Ready for $3.00 and maybe $4.00 per gallon prices?

[Asbestos Crayon]

I'm not talking about milk prices. If a long term civil war breaks out in Saudi Arabia, you can bet gas prices will go up to at least $4.00 a gallon. Best hopes is that a peaceful transfer of powet to an elected parliment will take place.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128348,00.html

[Bajee]

Now im glad im not bringing my car to college.

[Jay-Z]

It'll be like the 80's all over again! Wait a sec.. How do I know that I was even born then.. Hmmm *Ponders*

Argh! Damn Vh1!!

[Jimbola]

That's nothing, in the UK we pay 81p per litre, which is $1.50.

Converted into gallons and we get: $1.50 per 0.25 gallons roughly.

So, it's $6 per gallon here (bear in mind this is the base rate, and companies often slap a higher charge on to get more profit). The US still has the cheapest petrol prices from anywhere in my knowledge. :o

[moosenuts]

That's nothing, in the UK we pay 81p per litre, which is $1.50.

Converted into gallons and we get: $1.50 per 0.25 gallons roughly.

So, it's $6 per gallon here (bear in mind this is the base rate, and companies often slap a higher charge on to get more profit). The US still has the cheapest petrol prices from anywhere in my knowledge. :o
We also drive different cars and traditionally have larger distances to travel. So it all evens out.

[tiger army]

Gotta love Texas. Fast cars and fast women. Cheap gas and even cheaper whores. YEEEEEhaw (first time i ever said that and it feels awful)

[brainkandy87]

It's funny...here where I live, it's 1.82 on average. But, you drive a few miles down the road, it's 1.69. How fucked is that?

I remember when I was bitching gas was 1.15 when I first got my car. :p

[J_Dawg]

I can get gas from a little fundraiser gas coupon book thing for 50 cents. It's cool, especially since gas over here costs about 2 bucks per gallon.

[killjoy]

One word... OILPEAK!

[RolandOfGilead]

This is why we need to standardize fuel cell-operated cars. The combustion engine was an outdated joke of a system 20 years ago. There's no logical reason for it to even still exist. We can save what's left of the fossil fuels for plastics and various petroleum-based products. It would be cheaper, it wouldn't pollute, it could go farther and last longer (eventually), it's potentially less dangerous to the driver, car parts would last longer because they wouldn't be worn down by the heat of expelled methane fumes...it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Jay-Z]

This is why we need to standardize fuel cell-operated cars. The combustion engine was an outdated joke of a system 20 years ago. There's no logical reason for it to even still exist. We can save what's left of the fossil fuels for plastics and various petroleum-based products. It would be cheaper, it wouldn't pollute, it could go farther and last longer (eventually), it's potentially less dangerous to the driver, car parts would last longer because they wouldn't be worn down by the heat of expelled methane fumes...it just doesn't make sense to me.

How fast would they go?

[Chewy]

My dreams have been crushed when the gas prices went up and they stopped making this dream care. http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/chrysler.shtml
I was in Vegas at a car show and they had one. Pretty cool makes you think what a Viper would be now if they prefected it.

[unbeltedjoker]

all i have to saw is that the way these gas prices are going up...ill be rideing around on a damn moped just so i can afford gas.....and fuck electric cars

[vchampionl70]

The answer is A.N.W.R. in Alaska. If the congress allows drilling in Alaska, the amount of oil produced would drastically lower prices of gas. This would put more money in our pockets, and potentially allow the government to collect more taxes.

At the same time, the gov't should begin funding new technology to replace oil soon, and create some initiatives, like not taxing new fuel technology for the first 10 years to allow it to boom. Personally, I feel if they can enhance the hyrdrogen technology, that would be the best route to take - but we need to start replacing the gas stations with hyro ones.

But, to say oil is stupid and we should stop using it and switch is an awful idea. As long as oil is cheaper, it should be used because it would be in the best interest of the consumer. The key is to start collaborating on other ideas now . As for high prices... just remember A.N.W.R. can solve the problem.

[dead]

The answer is A.N.W.R. in Alaska. If the congress allows drilling in Alaska, the amount of oil produced would drastically lower prices of gas. This would put more money in our pockets, and potentially allow the government to collect more taxes.

At the same time, the gov't should begin funding new technology to replace oil soon, and create some initiatives, like not taxing new fuel technology for the first 10 years to allow it to boom. Personally, I feel if they can enhance the hyrdrogen technology, that would be the best route to take - but we need to start replacing the gas stations with hyro ones.

But, to say oil is stupid and we should stop using it and switch is an awful idea. As long as oil is cheaper, it should be used because it would be in the best interest of the consumer. The key is to start collaborating on other ideas now . As for high prices... just remember A.N.W.R. can solve the problem.
idea 1 stop using the suv in america that will save you a whole lot of oil use smaller cars instead.
idea 2 stop the airconditining it use a whole lot off energy.
idea 3 let manufacturers put less plastic in their product material.
and for a.n.w.r. it will only help for a short time to lower the prices it's never enough to support the whole american oil society.
also for hydrogen how do you make this what is needed to make hydrogen ?
energy
it isn't a feul it's just a energy holder like a battery
it cost more energy to make hydrogen then it produce.
and i would never be enough to support the whole american ecenomy
and what do you think that is needed to make hydrogen cars ?
oil
sorry that i have ruined you nice dream but just look around almost everything you use is made of oil.

[Big D]

The answer is A.N.W.R. in Alaska. If the congress allows drilling in Alaska, the amount of oil produced would drastically lower prices of gas. This would put more money in our pockets, and potentially allow the government to collect more taxes.

At the same time, the gov't should begin funding new technology to replace oil soon, and create some initiatives, like not taxing new fuel technology for the first 10 years to allow it to boom. Personally, I feel if they can enhance the hyrdrogen technology, that would be the best route to take - but we need to start replacing the gas stations with hyro ones.

But, to say oil is stupid and we should stop using it and switch is an awful idea. As long as oil is cheaper, it should be used because it would be in the best interest of the consumer. The key is to start collaborating on other ideas now . As for high prices... just remember A.N.W.R. can solve the problem.The United States is already the largest oil producing country in the world...the problem is that the oil we produce costs more to process into usable fuel than oil found in the Middle East. More drilling is not the answer...not to mention the potential damge to the environment and wildlife in Alaska.

It has historically been cheaper for the U.S. to just purchase the oil from the Middle East to process into fuel than it has been for the U.S. to process it's own oil into fuel. However, should the price of oil in the Middle East rise too high, we will simply start processing our own oil when it becomes more economically sound to do so.

Civil war in Saudi Arabia or not, the Middle Eastern countries do not want this, and will keep the price of oil below this threshold that would cause us to consume our own oil. That is what OPEC is all about...they artificially inflate oil prices to reap higher profits, but they also make damn sure the price doesn't go so high that we stop buying oil from the members of OPEC.

Alternate fuel would be an exellent alternative...however, the reason that none are being consumed in mass are that all of them are more expensive than oil at this point, and by quite a bit I might add. As soon as these alternate fuels become cheaper...or at least comprable in price, you will begin to see them in use widely across the U.S.

I have reviewed many studies on this though, and it does not seem like we will be switching to alternate fuels in any signifigant quantities for a long time to come...barring any unforseen technological breakthroughs of course...

[Chewy]

The answer is A.N.W.R. in Alaska. If the congress allows drilling in Alaska, the amount of oil produced would drastically lower prices of gas. This would put more money in our pockets, and potentially allow the government to collect more taxes.

At the same time, the gov't should begin funding new technology to replace oil soon, and create some initiatives, like not taxing new fuel technology for the first 10 years to allow it to boom. Personally, I feel if they can enhance the hyrdrogen technology, that would be the best route to take - but we need to start replacing the gas stations with hyro ones.

