White People in Africa

[Soak A Toa]

Continuing discussions from before...

"Land must remain in our hands - the land is ours, it must not be allowed to slip back into the hands of whites" -Mugabe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7333918.stm

(warning: gore) http://www.honestmediatoday.com/archives17.htm

White farmers, who have been ruthlessly murdered by Blacks in South Africa in acts that can only be described as mass-genocide, have now received warnings from their very own government that these farmers, who have peaceably lived on the land for countless generations, must now give up their land or pay the price. While the International Community ignores the viciousness occurring in South Africa, seemingly because the victims are White and the perpetrators are Black, the genocide of the White farmers continues unabated, with the South African government turning a blind-eye to this wicked massacre of people who merely want to grow crops on the land and feed the population.

If France or England was enslaved for hundreds of years, and then finally set free but with another race, Oh-I-Don't-Know-Say-Blacks, still maintaining farms (but still doing good for the people), does that give the right to throw them out? Much less murder them, rape their women, and burn their crops? Or to do the same to any tourists with money who visit?

The case here is more than just racial hatred, but claiming land based on a false sense of heritage rather than utilitarian values.

As John Locke said, "As much land as a man tills, plants, improves, cultivates, and can use the product of, so much is his property."

I've heard once the whites are kicked out, the blacks starve and don't know what to do with the land. It's pure violence, no profit.






Follow-up: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aIhWk5E0lQkA&refer=uk

http://www.topnews.in/war-veterans-lay-siege-again-zimbabwe-white-farmers-231863

It's also become apparent that this is a typical dictatorship. Mugabe, unifying his people by making white people the bad guy (like the Nazis with Jews) AND by starving his people, is creating an easily persuaded, sheep-like populace. After the white people are gone, all that will be left is for them to turn on each other, in an effort to keep "purifying" their country. It won't end.

Many make the case that this is genocide.

[Spike Lee]

No it doesn't make it right, that land was given to elites in Zimbabwe. So it was still a disservice.

[rand0m]

Shows how fucking discraceful Africa is. Why we bother trying to help them is beyond me.

[American Infidel]

DAM NIGGERS *caps*

Do you ever have anything to contribute? You're a troll.

[drahkcorjc]

It seems that Africa only advances because of outside help from Europe and America. What do the blacks want - for us to completely leave them alone? Will that stop the killing? Then I say go for it. Let's pull out every last aid-worker and missonary and just let them fight over their land or diamonds or whatever. I'd like to see where that continent will end up if that happened.

[Spike Lee]

It seems that Africa only advances because of outside help from Europe and America. What do the blacks want - for us to completely leave them alone? Will that stop the killing? Then I say go for it. Let's pull out every last aid-worker and missonary and just let them fight over their land or diamonds or whatever. I'd like to see where that continent will end up if that happened.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

European internvention and the spread of racist propoganda initiated by Europeans have a left a mark on ther culture of many African countries.

[American Infidel]

Contrary to popular Spike Lee belief, Islam has taken firm root in Africa.

[Spike Lee]

Firm root in North Africa. But that is not what I am talking about.

[drahkcorjc]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

European internvention and the spread of racist propoganda initiated by Europeans have a left a mark on ther culture of many African countries.

So, you're saying all the problems in Africa, includintg but not limited to AIDs, genocide, starvation, blatant government corruption, etc. etc. etc. is Europe's fault?

[Spike Lee]

So, you're saying all the problems in Africa, includintg but not limited to AIDs, genocide, starvation, blatant government corruption, etc. etc. etc. is Europe's fault?

Genocide and starvation are the a result of European colononial propogranda about race and superiority. AIDS is the fault of the governments in Africa.

[drahkcorjc]

How is starvation the result of European propoganda? Central and South Africa contains some of the most fertile earth on the entire planet. What is stopping the indigenous people from farming?

[Spike Lee]

Because of racism within the country. I'm not gonna let the African governments off the hook, but the racist views were spawned majorly from European propoganda.

[drahkcorjc]

So what you're saying is that the white people trying to farm in Africa right now are paying the price for the deeds their ancestors commited hundreds of years ago?

