lines, a few years ago, William Bennett, the former drug czar turned hyper-gambler, said that we shouldn't have abandoned alcohol prohibition. It was working just fine. And after it was repealed, drinking went up. Had we stayed the course, he said, we would be a healthier and more moral society.

Many on the left say we should not have abandoned the 55mph speed limit. Things were going just fine. The repeal has made our roads less safe and increased people's dedication to the car and made us more dependent on foreign oil.

Maybe we shouldn't have backed away from 90% income tax rates. Now the rich get richer, as less of their earnings are tossed to the wind.

Maybe we can do the same about the wage and price controls as during Hoover's and FDR's New Deals — why the heck did we abandon the war on low prices? The same goes for wage and price controls under Nixon in the early seventies — why did we just walk away from the war on high prices?

For that matter, let's go back to the Civil War, especially given the numbers of Confederate flags that still fly outside rural homes south of the Mason Dixon line. The military occupation and anti-insurgency was going well, and what did we do? We cut and ran, and left a whole region to languish in racism and hate.

It's interesting how those who believe in force as an article of faith eventually go the whole way, believing that the lessening of force is never the answer, and that all the problems in the world call for one and only one answer: ever more scary threats of violence. Force, for this crowd, is the great organizing principle of society, the answer to all existing problems now, in the past, and in the future. It becomes for them the overriding social and political salve, and there are no considerations that can possibly refute this contention.

We saw the extreme result of this mentality in the Soviet Union, which pursued the path of force for 72 years, and blamed all existing failures not on socialism but on the failure to impose this system without any misgivings or regrets. A dictator with ultimate power can impose such a system until the whole of society crumbles into a heap, and still not be willing to face the errors of his ways. Force is an article of faith. To embrace freedom means to concede the limits of power.

In the case of Vietnam, there would have been no such thing as the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia had the U.S. not embraced Pol Pot. In the same way, al-Qaeda got its start during the Cold War because the U.S. saw the radical Islamicists as anti-communist allies. The extremists in Afghanistan were once seen as glorious freedom fighters. Their training camps, guns, and furnished caves were provided courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

So it is in Iraq today. After the U.S. overthrew Saddam's government, the plan was to jump-start a new central government under U.S. control. That's when the fighting started. What group would control it? There is no answer to that question, even today. The U.S. has always thought the Shiites should run the show, religious law and all. But that plan hasn't worked out.

On the day that Bush delivered his speech about the coming dawn in Iraq, 15 Americans died in combat. Another 11 were seriously wounded from a suicide bomb. On the Iraqi side, 154 died and another 175 were wounded. The death parade marched through Baiji, Baghdad, Tikrit, Iskandariya, Hawija, Flaifel, and Tal Afar. The mayor of al-Kharba was assassinated.

This was in one day! Now, to the critical question that vexes all political and social science: why? I don't mean the proximate cause. I mean the ultimate cause. If you are Bush, the answer comes as a matter of faith: these unruly people need more force. When that doesn't work, the answer is additional force. When that doesn't work, we need more force still. And so on, war without end.

There is no refuting these claims since the matter of cause and effect requires a slightly complicated set of deductions. It is the same with all matters of government control. It was prohibition of the alcohol trade, not alcohol itself, that generated violence. It was price controls, not the market pressure for high and low prices, that caused economic problems. It was the 55-mile-per-hour speed limit that made criminals out of 100% of drivers, not the normal propensity to want to get where you are going at a reasonable speed.

And so it is with Iraq. The desire to get rid of the foreign military occupier is a universal feature of political history. To recognize the failure of force is to admit that the state cannot accomplish all that it claims it can accomplish. It is to admit the big lie. Doing so requires humility, a willingness to own up to mistakes, a desire to face reality and to think about the long term. These are traits that the state and its managers do not possess in large supply. Witness: George Bush.

No, Iraq will not blossom like a rose garden the day after U.S. troops leave. There will be bloodshed, and how much we cannot know. But the critical thing is that these people will be governing themselves, and the critical thing that prevents progress today — the presence of the foreign occupier — will be gone. The solution is imperfect, to be sure, but it is better than the opposite of turning the entire world into a prison camp run by the U.S. government.
http://www.mises.org/story/2690

And I suppose I should add my own opinion, to avoid feeling like eieio and people who used to just post links without saying anything original. So: Basically, the Bush administration has dug itself into a hole (as Ron Paul put it), and all they can do to avoid losing face is keep digging and hope to reach the other side of the world.

I think there's another reason our leaders feel committed to this war. They probably figure, "We've already invested so much that if we give up now, we'll have wasted those trillions of dollars." Economists refer to this as the sunk-cost fallacy: Whether it cost you a bunch of money in the past has nothing to do with whether or not it's a good idea to change plans now. The money has already been spent, and there's nothing you can do about it; continuing with the bad plan will only make things worse.