But, to say oil is stupid and we should stop using it and switch is an awful idea. As long as oil is cheaper, it should be used because it would be in the best interest of the consumer. The key is to start collaborating on other ideas now . As for high prices... just remember A.N.W.R. can solve the problem. You have no idea what you'll destroying there do you, I suspect you have never stepped foot on that soil and your willing to dismiss its value so you can have some cheaper gas? All I can say is I have been there all over Alaska and anyone that wants to know what the world looked like before man fucked it up should go there too. The wildlife is amazing from the largest free roaming herd of Bison to the mighty Porcupine Caribou Herd. I actually camped in a tent in the artic circle, along the migration of the herd, 130,000 animals migrating is a breathtaking experience.
http://www.conservationgiscenter.org/maps/html/porcupine_herd.html
The most foolish act in the world would be to allow drilling into that refuge. The ecosystem is so delicate that even plant life that’s damaged can take up 200 years to grow back. Any damage serious damage to that area would take a millennium to recover from. For that reason I doubt very highly the G’Wich Nation (or Gwich’N Nation in the US as the Nation borders Alaska and Yukon) would allow it, congress could pass a million bills but it would be up to those people. They are pretty tied to that land they’d never let go of it.

[Asbestos Crayon]

Well, here is a little bit of inside information on this. Texas and Oklahoma put in place the infrastructure back in the 70's to handle just such a situation. I was talking to my father that worked in the pipeline industry back then. He was telling me they laid a lot of lines thin that are still not being used. He said a lot of the oil fields they laid them from were drilled and capped. So if they have kept them up, I would have to say the US southwest is in for a really big oil boom when Saudi goes over the edge. Europe is going to love us too. I suspect we are going to rip them a new one on oil prices when we do open the tap. And as for China, I don't see us selling too much to them. If I were european, I would invest heavily in Russian oil.

Oh, and I drive an SUV. I get 28 mpg which is better than all but compact cars here. I also drive it because there is not enough head room in a normal car for me. It sucks being tall at times. I defantly will never get to drive a sports car. I would look like Richard Kiel in Cannonball run.

[Viceroy]

Oh for goodness sake, stop crying about your bleedin gas prices.

$4 a gallon huh? That's a little over a dollar per litre.

That then works out at 54p per litre. Do you know how much we pay for petrol as a matter of routine in Britain? Somewhere around 80p per litre. That works out as $5.40 per gallon, that's normal for us. You think you're hard done by?

[Sailor_Bob]

Oh for goodness sake, stop crying about your bleedin gas prices.

$4 a gallon huh? That's a little over a dollar per litre.

That then works out at 54p per litre. Do you know how much we pay for petrol as a matter of routine in Britain? Somewhere around 80p per litre. That works out as $5.40 per gallon, that's normal for us. You think you're hard done by?

You probably get better mileage on your tiny European car than I do with my Suburban. I get about 10 miles per gallon, and I live an hour from my college and at least twenty minutes from anything else. How necessary is it for you to have cheap gas, or even a car, in Britain?

[shade]

you can bet gas prices will go up to at least $4.00 a gallon. Unlikely. Saudi Arabia produces 11.5% of the world's oil. I would expect a 20-30% increase in prices if production were shut off from them. It wouldnt be a straight 11.5% increase because oil is a relatively inelastic good. People need it. Therefor, price will rise until Qd falls enough to match the supply available. In other words, it will just screw poor countries and inconvenience developed countries.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/oil_production_0.html

Viceroy, you guys are taxed to hell. That aside, you would still get an increase of 20-30% in your prices. Are you ready?


edit: fixed a typo... inelastic, not nondurable.

[Maverick]

That's nothing, in the UK we pay 81p per litre, which is $1.50.

Converted into gallons and we get: $1.50 per 0.25 gallons roughly.

So, it's $6 per gallon here (bear in mind this is the base rate, and companies often slap a higher charge on to get more profit). The US still has the cheapest petrol prices from anywhere in my knowledge. :o
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-B/ene_gas_pri&int=100
According to this link there are 39 other countries that are cheaper, but we still get it pretty cheap compared to the UK.

[Asbestos Crayon]

Oh for goodness sake, stop crying about your bleedin gas prices.

$4 a gallon huh? That's a little over a dollar per litre.

That then works out at 54p per litre. Do you know how much we pay for petrol as a matter of routine in Britain? Somewhere around 80p per litre. That works out as $5.40 per gallon, that's normal for us. You think you're hard done by?

Yeah, but you guys are heavily invested in public transport already. We on the other hand are not. And if you have ever been to the western US, if you don't have a car, you are screwed.

[vchampionl70]

You have no idea what you'll destroying there do you, I suspect you have never stepped foot on that soil and your willing to dismiss its value so you can have some cheaper gas? All I can say is I have been there all over Alaska and anyone that wants to know what the world looked like before man fucked it up should go there too. The wildlife is amazing from the largest free roaming herd of Bison to the mighty Porcupine Caribou Herd. I actually camped in a tent in the artic circle, along the migration of the herd, 130,000 animals migrating is a breathtaking experience.
http://www.conservationgiscenter.org/maps/html/porcupine_herd.html
The most foolish act in the world would be to allow drilling into that refuge. The ecosystem is so delicate that even plant life that’s damaged can take up 200 years to grow back. Any damage serious damage to that area would take a millennium to recover from. For that reason I doubt very highly the G’Wich Nation (or Gwich’N Nation in the US as the Nation borders Alaska and Yukon) would allow it, congress could pass a million bills but it would be up to those people. They are pretty tied to that land they’d never let go of it.

The new technology we have developed will minimize the amount of ecological damage we will do to the area. I have absolutely no urge to destroy the beauty of Alaska. As a matter of fact, I'm in the middle of a housing boom in NJ, where they are building on every little scrap of green land available and it's disgusting.

But, using the new technique will keep damage minimal while enabling us to use more of our resources. Take a look:

http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g115/oil/4.html

[Chewy]

The new technology we have developed will minimize the amount of ecological damage we will do to the area. I have absolutely no urge to destroy the beauty of Alaska. As a matter of fact, I'm in the middle of a housing boom in NJ, where they are building on every little scrap of green land available and it's disgusting.

But, using the new technique will keep damage minimal while enabling us to use more of our resources. Take a look:

http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g115/oil/4.html

My understanding is that "Bent Pipe" drilling is still far too expensive to pursue as being "viable" right now. Even if they it was there is still the issue of a pipeline, most animals will not cross pipelines, In Alaska they have tried all kinds of tricks, burying it, painting it,raising it. Moose, Bears and Caribou for what ever their reasons won’t cross them. http://www.yukonconservation.org/issues/issuep.html
It also still leaves the issues of G’wichin Nation, if they are opposed you’ll never move them.

[shade]

My understanding is that "Bent Pipe" drilling is still far too expensive to pursue as being "viable" right now. Not according to the professor I had earlier this summer who grew up in Baghdad and lived in South America because his dad was a petroleum engineer.

The class was one of my many computer courses but somehow oil came up. He had a weird accent but I never knew why. Apparently hes been moved around the world quite a lot as a child.

Anyway, he said that we could have zero impact by towing ice blocks to Alaska and sliding them up on the land to the site. They would then bring in the buildings on barges and place them on top of the ice blocks. The ice doesnt melt, so they have a foundation that doesnt harm the environment and will just be melted or crushed when the oil runs out eventually leaving no impact.

They would then use bent pipe drilling to reach all over the area with only one hole (or a couple, but one location). He said they could drill from oil thats like 80 miles away. Maybe it was 8 miles... there was an 8. It was 8 or 80. In any case, that is impressive and seriously reduces impact on the environment.

As far as the caribou, we already have pipelines in Alaska. The caribou that travel through those areas are the largest herds in Alaska because the warmth of the pipes protects the caribou as they migrate. Apparently oil pipelines transport oil at about 130 F which makes a wonderful "winter blanket" for caribou.

[Mace]

Oh for goodness sake, stop crying about your bleedin gas prices.

$4 a gallon huh? That's a little over a dollar per litre.

That then works out at 54p per litre. Do you know how much we pay for petrol as a matter of routine in Britain? Somewhere around 80p per litre. That works out as $5.40 per gallon, that's normal for us. You think you're hard done by?

Yeah but how many gas guzzlers do you guys really drive over there like we do here....hehe. It evens out, haha. Plus, to the best of my knowledge from what I remember (and someone else may have mentioned) you guys also have so many other options for getting around (train, bus, etc). At least where I'm at here in California, having no car means you're SOL basically.