Sounds like Affirmative Action lol.

[Spike Lee]

So what you're saying is that the white people trying to farm in Africa right now are paying the price for the deeds their ancestors commited hundreds of years ago?

Sounds like Affirmative Action lol.

In a way, yes. And it's not just their ancestors. Sometimes it the owners themselves. They voted and used apartheid and other policies to claim that land.

[drahkcorjc]

In a way, yes. And it's not just their ancestors. Sometimes it the owners themselves. They voted and used apartheid and other policies to claim that land.

OK, but even if it's truly their fault, and they really kicked the black people off their own land, is brutally murdering them the answer? They can't figure out a decent, civil way to settle things?

[Spike Lee]

I'm not advocating it at all.

[rand0m]

They voted and used apartheid and other policies to claim that land.

Yeah, and what did they do with that land?

They build schools, roads and basic infrastructures. They farmed it and employed locals, feeding their countries. They governed and policed it.

Our western world has gone through hundreds of years of social evolution to get where we are and coincide with current technology. Throwing the kind of technology and ideologies born out of our social evolution onto their primitive social structure wouldn’t work.

Look at Africa ever since they kicked us out? Its a shit hole. Genocides, wars and governments stuffed full of corruption. Complete economic shit hole. You're arguments would be valid if Africa showed any signs of improvement ...

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, and what did they do with that land?

They build schools, roads and basic infrastructures. They farmed it and employed locals, feeding their countries. They governed and policed it.

Our western world has gone through hundreds of years of social evolution to get where we are and coincide with current technology. Throwing the kind of technology and ideologies born out of our social evolution onto their primitive social structure wouldn’t work.

Look at Africa ever since they kicked us out? Its a shit hole. Genocides, wars and governments stuffed full of corruption. Complete economic shit hole. You're arguments would be valid if Africa showed any signs of improvement ...

I'm sorry, they may have had infrastructure and roads but that does not justify apartheid. And South Africa has done faily well with infrastructure and roads. Remaining poverty is attributed to the legacy of apartheid.

[Danimal87]

I'm sorry, they may have had infrastructure and roads but that does not justify apartheid. And South Africa has done faily well with infrastructure and roads. Remaining poverty is attributed to the legacy of apartheid.
Separating the races in the past has absolutely nothing to do with not coming up with enough crops. The idea that not allowing blacks into white areas would make them incapable of farming is laughable. All civilizations have been doing it for thousands of years. Its a complete copout on the part of people in the west such as yourself who construct policies of unending aid that only feed African corruption, plus the incompetent and corrupt blacks themselves. Zimbabwe, back when it was called Rhodesia and was ruled by whites, was called the breadbasket of the continent. Thousands of murders, robberies and rapes later plus one coup, we have Zimbabwe, with inflation off the charts and a population that is fleeing the country to simply keep from starving.


If you look at Africa before European colonization and then look at it today, you would see a remarkable difference. Before Europeans arrived, there was endless warfare, starvation, slave trading. Blacks essentially lived in the stone age. Now, they have modern medicine, roads and cars, airports, industry and trade. And people like you think that they are worse off now, despite all of this, because the Europeans looked down on them because they were black.

Nevermind that they also did this in India and Egypt, which are now modern countries after being free for about as long as Africa has been. India is now a world player in the international marketplace. They went through internal divisions, just like most African countries, yet they solved them.

Nevermind that Ethiopia was never colonized, only conquered and occupied by Italy for a few years, from 1935 until 1940 or so, IIRC the dates. If colonization is the source of African problems, then Ethiopia wouldn't be struggling as it is.

Zimbabwe has its problems because they have a leader that buys Mig-29's when he should be buying food. Its all rather clear, if you just don't automatically accept these Big Lies of the day.

[I 0_0 I]

Contrary to popular Spike Lee belief, Islam has taken firm root in Africa.

Its been there for more then 800 years...

north africa to be precise. Which has nothing to do with christian southern africa...that is mirred in this heinous stuff that this thread is about.