TFS
03-04-2008, 11:53 PM
Fuck it all, I'm voting for Bob Dole.

Capt_Canada
03-05-2008, 12:22 AM
I've always thought "Why help other country's when there is so many problems in Canada that we need money to help solve". The same thing can be said for America, why spend trillions helping other country's when there is alot wrong in your own country.

Fungus Amungus
03-05-2008, 02:08 AM
Nocturnal I respect your opinion, but your sources of news/articles is VERY poor and biased. Shame.

chalupa
03-05-2008, 10:24 AM
Nocturnal I respect your opinion, but your sources of news/articles is VERY poor and biased. Shame.

How so? The book the article is talking about is written by a Noble prize winning economist. The article may not be by Fox news online, but the book is still out there. I'm more interested in the book than the people talking about it.

Fungus Amungus
03-05-2008, 12:25 PM
You really like to judge people don't you? You automatically assume I like fox news? I hate all the TV channels, the only that is watchable is NBC. Anyways back to the point, this isn't a news article. It's a onesided article, he claims that Americans are "delusional". Look I'm not saying this because I support the war, but this is a Current Events forum and I thought posting articles on opinion rather than current events was prohibited. This is just as bad as posting a blog post.

ps I don't care if you win a noble prize, doesn't mean shit.

chalupa
03-05-2008, 12:31 PM
You really like to judge people don't you? You automatically assume I like fox news? I hate all the TV channels, the only that is watchable is NBC. Anyways back to the point, this isn't a news article. It's a onesided article, he claims that Americans are "delusional". Look I'm not saying this because I support the war, but this is a Current Events forum and I thought posting articles on opinion rather than current events was prohibited. This is just as bad as posting a blog post.

ps I don't care if you win a noble prize, doesn't mean shit.
Sorry, I wasn't judging you. I was more poking fun at Fox's "Fair and Balanced" tagline vis a vis this article than I was talking about you. Apologies, it was not meant towards you in any way.

How about the book and what the author is saying? Some of those numbers are staggering.

...as for the Nobel prize. Some of them are silly (Peace) others have real meaning (Physics). I think the Economics one is held in pretty high regard.

Nocturnal
03-05-2008, 12:51 PM
You really like to judge people don't you? You automatically assume I like fox news? I hate all the TV channels, the only that is watchable is NBC. Anyways back to the point, this isn't a news article. It's a onesided article, he claims that Americans are "delusional". Look I'm not saying this because I support the war, but this is a Current Events forum and I thought posting articles on opinion rather than current events was prohibited. This is just as bad as posting a blog post.

ps I don't care if you win a noble prize, doesn't mean shit.

As bad as a blog post? No way in hell is that even close.

This is an article discussing a book that comes with facts and explanation of the analysis. This "opinion" article as you say has more facts than any "news" article I've ever read on the subject.

droogsteve
03-05-2008, 01:23 PM
White House spokesman Tony Fratto declaimed. "One can't even begin to put a price tag on the cost to this nation of the attacks of 9/11.

They're STILL using 9/11 to justify the war in Iraq!! Could they have anymore gall?

Yep, apparently they can:

George Bush, famous for outlandish claims that have no bearing on reality, has outdone himself by claiming that the problem with Vietnam was that the U.S. withdrew its troops rather than fighting harder and longer.

In a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, he didn't say how long the U.S. should have stayed, but he did claim that the reason for the bloodshed in Cambodia, and the prison camps in Vietnam following withdrawal, was not the war itself, but the failure to continue the war without end.

Holy Jesus Christ on a jet ski, I can't believe the balls on Bush!!! He had his chance to go fight the good fight in Vietnam, but used his Daddy's connections to duck the war while others died in his place. Now he says "We should have fought harder and longer". Who's "we" there W, you got a Vietnam veteran mouse in your pocket? Or does "we" mean "stupid poor kids without well connected Daddies"? You, meaning YOU, had your chance to fight and chose not to, and yet still have the unmitigated sack to say others should have fought longer and harder?! The level of hypocrisy cannot be measured with available technology.



Holy shit, that makes me angry. I guess it's easy to be a hawk if others are doing the dying. I just don't know how the fuck he looks at himself in the mirror in the morning.

Bergs
03-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Holy Jesus Christ on a jet ski, I can't believe the balls on Bush!!!

I just made a scene in the law library laughing so damn hard.

shade
03-05-2008, 03:47 PM
A lot of people have been saying things like this for a while now, but every time you do, you get accused of "cut and run" and "surrendering to terror" and "the terrorists win" and "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" and "we have prevented uncountable attacks by going there."

It is all bullshit, and it breaks my heart that america can not see through the rhetoric.

My reply to such lame arguments is that we already surrendered to Al Queda the moment we suspended the 4th amendment and habeas corpus. We already sacrificed our liberty "so Al Queda could not hurt us."

I then call the person a surrender monkey coward who is so afraid of terrorists that they are willing to give up what makes them American: constitutional protections.