Yeah prices are just hovering barely below $2 here (at that's at Costco who is the cheapest)...if they go up to $4 like you guys are saying, damn that would suck. I found a receipt for gas over a year and a half ago...$1.54/gal...and I was bitching and moaning then...ugh. little did I know :rolleyes:

[Viceroy]

Yeah but how many gas guzzlers do you guys really drive over there like we do here....hehe. It evens out, haha. Plus, to the best of my knowledge from what I remember (and someone else may have mentioned) you guys also have so many other options for getting around (train, bus, etc).

Generally public transport is not of a high enough quality to attract a substantial number of people. The reason trains and buses are used in cities such as London is not so much a matter of personal taste, as a dire necessity.

Cars are still used by the vast majority of people and even running a small one can be expensive at times.

[Wild_Child]

i also have been to alaska many times.....I've camped and fished all along the southern coast...the state of alaska is huge.....HUGE...im talking about crazy land...land where you could get dropped off and vanish!
anyhoo.. if you read some of the props. that some delegate from congress are putting up arnt that intolerable... but dead is right this solution will only postpone the inevitable.. we need solid solutions and we need them world wide! i have a great alternitive fuel site for you guys to check out but ya gotta give me a couple days to find it again.

[shade]

That is why oppose any artificial reduction in oil prices. I dont think we should constantly try to increase production or release oil from our strategic reserves.

All artificial reduction in oil prices does is delay the conversion to alternative fuels, and overrides the free market just like any price control would.

[Chewy]

your joking right?

[shade]

No. Absolutely not. That is exactly how it would be done.

[Chewy]

Anyway, he said that we could have zero impact by towing ice blocks to Alaska and sliding them up on the land to the site.

They would then bring in the buildings on barges and place them on top of the ice blocks. The ice doesnt melt, so they have a foundation that doesnt harm the environment and will just be melted or crushed when the oil runs out eventually leaving no impact.

They would then use bent pipe drilling to reach all over the area with only one hole (or a couple, but one location). He said they could drill from oil thats like 80 miles away. Maybe it was 8 miles... there was an 8. It was 8 or 80. In any case, that is impressive and seriously reduces impact on the environment.A common misconception of anyone who has never been in the artic circle is that there is no land and that the land is covered by a blanket of snow and ice. This is simply not true.
Most the area receives very little snow fall and thaws in the short lived spring. The coastal areas along the Alaska, Yukon, are home to 60 fish species, millions of birds, and several large marine mammals including polar bears, walruses, seals, beluga and gray whales, as well as several endangered species. To simply drag ice black up the beach head would just be the beginning of the damage. The ice black would melt case temperatures in the summer are above freezing. Not to mention that bent pipe drilling is both unproven as in has not been used successfully yet, and has had only two tests to proves its worth the longest drilling was just over 1000 feet after making a 60 degree radius turn. The successful tests have only been in Okalahoma and are highly optimistic considering they have only been done in a “controlled settings”.



As far as the caribou, we already have pipelines in Alaska. The caribou that travel through those areas are the largest herds in Alaska because the warmth of the pipes protects the caribou as they migrate. Apparently oil pipelines transport oil at about 130 F which makes a wonderful "winter blanket" for caribou. This part was what I found the most funny it would have been better if your friend included something in the story with little elves taking a break from Santa’s workshop to feed watercress sandwiches to the caribou before they tuck them in thier warm "blankets". Look at the map of the herd I posted earlier, the herd is no where near the pipelines that currently exist. The caribou that have had to cross near the pipelines are suspected to not cross due to the noise and the vibrations from the pipeline.

[shade]

To simply drag ice black up the beach head would just be the beginning of the damage. The ice black would melt case temperatures in the summer are above freezing. Were talking about drilling at the very northern tip. The reason the ocean is not frozen is because it has salt. Being that you are Canadian, I assume that you know that snow can evaporate without the temperature going below freezing. It is called sublimation.

The successful tests have only been in Okalahoma and are highly optimistic considering they have only been done in a “controlled settings”. Sure glad engineers dont have your optimism.

The caribou that have had to cross near the pipelines are suspected to not cross due to the noise and the vibrations from the pipeline. I suggest you read this in its entirety: http://aurora.ak.blm.gov/npra/sympos/html/paper27.html

The pipe isnt a problem, roads are.

[Asbestos Crayon]

I really don't think we will have to drill in Alaska if we just open the taps here in Texas and Oklahoma. Plus, I think if we explore the gulf more, we will find plenty.

Anwar should be explored and mapped for drilling though just for emergency use. Even with Saudi in the picture, we have a finite amount of oil left. Natural gas and ethenol are good fixes. And, I also know electric is coming on pretty good. I don't think long distance travel will be done by personal vehical much, but most people fly now anyways. I know it is getting just as cheap to do so. I really think what will happen is a change in the transit system itself. Electric for local and petrol for long distance. Hell, if they wire the roads, it will be electric all the way around. Problem then would be electric generation. Would be do coal, natural gas, solar, or nuclear?

If it comes down to a crunch though, you can bet Anwar will be drilled before it's all over with. Just a matter of time.

[bubbles]

08-12-2004 01:36 AM

You have been on this blog for 19 hours straight.
Don't you have some exitonic equations to correct for the world?

[shade]

Anwar should be explored and mapped for drilling though just for emergency use. It takes a few years to set up the drilling. So, if we wanted it for emergency use we would have to start now anyway. But no company is going to commit hundreds of millions of dollars to build an advanced drilling site in Alaska and then just mothball it. So basically, your idea is quite flawed.

[vchampionl70]

That is why oppose any artificial reduction in oil prices. I dont think we should constantly try to increase production or release oil from our strategic reserves.

All artificial reduction in oil prices does is delay the conversion to alternative fuels, and overrides the free market just like any price control would.

Surely you wouldn't want the prices to rise while we are currently developing new technology to replace it. That would just be irresponsible, especially for lower income Americans who have to save up to buy the new car that uses the new technology. :D

We must maintain the status quo while we go through this transition.

[Chewy]

Were talking about drilling at the very northern tip. The reason the ocean is not frozen is because it has salt. I assuming that you mean in the summer time as the ocean will freeze over during the winter time, salt or no salt. Hence the need for Ice breakers clearing shipping routes.


Being that you are Canadian, I assume that you know that snow can evaporate without the temperature going below freezing. It is called sublimation. Yes I have seen ice do the same thing in the arctic creating a dense "dry ice type" fog.


Sure glad engineers dont have your optimism. The trouble was The experiments have only been conducted on a smaller diameter pipe, the coil pipe used is a carbon fibre-epoxy resin drill pipe has displays future befits however it is hardly what would be deemed as reliable or even suitable to experiment with in the North Slope.



I suggest you read this in its entirety: http://aurora.ak.blm.gov/npra/sympos/html/paper27.html

The pipe isnt a problem, roads are.

I again have to disagree, Shade what a novel, thanks for the read… I’ll return the favour one day.

Central Arctic Herd

Since it was first described as a distinct herd in the mid-1970s, the herd grew from about 56,000 caribou to about 23,500 in July 1992, before declining to at least 18,100 by July 1995. In combination with low calf production (particularly by the western segment) in several years in the late 1980s and early 1990s, this decline led to heightened concern about the possible influences of development on caribou demography. It is important to note that, to date, no cause-and-effect relationship has been demonstrated between oil development and the CAH decline (although several lines of inquiry warrant further scrutiny).

Central Arctic Herd last head count was caribou in 2000 at 31, 857. The Central Artic Caribou Herd only travel 1/6 of the square miles the Porcupine caribou herd has to during it’s migration.
http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col227.html


“Caribou moving through oilfields encounter difficulty crossing pipeline road corridors where high-traffic roads (>15 vehicles/hr) are adjacent to pipelines. Experience and research in the oilfields has led to development of effective mitigation to counter such impacts on movements and behavior. Elevation of pipelines to 1.5 m above ground level, separation of pipelines from roads by _100m, traffic control measures, strategic placement of crossing structures (ramps and higher-than-normal pipe), and careful design and layout of infrastructure all have proven effective.”