[Spike Lee]

Separating the races in the past has absolutely nothing to do with not coming up with enough crops. The idea that not allowing blacks into white areas would make them incapable of farming is laughable. All civilizations have been doing it for thousands of years. Its a complete copout on the part of people in the west such as yourself who construct policies of unending aid that only feed African corruption, plus the incompetent and corrupt blacks themselves. Zimbabwe, back when it was called Rhodesia and was ruled by whites, was called the breadbasket of the continent. Thousands of murders, robberies and rapes later plus one coup, we have Zimbabwe, with inflation off the charts and a population that is fleeing the country to simply keep from starving.


If you look at Africa before European colonization and then look at it today, you would see a remarkable difference. Before Europeans arrived, there was endless warfare, starvation, slave trading. Blacks essentially lived in the stone age. Now, they have modern medicine, roads and cars, airports, industry and trade. And people like you think that they are worse off now, despite all of this, because the Europeans looked down on them because they were black.

Nevermind that they also did this in India and Egypt, which are now modern countries after being free for about as long as Africa has been. India is now a world player in the international marketplace. They went through internal divisions, just like most African countries, yet they solved them.

Nevermind that Ethiopia was never colonized, only conquered and occupied by Italy for a few years, from 1935 until 1940 or so, IIRC the dates. If colonization is the source of African problems, then Ethiopia wouldn't be struggling as it is.

Zimbabwe has its problems because they have a leader that buys Mig-29's when he should be buying food. Its all rather clear, if you just don't automatically accept these Big Lies of the day.

We never will know how good or bad it will have gotten. I support their independence regardless. The difference with India is that they had navigable river, countries were also formed from the carvings of Europeans regardless of tribal affiliation.

[Danimal87]

We never will know how good or bad it will have gotten. I support their independence regardless. The difference with India is that they had navigable river, countries were also formed from the carvings of Europeans regardless of tribal affiliation.
Tell Joseph Conrad, author of "Heart of Darkness" (based on his own experiences traveling the Congo river hundreds of miles upstream) that Africa doesn't have a navigable river. And lest you forget, India went through a violent split itself when Pakistan went its separate way. And remember the caste system within India that still exists? And I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't even more divisions within Indian society. Yet they achieve anyway.

Every country has problems, and most solve them, but not in Africa.

[Spike Lee]

Tell Joseph Conrad, author of "Heart of Darkness" (based on his own experiences traveling the Congo river hundreds of miles upstream) that Africa doesn't have a navigable river. And lest you forget, India went through a violent split itself when Pakistan went its separate way. And remember the caste system within India that still exists? And I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't even more divisions within Indian society. Yet they achieve anyway.

Every country has problems, and most solve them, but not in Africa.

I'll tell him. These rivers do not connect with each other. You can't link with other rivers and explore the many regions of Africa. I think you should read Guns, Germs and Steel first.

And already, I have said that colonialism is a factor on why Africa is the way it is. There are many factors involved including themselves.

[Danimal87]

I'll tell him. These rivers do not connect with each other. You can't link with other rivers and explore the many regions of Africa. I think you should read Guns, Germs and Steel first.
That might be a good read, but I'm not sure why exploration is still an important thing when we already know what the entire continent looks like. Its already explored, Spike.

[Spike Lee]

That might be a good read, but I'm not sure why exploration is still an important thing when we already know what the entire continent looks like. Its already explored, Spike.

Not for exploration, but for trade and connecting the continent and trade routes.

[PartyTaco]

Shows how fucking discraceful Africa is. Why we bother trying to help them is beyond me.

hmm...

Do you mean we as in Americans? or we as in the rest of the world?

Either way we(whomever you identify yourself with) don't do it for recognition we do it to bring them up to a decent self sustainable standard of living.

Which who knows if thats actually possible with capitalism, but we sure do try. You might try looking up philanthropy.

p.s. Once you understand the value of human life then you'll understand why people do this.

No it doesn't make it right, that land was given to elites in Zimbabwe. So it was still a disservice.

I rarely post because you seem to take the words out of my mouth most of the time. (I don't mean to connect myself to you in anyway, but I just wanted to throw that out there.)