“Porcupine caribou normally herd in much larger groups than Central Arctic Herd caribou. Studies in the Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk oilfields show that larger groups (100 or more caribou) have difficulty crossing roads and pipes (Smith and Cameron 1985). Groups of several thousand caribou occur throughout the summer in the Porcupine Herd, and from mid-June through July, group sizes in the tens of thousands are common.”
http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/ANWR/anwrcaribouscience.html

Porcupine Caribou Herd, which numbered about 128,000

Seasonal drilling will impact wildlife.
Muskoxen and polar bears occupy the refuge year round


Impacts of ice roads and water usage
http://www.trustees.org/FSWaterUse.htm
Dewatering of streams and lakes, and subsequent loss of scarce, over-wintering areas for fish, due to demand for large quantities of water during exploration and production activities that include the building of ice roads and ice pads. Water is much more limited in the Refuge than in the central or western Arctic.


There is no question that the environmental impact on this fragile eco system would be inevitable. Reading the link you provided many of the papers stated that impact on species was inevitable and only cited one caribou herd that was successful in negotiating the pipelines out of four herds. The repots I have read as well claim that at best there is enough oil in the Reserve to serve the US for 15-50 years. That’s just a guess, however to return those habitats back to their natural state may take 100’s of years. Hardly a fair trade off, especially when the link you provided claimed there was very little studies known about the habitat of some of these animals and were inconclusive as to the damage “seasonal drilling” would do. It is untried and unproven technology. The risk factors are too high to even consider. If drilling begins in the Reserve it would be at the expense of the greatest natural monuments your country will ever have the opportunity to have included in your borders.

[dead]

Generally public transport is not of a high enough quality to attract a substantial number of people. The reason trains and buses are used in cities such as London is not so much a matter of personal taste, as a dire necessity.

Cars are still used by the vast majority of people and even running a small one can be expensive at times.
i am lucky we have so good public transportation in the netherlands because peak oil will be soon now and then they ones who are fucked the most are the poeple wich have the suv and who are living into the suburbs
and you want to know why america has so bad public transport you can say thanks to gm they fucked up the public transport in a early stage.

[shade]

You're joking right champion? If gas prices do not rise, there will be no demand for alternative fuel. If there is no demand, there is only way to develop alternatives, and that is called government spending which is notoriously inefficient. This is the exact kind of situation where the free market can show its strength.

There is no question that the environmental impact on this fragile eco system would be inevitable. Reading the link you provided many of the papers stated that impact on species was inevitable and only cited one caribou herd that was successful in negotiating the pipelines out of four herds. The same article however also shows what we have learned from the first pipelines so we can better accomodate them with a new one.

The repots I have read as well claim that at best there is enough oil in the Reserve to serve the US for 15-50 years. Either number makes it completely worthwhile. And with what we now know about the various wildlife, we can greatly reduce our impact on them.

Hardly a fair trade off, especially when the link you provided claimed there was very little studies known about the habitat of some of these animals and were inconclusive as to the damage “seasonal drilling” would do. It also says that it is inconvlusive if the drilling itself caused the changes in population.

It is untried and unproven technology. The risk factors are too high to even consider. If we were allowed to drill in ANWR, I gurantee you that an oil company will not just run up there and plop experimental equipment in the ground. The lack of tests and development you mention of the new technology is mainly because we have no use for it. If we do have a use for it (allowed to drill in anwr) you will find that the US is quite flexible and will make it work... as long as there is a buck to be made.

If drilling begins in the Reserve it would be at the expense of the greatest natural monuments your country will ever have the opportunity to have included in your borders. I dunno, ide have to disagree. Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Rocky Mountains, Appalacian Mountains, Badlands, Arches, Grand Canyon, beaches, swamplands, forests are all > caribou and ice (4/5s of the year).


Dead: We have almost 300 million people. By physical space you are only a little bigger than New Jersey (one of the baby states of our 50). You only have 16 million people.

It takes the same amount of time to drive the entire length of your coast as it does for me to drive from my college to my home (where my family lives). That is 3-4 hours.

I think it is pretty clear that your demands are no where near ours for transportation. A national "free" public transportation system in the US would cost hundreds of billions of dollars which frankly can be better spent elsewhere. In other words, about the same amount of money as your entire economy. Before you mention per capita, you must realise that the actual distances traveled by such a system would be much greater per person in the US than the Netherlands.

And the fact that your transportation is public in no way buffers you from the affect of rising gas prices. It is not free. It is paid for by your taxes. The Netherlands are not allowed exceed a 3% GDP defecit soon due to your use of the Euro. This means you can either count on your taxes going up, or your service degrading as gas prices increase.

[dead]

There is no question that the environmental impact on this fragile eco system would be inevitable. Reading the link you provided many of the papers stated that impact on species was inevitable and only cited one caribou herd that was successful in negotiating the pipelines out of four herds. The repots I have read as well claim that at best there is enough oil in the Reserve to serve the US for 15-50 years. That’s just a guess, however to return those habitats back to their natural state may take 100’s of years. Hardly a fair trade off, especially when the link you provided claimed there was very little studies known about the habitat of some of these animals and were inconclusive as to the damage “seasonal drilling” would do. It is untried and unproven technology. The risk factors are too high to even consider. If drilling begins in the Reserve it would be at the expense of the greatest natural monuments your country will ever have the opportunity to have included in your borders.
it's said but i think when when we are after the oil peak america will do anything to get that oil.
first off al there is less oil in the middle east than they present


america is tottaly designed to be oil depended your food is grown with oil made pestecide
You drive to your work in car in your heavy fuel using suv.
you must go everywhere with the car because the public transport is bad in america.

http://video.tu-clausthal.de/vortraege/peak-oil/peak-oil.ram

i also read a piece in the newspaper here where a former minister under bush tells that there is less oil in saudi arabia and that the main supply which comes only from under 10 wells and those wells are pretty old (sorry don't know the exact numbers anymore but i thought it where 6 wells and 1970 was the latest discovery) .

[dead]

I really don't think we will have to drill in Alaska if we just open the taps here in Texas and Oklahoma. Plus, I think if we explore the gulf more, we will find plenty.don't think so there have been not much discovery's lately and what has been discovered and the fields that are discovered are smaller each year


Anwar should be explored and mapped for drilling though just for emergency use. Even with Saudi in the picture, we have a finite amount of oil left. Natural gas and ethenol are good fixes. And, I also know electric is coming on pretty good. I don't think long distance travel will be done by personal vehical much, but most people fly now anyways. I know it is getting just as cheap to do so. I really think what will happen is a change in the transit system itself. Electric for local and petrol for long distance. Hell, if they wire the roads, it will be electric all the way around. Problem then would be electric generation. Would be do coal, natural gas, solar, or nuclear?

the emergency will soon come
Do you want to fuck up a whole wildlife park just to drive to macdonalds and eat a mad cow burger.
just ask yourself this qouestion.
and how much feul do you think it takes to fly a plane or do you mean a solar powered plane otherwise a plane cost more feul then to ride with a car
lol your really funny with your happy thoughts but what do you think it cost to change all the cars to electric cars and what do it cost to make all of the wires ?
oil


If it comes down to a crunch though, you can bet Anwar will be drilled before it's all over with. Just a matter of time.
your right there are just to much ignorrant poeple who rather have cheap gas than saving a piece of wildlife or changing their own life to a less oil depended one .

[dead]

Dead: We have almost 300 million people. By physical space you are only a little bigger than New Jersey (one of the baby states of our 50). You only have 16 million people.

It takes the same amount of time to drive the entire length of your coast as it does for me to drive from my college to my home (where my family lives). That is 3-4 hours.

I think it is pretty clear that your demands are no where near ours for transportation. A national "free" public transportation system in the US would cost hundreds of billions of dollars which frankly can be better spent elsewhere. In other words, about the same amount of money as your entire economy. Before you mention per capita, you must realise that the actual distances traveled by such a system would be much greater per person in the US than the Netherlands.

And the fact that your transportation is public in no way buffers you from the affect of rising gas prices. It is not free. It is paid for by your taxes. The Netherlands are not allowed exceed a 3% GDP defecit soon due to your use of the Euro. This means you can either count on your taxes going up, or your service degrading as gas prices increase.
i didn't say whe have free public transportation we still have to buy a ticket
but most town are good covered with public transport.
let's me ask a qouestion do you have public transport in the suburbs ?
do you have trains to almost each city with population above 80.000 ?
i know that the public transport cost also energy but i will do just fine if i am used to use my bicycle as most poeple in the netherlands are .
i don't have a car neither has my mom.
i do all of my traveleling by bicycle or by public transport every thing here can be reached by public transport and a max of 15 min walking.
and if al buses have to leave because of the high gas price i can reach a lot of places just by using the train and my bicycle.

[vchampionl70]

You're joking right champion? If gas prices do not rise, there will be no demand for alternative fuel. If there is no demand, there is only way to develop alternatives, and that is called government spending which is notoriously inefficient. This is the exact kind of situation where the free market can show its strength.

I joke you not. Assuming we increase refining and drilling, and with the help of ANWR and drastically reduce the price of gasoline to pre-2000 days in the 90s, that would be the wiser decision than choosing the more costly, draining, and illogical other approach. Like you say, the free market decides - as long as the price of gasoline is cheaper, the free market chooses to use it. To force alternatives defeats the purpose of a free market Shade; you should know that.

As I said we should be developing alternatives while prices are low. Those alternatives should be offered tax breaks as an incentive to purchase. This would help to create a seemless transition ten or so years from now when the oil truly does begin to run out and high prices are unavoidable. But, since we can avoid high-priced fuels, we should take that approach. It's easier on the consumer, it's better for the low-income americans, and this approach will provide for more secure, proven technology ten years from now when it becomes necessary.

**Oh, and you don't escape from a recession by, in essence, forcing the prices higher by inaction and allowing your citizenry to become poorer and poorer due to higher oil prices.

[IkOnZ]

I am not sure where this was done but, sceintest were able to make fossil fuels from garbage. Not only was it efficient, but it would kill two birds with one stone.

Also these hybrid cars that run on electric sound good to the enviroment, but actually they are worse...the electric part runs on a diesel cell.

From what I read drilling in Alaska, the oil company has a plan that will completely miss the wildlife park up there.

But of course I got all this info talking to a oil tech personally.

[Maverick]

I am not sure where this was done but, sceintest were able to make fossil fuels from garbage. Not only was it efficient, but it would kill two birds with one stone.
I think that was Back to the Future. LOL

Also these hybrid cars that run on electric sound good to the enviroment, but actually they are worse...the electric part runs on a diesel cell.
What is a diesel cell? The hybrid I am looking at is the 2005 Toyota Highlander. It is projected to get about 600 miles to an 11 gallon tank of unleaded gasoline.

[Chewy]

The same article however also shows what we have learned from the first pipelines so we can better accomodate them with a new one.

Pure speculation, too much to gamble. Risk is way too high.

Either number makes it completely worthwhile. And with what we now know about the various wildlife, we can greatly reduce our impact on them.
Again too risky.


It also says that it is inconvlusive if the drilling itself caused the changes in population. Ya that's politics, a year before man comes in the calving gets cut in half?? Hmmm must have been the rainfall that year. Fish and Game employees know where their bread bitter is coming from, they have to be nice.

If we were allowed to drill in ANWR, I gurantee you that an oil company will not just run up there and plop experimental equipment in the ground. The lack of tests and development you mention of the new technology is mainly because we have no use for it. If we do have a use for it (allowed to drill in anwr) you will find that the US is quite flexible and will make it work... as long as there is a buck to be made. Sometime things, things are beyond value. Chasing a buck creates short cuts, take a look at the oil companies records spills are not as uncommon as we would like to wish.


I dunno, ide have to disagree. Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Rocky Mountains, Appalacian Mountains, Badlands, Arches, Grand Canyon, beaches, swamplands, forests are all > caribou and ice (4/5s of the year).
Well I’ve been everywhere you’ve mentioned but the Appalachian Mountains. Utah, Montana, incredible places, The Big Sur, Oregon Coast, breathtaking. El Captiain, very cool. Claqaut Sound, Glacier National Park, Uculet, But the North, hell Alaska, has them all beat. Seems to me you might need a road trip, like I said before if you ever want to see what the world was like before man fucked it up go up there. When you see a heard of 130,000 caribou it affects you. Go there before you suscribe to the concept.

[IkOnZ]

It may have been in Back to the Future...but they actually did it.

The electric fuels the diesel cell in hybrid cars.

[Maverick]

The electric fuels the diesel cell in hybrid cars.
Please explain. I want to make an educated decision about which, if any, hybrid to buy next year.

[shade]

let's me ask a qouestion do you have public transport in the suburbs ? Usually no. Sometimes there are bus stops at major intersections near the suburbs. If I were to walk from my parents' house to the nearest bus stop it would take about 45 minutes. Most people who live in suburbs can afford at least one car.

do you have trains to almost each city with population above 80.000 ? We do have passenger trains, and buses. They are all privately owned companies and offer lower prices than airplane tickets. However, most people drive themselves or use the airplane because the price difference is not worth the reduction in comfort and time (airplane) or convenience and freedom (car).

Assuming we increase refining and drilling, and with the help of ANWR and drastically reduce the price of gasoline to pre-2000 days in the 90s, that would be the wiser decision than choosing the more costly, draining, and illogical other approach. Like you say, the free market decides - as long as the price of gasoline is cheaper, the free market chooses to use it. To force alternatives defeats the purpose of a free market Shade; you should know that. Ok well, allowing us to drill in ANWR is part of the free market. I definately believe that we should drill in ANWR. If private companies want to build more refineries, I am totally in support of them doing it. Until the world is actually low on oil and prices start to rise, we will not have alternative fuels because there will be no (or very little) demand for them until they cost the same or less than oil.

Those alternatives should be offered tax breaks as an incentive to purchase. No they should not. The market should not be influenced by the goals of beurocrats. Tax incentives to promote one action is no different than tax penalties to reduce another action. They are both artificial controls that are exactly behavior modification.

You cant say you support the free market then say you want tax incentives.

I am not sure where this was done but, sceintest were able to make fossil fuels from garbage. Not only was it efficient, but it would kill two birds with one stone. Its not efficient. It takes about 2,000 lbs of garbage to equal one barrel of oil. It can work in major metropolitan areas, but thats about it. And I dont recall how cost effective it was.

Oops, I did leave off Glacier National park (that water tastes good!). I also left off the lava flows and Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico.

Most of Alaska is in fact imaculate. However where they want to drill is really nothing special. Its almost like Ukraine.

Maverick: I hear there is going to be a hybrid version of the Eclipse soon.

[wataba]

Maverick: I hear there is going to be a hybrid version of the Eclipse soon.
so they're actually going to put in production a sporty hybrid car? i wonder how it will do
honda built a prototype hybrid sports car that made around 400hp and was still capable of getting over 40 mpg, unfortunately it probably see production

[dead]

Ok well, allowing us to drill in ANWR is part of the free market. I definately believe that we should drill in ANWR. If private companies want to build more refineries, I am totally in support of them doing it. Until the world is actually low on oil and prices start to rise, we will not have alternative fuels because there will be no (or very little) demand for them until they cost the same or less than oil.

i am just reading a book about peak oil and how long do you think anwr can provide oil for the whole american economy ?
30 years
20 years
10 years
5 years
1 year
6 months

and how long do you think it is from the above numbers please respond shade ?

[Chewy]

i am just reading a book about peak oil and how long do you think anwr can provide oil for the whole american economy ?
30 years
20 years
10 years
5 years
1 year
6 months

and how long do you think it is from the above numbers please respond shade ?
I'll guess at 20 years Dead.

Oh I get worried when you go so long between posts. I mean if half the stuff you post is true you could be a target.

[dead]

I'll guess at 20 years Dead.

Oh I get worried when you go so long between posts. I mean if half the stuff you post is true you could be a target.
a target for what the cia they only like mock poeple like us
yes poeple are killed by the goverment but this are mostly poeple who brings out information or poeple who who have poeple behind them like the poeple in waco,ghandi and many others.
i know that i can be a target but there are so many targets that if they kill al the poeple who believe in conspiracy's they would only create martyrs and that something they don't want to do.
and if so much poeple are being killed poeple start to think and that's the latest thing they want to let the poeple do and it's not the thinking that shade does he is just the excelent nwo sheep he follows them right into his pad he only talks in numbers that are provided by puppets from the nwo.
And if you didn't know they own school perfectly yes you learn but you learn what the nwo wants.
i have a gouestion are most off your qouestions formed they way that they are presented in american army and in the test that was posted on this form with the faults in it ?
what by my view was the most different with some of the test in my country
is that the test are al about facts there was almost no logical thinking in it and that the whole test was just about testing your memory and not your own mind

i have found out many things in the past month i will realise a dvd at the end of the week that will change your world view if you look the movies open minded it's only about the 9/11 attack
i was very busy for 2 weeks buying my precious metal and making this dvd. and there where so many topics about bush kerry that i didn't even want to post here ;)
and i will tell the years when shade post his year so please wait for the answer ;).