[Nocturnal]

That might be a good read, but I'm not sure why exploration is still an important thing when we already know what the entire continent looks like. Its already explored, Spike.

It's an excellent read.

Crops, disease, basic geography, all stacked against the inhabitants of Africa.

[Soak A Toa]

Follow-up: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aIhWk5E0lQkA&refer=uk

http://www.topnews.in/war-veterans-lay-siege-again-zimbabwe-white-farmers-231863

It's also become apparent that this is a typical dictatorship. Mugabe, unifying his people by making white people the bad guy (like the Nazis with Jews) AND by starving his people, is creating an easily persuaded, sheep-like populace. After the white people are gone, all that will be left is for them to turn on each other, in an effort to keep "purifying" their country. It won't end.

Many make the case that this is genocide.

[Canuk]

The main difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia)today is that in South Africa, they didn't punish the whites for apartheid while in Zimbabwe they did. Both Zimbabwe and Rhodesia under apartheid were major regional economic powers. White farmers in both South Africa and Rhodesia turned unused land into land for crops that could be exported. Also, the notion that the whites stole the blacks land is a joke considering most of those tribes were mostly nomadic and were not tied down to any particular piece of land, they moved around. That being said, land was set aside in both South Africa and Rhodesia for the locals to use (which they by and large didn't). The Whites built roads, schools, dams, and gave people access to water, electricity and sewage systems. The Whites built hospitals and created police forces. I wont deny that Apartheid was harsh on blacks but prior to the whites arrival they were fighting each others with sticks, had very short life spans and would die from starvation and disease. Development brought increased safety, health care, education and higher standards of living. While they may not have been treated the same as whites their lives were greatly improved by the whites arriving.

What is clear also from observing the events that occurred after the fall of apartheid is that the whites were the ones propping those countries up. South Africa continues to prosper because the whites didn't leave after the fall of apartheid and continued to farm and manage the country. In Zimbabwe, they punished the whites and drove them out of the country. The result was that the blacks that took over the country did not know what they were doing. They didn't know how to farm the land and they didn't know how to manage the country. Now, in Zimbabwe they rarely have power and water, the sewage systems don't work, they have horrible corruption and they are starving to death. All of this is the result of driving the whites away who were the only ones competent enough to run the country.

[_jax]

So, you're saying all the problems in Africa, includintg but not limited to AIDs, genocide, starvation, blatant government corruption, etc. etc. etc. is Europe's fault?
nah not all of africa's problems are europes fault

in my mind it's africa's fault for not inventing guns before the white man to keep the crackers out.

but let's just say that africa did ok "progressing" without european or american intervention for quite some time, before they were overrun and colonised by just about everyone else around them.


EDIT - that said, can't undo the past, and they should let the white farmers keep their land if it benefits them. if they were somehow harming the native africans with their presence then.. well.. can't do much about violent uprisings but if they are adding to the economy it just seems stupid on behalf of the natives.

[PartyTaco]

It's the continents fault for not inventing guns before a white colored person?

[_jax]

not the continent but the civilizations within the continent. yes. if they had superior weapons to the europeans then i'd wager to bet african history would've played out a little different.

[PartyTaco]

World history would have played out differently.

You are being incredibly ethnocentric.

[Soak A Toa]

Hah. What he's saying is "If only..."

Well, I think you're a true Darwinist. It's the weak's fault for being weak.

[Danimal87]

World history would have played out differently.

You are being incredibly ethnocentric.
And whats wrong with that? Ethnicities, races, nations, cultures, etc. survive by putting themselves before others. You may as well condemn him for putting his friends or family first.

[YoungMasterGold]

This thread makes me sad :wah:

[shade]

This same thing happens in South America. Every now and then a socialist government steals land from white farmers or corporate farms to redistribute it to the natives. Then the natives starve because they don't know how to farm.

They call it "land reform".

[Al Paccioli]

This same thing happens in South America. Every now and then a socialist government steals land from white farmers or corporate farms to redistribute it to the natives. Then the natives starve because they don't know how to farm.

They call it "land reform".

You don't "steal" land from white farmers or corporate farms, you take it back.