[shade]

and how long do you think it is from the above numbers please respond shade ? I have heard 15 to 50 years. That depends on if the oil is sold exclusively to the US, the real amount there, and the future demand.

I also heard a libertarian candidate say 6 weeks. I doubt 6 weeks though. If it was only 6 weeks, you wouldnt have so many oil companies pushing so hard to get to drill there. They certainly seem excited, and I dont think 6 weeks would give them such a hard on.

[dead]

I have heard 15 to 50 years. That depends on if the oil is sold exclusively to the US, the real amount there, and the future demand.

I also heard a libertarian candidate say 6 weeks. I doubt 6 weeks though. If it was only 6 weeks, you wouldnt have so many oil companies pushing so hard to get to drill there. They certainly seem excited, and I dont think 6 weeks would give them such a hard on.
it's 6 months it's really a realy realistic book we already used half of the oil resources on the earth

if you anyone want to read this get it here with bittorrent :
http://conspiracy.hopto.org:6969/torrent.html?info_hash=579e299ff8aa01b9afe42ce79a0 ae939cb4e1f76

some parts are too black in my eyes but to me the general story can happen

[shade]

Well, no offense, but I prefer sources that dont involve the word "conspiracy."

[dead]

Well, no offense, but I prefer sources that dont involve the word "conspiracy."
too bad i prefer not to get mainstream news but i also get it all the time but i am not whining about it when you present a link i just look at the data that is presented and not where it is from ;)
and they reason why this is not presented at the mainstream media is because they rather have to keep poeple ignorant so whe the oil peak will hit poeple are really desperate and just want to do anything to get a little oil.
look how dependent we are on oil.
think about this
what do you want to offer to keep your current standard of living when all of the sudden we are after the oil peak.
these things will invoke:
food will get very expensive
transportation wil get very expensive
massive job loss
poor poeple get disgrunted because they can't buy food anymore

are you prepared to invoke a police state ?
are you prepared to put in a camp (because that's is the only place to get decent food at a decent price) ?

[shade]

and they reason why this is not presented at the mainstream media is because they rather have to keep poeple ignorant so whe the oil peak will hit poeple are really desperate and just want to do anything to get a little oil. But you see, that is counter to logic.

What makes energy companies money? They get money when the cost of a barrel of oil goes up. Just because oil is selling at $46 per barrel does not mean that it costs more to get it out of the ground today than it did 5 years ago. If the goal is for energy corporations to get profit, information that shows the world is running low on oil (like less 20 years left) would do just that. In fact, if ethics did not matter, one would expect energy companies to feed false information showing that the world is almost out of oil, not that we will be fine for quite some time!

If tomorow the headline on the mainstream media was that Exxon believes there is only 6 years of oil left in the world, oil would skyrocket to $100+ per barrel overnight! It would still only cost them $25-35 to get out of the ground and to a refinery though! That is quite a profit margin.

[vchampionl70]

too bad i prefer not to get mainstream news but i also get it all the time but i am not whining about it when you present a link i just look at the data that is presented and not where it is from ;)

And perhaps this is why you are a jackass. Why must everything be a conspiracy?

{In response to tax incentives on new technology} No they should not. The market should not be influenced by the goals of beurocrats. Tax incentives to promote one action is no different than tax penalties to reduce another action. They are both artificial controls that are exactly behavior modification.

You cant say you support the free market then say you want tax incentives.

I politely disagree. In regards to tax increases on tobacco products you are right: it is the gov't infringing on the right of free enterprise. However, concerning fuel which is the basic infrastructure of our country in modern times, it would be irresponsible for the government not to be concerned or to try to encourage new sources.

In the vision of Adam Smith, the government must focus its powers on infrastructure and leave normal business alone. I agree with him and believe it must be applied accordingly to our energy supplies.

[dead]

But you see, that is counter to logic.

What makes energy companies money? They get money when the cost of a barrel of oil goes up. Just because oil is selling at $46 per barrel does not mean that it costs more to get it out of the ground today than it did 5 years ago. If the goal is for energy corporations to get profit, information that shows the world is running low on oil (like less 20 years left) would do just that. In fact, if ethics did not matter, one would expect energy companies to feed false information showing that the world is almost out of oil, not that we will be fine for quite some time!

If tomorow the headline on the mainstream media was that Exxon believes there is only 6 years of oil left in the world, oil would skyrocket to $100+ per barrel overnight! It would still only cost them $25-35 to get out of the ground and to a refinery though! That is quite a profit margin.
oke and who will buy oil when it's hit 100 a barrel ?
will the seek to other resources be fastened or slowered and when poeple use less oil because there are alternatives will that benefit the oil compagny ?

[dead]

And perhaps this is why you are a jackass. Why must everything be a conspiracy?

not everything is a compiracy i don't think this forum is full of goverment agents ;)

[shade]

However, concerning fuel which is the basic infrastructure of our country in modern times, it would be irresponsible for the government not to be concerned or to try to encourage new sources. Well, I am sorry you cant see your hipocrisy. Should the government subsidise hybrid car production too?

[vchampionl70]

Well, I am sorry you cant see your hipocrisy. Should the government subsidise hybrid car production too?

Perhaps to a small degree. But hyrbid cars still utilize the old fuel technology and thus should not be supported like an alternate source.

[shade]

Wow, someone with a conservative revolution slogan saying that we should subsidise businesses where there is not enough demand for them to exist on their own.

You make baby Reagan cry.

[vchampionl70]

Wow, someone with a conservative revolution slogan saying that we should subsidise businesses where there is not enough demand for them to exist on their own.

You make baby Reagan cry.

Ah, I see. Once you begin to hit a barrier in actual debating you resort to attacking their personal philosophy. And I suppose when Mr. Reagan fired all of the airline people that it wasn't considered government intervention in private business huh? He'd very likely support, with Bush I might add, the funding to promote the new technology.

Like I said already, I follow the philosophy of Adam Smith. :D I know this is the liberal thing to say, but perhaps you should have a more openminded approach to things Mr. Shade. See the big picture if you will.

And here's an interesting little article I picked up today concerning ANWR:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129383,00.html

[shade]

Ah, I see. Once you begin to hit a barrier in actual debating you resort to attacking their personal philosophy. No. You claim to be conservative. However you support subsidy. They directly conflict. Perhaps moderate would be a better label for you, or just republican. This isnt a personal attack either, it is a question of your philosophy matching the label you gave yourself.

And I suppose when Mr. Reagan fired all of the airline people that it wasn't considered government intervention in private business huh? Thats when they were government regulated! He deregulated them!

He'd very likely support, with Bush I might add, the funding to promote the new technology. Invoking Bush does not necessarily help. Demand promotes new technology. Necessity promotes new technology. Both would be delayed if you artificially reduce oil prices. Artificially reducing oil prices causing a delay in demand and necessity, while simultaneously subsidising in an attempt to compensate is the very definition of inefficiency.

[vchampionl70]

No. You claim to be conservative. However you support subsidy. They directly conflict. Perhaps moderate would be a better label for you, or just republican.


I am quite conservative in fact. But, like I said, there are certain situations where the government must intervene. I believe this is one, and if I stray momentarily from my conservatism, so be it.

In truth, I am a nationalist who leans conservative. These 'subsidies' will benefit the nation in a much greater capacity than letting things take their course. Unfortunately, to safeguard against the socialist threat that is plaguing our country, you have to also see the point of view of the poorer people living in the United States.

This is where you and I obviously differ. For, if we take your approach, it is quite evident that lower class Americans will suffer, temporarily or not, from high energy prices. Tax benefits will alleviate the high costs, while promoting the new technology and the new infrastructure for our booming economy to grow. Your plan simply ignores the consequences that will happen as a result of diminishing oil supplies, not to mention the insecurity of changing technology down the path. My plan encourages development now, so that in the future, the technology will become more stable and more reliable. Your plan ignores this.

So, if this is not a conservative ideal, so be it. But, this is a realistic ideal, and that is why I'm sticking to it.

[dead]

And here's an interesting little article I picked up today concerning ANWR:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129383,00.html

lol they really need the oil now it's such a mess in iraq but remember it take 7 yeas before a oil field is fully functional.
so the time of cheap oil is over.

[vchampionl70]

lol they really need the oil now it's such a mess in iraq but remember it take 7 yeas before a oil field is fully functional.
so the time of cheap oil is over.

I don't know about your figure. But this helps to prove that we need not waste any time to start the drilling.

[dead]

I don't know about your figure. But this helps to prove that we need not waste any time to start the drilling.
why i think we really need a collapse before poeple wake up and it will only delay the collapse for 6 months max.

[shade]

I am quite conservative in fact. But, like I said, there are certain situations where the government must intervene. I believe this is one, and if I stray momentarily from my conservatism, so be it. Ok that is fine then.

Your plan simply ignores the consequences that will happen as a result of diminishing oil supplies, not to mention the insecurity of changing technology down the path. Well, not really. If people pay $3 per gallon even there will be an immediate increase in demand for hybrid cars at the very least.

[dead]

Well, not really. If people pay $3 per gallon even there will be an immediate increase in demand for hybrid cars at the very least.
do you know how many barrels it will take to make a car i don't can find the number but it was the same number that a car uses in his lifetime.
so the production of hybrid cars will only make matters worse it can be a sollution to addept the small cars that are now already produced and make them suitable for hybrid
but this is not really a sollution it's better to use other means to get to some place that cost less energy.
it's really a big problem and you have to think what is more important to drive or to get food.

[vchampionl70]

do you know how many barrels it will take to make a car i don't can find the number but it was the same number that a car uses in his lifetime.
so the production of hybrid cars will only make matters worse it can be a sollution to addept the small cars that are now already produced and make them suitable for hybrid
but this is not really a sollution it's better to use other means to get to some place that cost less energy.
it's really a big problem and you have to think what is more important to drive or to get food.

The irony is that even if I could speak your language I likely would not be able to understand what you are trying to say. Someone on this site should devote themselves to interpreting your words into an understandable form.

[Chewy]

The irony is that even if I could speak your language I likely would not be able to understand what you are trying to say. Someone on this site should devote themselves to interpreting your words into an understandable form.
I'll do it as it,
what Dead is suggesting is that the consumption of Petroleum is pretty high in creating Hybrid vehicles, this maybe due impart to the vehicles high use of Plastics. Then you have all the R&D, the re-tooling of equipment so forth. Dead is implying that by using already existing technology’s and manufacturing smaller vehicles would be a better alternative.
If you need anymore help vchampionl70 let me know, that should help you in discrediting his arguments not his person.

[vchampionl70]

I'll do it as it,
what Dead is suggesting is that the consumption of Petroleum is pretty high in creating Hybrid vehicles, this maybe due impart to the vehicles high use of Plastics. Then you have all the R&D, the re-tooling of equipment so forth. Dead is implying that by using already existing technology’s and manufacturing smaller vehicles would be a better alternative.
If you need anymore help vchampionl70 let me know, that should help you in discrediting his arguments not his person.

Thanks for the help, for it is a bit clearer to me. I do agree that we must continue to use existing technologies, and understand how smaller vehicles would reduce the consumption rate. This only delays what will ultimately happen anyway though. Perhaps Dead would care to address alternate fuels and technologies.

As for discrediting his person... I never have discredited his person. I just told the readers many times my opinion of the man. My opinion has no factual basis. The fact that I find him difficult to understand, however, if far different than discrediting him as a person. His English is not up to par, and thus makes him difficult to interpret at times.

Now, Chewy, if only you Canadians would help us to interpret what our new Mexican population is saying...

[Chewy]

Now, Chewy, if only you Canadians would help us to interpret what our new Mexican population is saying... NP there are saying time to make Spanish our second official language.

[dead]

Thanks for the help, for it is a bit clearer to me. I do agree that we must continue to use existing technologies, and understand how smaller vehicles would reduce the consumption rate. This only delays what will ultimately happen anyway though. Perhaps Dead would care to address alternate fuels and technologies.

As for discrediting his person... I never have discredited his person. I just told the readers many times my opinion of the man. My opinion has no factual basis. The fact that I find him difficult to understand, however, if far different than discrediting him as a person. His English is not up to par, and thus makes him difficult to interpret at times.

Now, Chewy, if only you Canadians would help us to interpret what our new Mexican population is saying...
oke i will ask you something why is the oil price so high ?
do you think this is because of the crisis in iraq or just because the oil production is simply less than the consumption they say a lot of shit in the news.
look also at the euro dollar ratio.
the crash is near i am waiting for the next terrorist attack that change america in a police state.

[porschecrazy]

idea 1 stop using the suv in america that will save you a whole lot of oil use smaller cars instead.
idea 2 stop the airconditining it use a whole lot off energy.
idea 3 let manufacturers put less plastic in their product material.
and for a.n.w.r. it will only help for a short time to lower the prices it's never enough to support the whole american oil society.
also for hydrogen how do you make this what is needed to make hydrogen ?
energy
it isn't a feul it's just a energy holder like a battery
it cost more energy to make hydrogen then it produce.
and i would never be enough to support the whole american ecenomy
and what do you think that is needed to make hydrogen cars ?
oil
sorry that i have ruined you nice dream but just look around almost everything you use is made of oil.

well u know it not as easy as it sounds like
the problem is people like these big expensive gas guzzling machines. what shoud be done is make smaller cars out her like in europe. There smaller in size and in the engine but they still got quite a bit of power because of the high octane fuel they use but what u said about everything is made out of oil is true the govt likes it like that because they makeing the most money out of it.

[pidgeball6]

Originally Posted by dead
idea 1 stop using the suv in america that will save you a whole lot of oil use smaller cars instead.
idea 2 stop the airconditining it use a whole lot off energy.
idea 3 let manufacturers put less plastic in their product material.
and for a.n.w.r. it will only help for a short time to lower the prices it's never enough to support the whole american oil society.
also for hydrogen how do you make this what is needed to make hydrogen ?
energy
it isn't a feul it's just a energy holder like a battery
it cost more energy to make hydrogen then it produce.
and i would never be enough to support the whole american ecenomy
and what do you think that is needed to make hydrogen cars ?
oil
sorry that i have ruined you nice dream but just look around almost everything you use is made of oil.

I don't know how I missed this when it first got posted, but it begs a response.
1) I agree with Dead, that's where we part company.

2) Being an HVAC contractor, I have to respond here. Heating, ventilation, and airconditioning do consume energy, so does a hospital, that's no reason to eliminate them. If you want to imagine the world without them, you can start by turning off your computer. It wouldn't exist without the 'clean rooms' required to make your processor. Next eliminate space exploration, because without temperature control it doesn't exist. You also need to consider that without them, the population could not be widely distributed to areas that require a/c or heating, so pack everyone into the climates that don't require them. Also, think about things like transatlantic flight and massive cruise ships. They couldn't accomodate the numbers they do without climate control, so there operating costs go up dramatically, meaning your costs go up dramatically. Consider food storage as we know it. It's impossible to deliver the amount of food the public consumes without refrigeration. Removing it restricts the mount of commerce in that industry, jacking your costs up again. Geez, I could go on all day with the HVAC argument, but I hope these examples are enough to let you know that the world we live in doesn't work without climate control.

3) Hydrogen technology. Ironically, I watched a show on it yesterday (PBS Scientific America). Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it just isn't found in a pure form on earth. There are numerous ways to produce it, including petroleum, but the benefit is that it can be produced from replinishable (green) energy in a number of ways like solar and wind energy. My favorite method is being studied now, using algae. When science develops some of these ways to produce green hydrogen,which they are, then the automotive industry can focus even more resources towards the development of hydrogen vehicles.
http://www.bionik.tu-berlin.de/institut/xs2solar
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/index.html
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/segments/1403-3.htm

[dead]

.

2) Being an HVAC contractor, I have to respond here. Heating, ventilation, and airconditioning do consume energy, so does a hospital, that's no reason to eliminate them. If you want to imagine the world without them, you can start by turning off your computer. It wouldn't exist without the 'clean rooms' required to make your processor. Next eliminate space exploration, because without temperature control it doesn't exist. You also need to consider that without them, the population could not be widely distributed to areas that require a/c or heating, so pack everyone into the climates that don't require them. Also, think about things like transatlantic flight and massive cruise ships. They couldn't accomodate the numbers they do without climate control, so there operating costs go up dramatically, meaning your costs go up dramatically. Consider food storage as we know it. It's impossible to deliver the amount of food the public consumes without refrigeration. Removing it restricts the mount of commerce in that industry, jacking your costs up again. Geez, I could go on all day with the HVAC argument, but I hope these examples are enough to let you know that the world we live in doesn't work without climate control.


i am not calling to put out all of the clean rooms i was refering to the airco's that are used in every days live i am refering to poeple who live and work in aircondition buildings
you as a hvac contractor should know how much time more energy is used by a air condition compared to a normal fan.
and about the distributation off poeple why the hell do poeple live in las vegas that is the energy waste city of the world.
in someplaces poeple don't have to live why are you living in a desert where there are no energy sources or water.
i am just suggesting you should use a normal fan and just drink more water when it's a hot day instead off putting the airco on .


.
3) Hydrogen technology. Ironically, I watched a show on it yesterday (PBS Scientific America). Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it just isn't found in a pure form on earth. There are numerous ways to produce it, including petroleum, but the benefit is that it can be produced from replinishable (green) energy in a number of ways like solar and wind energy. My favorite method is being studied now, using algae. When science develops some of these ways to produce green hydrogen,which they are, then the automotive industry can focus even more resources towards the development of hydrogen vehicles.
http://www.bionik.tu-berlin.de/institut/xs2solar
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/index.html
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/segments/1403-3.htm


when it use algae it could be a new energy otherwise it's a energy storage and not a source and for the ideas just do a google on oil peak and you will find a lot more

but the truth is we getting behind the peak of oil production if we are not already.
and the time of cheap oil is over and there is no energy source which can provide as much energy as oil.

[pidgeball6]

i am not calling to put out all of the clean rooms i was refering to the airco's that are used in every days live i am refering to poeple who live and work in aircondition buildings
you as a hvac contractor should know how much time more energy is used by a air condition compared to a normal fan.
and about the distributation off poeple why the hell do poeple live in las vegas that is the energy waste city of the world.
in someplaces poeple don't have to live why are you living in a desert where there are no energy sources or water.
i am just suggesting you should use a normal fan and just drink more water when it's a hot day instead off putting the airco on .

Calling for an end to people working in air conditioned buildings is about the same as calling for and end to eating food. I live in Houston, Texas, the a/c capitol of the world (close). My wife works in a 20 floor office building near downtown. This is a smaller office builing by most standards, yet when the a/c is out of service (twice in ten years) the building is evacuated. Going without it is not an option. period.
As far as living in an area that requires climate control, I can't speak for all of them, but I was born and raised in one, I have a history here that goes back to the '40's, my friends and family live here. Suggesting that we abandon these areas due to the extreme climate isn't feasible at this point. The idea reminds me of the movie 'The Mailman', heh. My business involves creating high efficiency solutions to air conditioning requirements.

when it use algae it could be a new energy otherwise it's a energy storage and not a source and for the ideas just do a google on oil peak and you will find a lot more

but the truth is we getting behind the peak of oil production if we are not already.
and the time of cheap oil is over and there is no energy source which can provide as much energy as oil.

The solution will come, I don't have any doubt. The world will worry about it in the 11th hour, I'm sure, but it will be adressed in my lifetime. Hell, America dealt with Polio for a long time but a cure wasn't found until the president had it. Salk injected himself with it, ensuring his efforts to find the cure were succesful.

[Chewy]

Pidge there is alternate cooling systems.
cool (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/08/18/588566.html)

[dead]

Calling for an end to people working in air conditioned buildings is about the same as calling for and end to eating food. I live in Houston, Texas, the a/c capitol of the world (close). My wife works in a 20 floor office building near downtown. This is a smaller office builing by most standards, yet when the a/c is out of service (twice in ten years) the building is evacuated. Going without it is not an option. period.
As far as living in an area that requires climate control, I can't speak for all of them, but I was born and raised in one, I have a history here that goes back to the '40's, my friends and family live here. Suggesting that we abandon these areas due to the extreme climate isn't feasible at this point. The idea reminds me of the movie 'The Mailman', heh. My business involves creating high efficiency solutions to air conditioning requirements.
i know airconditioning is a good sullotion when the energy prices are low.
but when the energy prices go up you would be glad you had that low energy fan.
so why not start today and make your live less oil depended so that they shock will hit you less.



The solution will come, I don't have any doubt. The world will worry about it in the 11th hour, I'm sure, but it will be adressed in my lifetime. Hell, America dealt with Polio for a long time but a cure wasn't found until the president had it. Salk injected himself with it, ensuring his efforts to find the cure were succesful.how do you know the solution will come i have all the facts that oil can't be replaced as cheap feul
yes it can be replaced but not by something that is the same price as oil or delevire the same amount of energy.
yes nuclear power has more energy but the shock will hit before 2010 i don't think they can build nuclear reactors fast nough to replace the depleting oil.
and i think the we are after the peak look how desperate they want to drill in anwr and the experts say that this is only a small oil field.
I don't think the high oil prices has anything to do with iraq iraq provide at full capacity
here you see indonesia is already after the peak i think that is one off the reasons but i also think they manipulate this data look at the production with some coontry 5 months off the same production rate
wow i just saw the production peak off saudi arabia look at the data with saudi arabia you can clearly see the peak
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/ipsr/t11a.xls
and about the hydrogen car it will first need much oil to make it.
yes some poeple are able to live the live the have lived before the cheap oil
why do you think bush his farm uses solar energy and is completely energy independent.
als cheney has such a house.
but when you know when you are being fucked by the goverment because you are fighting for little scraps of food.
please pay a visit to bush or cheney his house and finish them off ;)

[dead]

Pidge there is alternate cooling systems.
cool (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/08/18/588566.html)
nice project

[pidgeball6]

Pidge there is alternate cooling systems.
cool (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/08/18/588566.html)

Don't know much about that project Chewy, but it looks like a submerged condenser. The heat that is absorbed inside the climate controlled areas is more easily discharged to the cool water. It is a nice set up if you are in an area that has the right conditions for one, but if not then the start up costs aren't practical, especially for residential applications. It's in the same "family" of air conditioning that we traditionally know, it's just a bit of a novelty. Some questions that should be asked before implementing a system like that are; start up costs? Maintenance costs? Repair costs? Ecological side effects? Life expectancy? Comparable performance? And if weather conditions can become a factor (I'm not sure just how frozen your lakes get up there or if storms get too feirce).

There are other means to deliver climate control more efficiently like through a ground coil (much like the submerged) and solar panels, the problems people run into most are the availability of repair parts and someone to service them. Sometimes, down here at least, a back ordered part that should arrive in three to six weeks won't do. Overall though, a shift towards that type of technology would be sweet for everyone, including me.

[pidgeball6]

Oh yeah, sorry Dead, forgot to respond to yours.
I am not worried about the shock of waking up tomorrow and finding out there is no oil in the world. It's an impossibility, but even if it did happen, I'd pack it in and handle mine, you know. I guess I consume about the same amount of oil as the next guy (American), but if push came to shove what are you going to do but deal with it? It doesn't make sense to get upset over the things that you can't make happen yet, and there's a bit of difference consuming less, and becoming an etremist.

Also, why do you have to use the oil shortage problem (as you see it ) to bash Bush and Cheney? They have absolutely nothing more to do with peak oil, or the consumption rate than you or I do. Hell if you wanted to bash a single person for it, hammer Kerry, he has 5 houses. I believe they sold the estate in France though.

[dead]

Oh yeah, sorry Dead, forgot to respond to yours.
I am not worried about the shock of waking up tomorrow and finding out there is no oil in the world. It's an impossibility, but even if it did happen, I'd pack it in and handle mine, you know. I guess I consume about the same amount of oil as the next guy (American), but if push came to shove what are you going to do but deal with it? It doesn't make sense to get upset over the things that you can't make happen yet, and there's a bit of difference consuming less, and becoming an etremist.
i am not a extremist i am preparing myself and i am not upset i am excited;).
i have half of my money invested in gold and silver.
when the crash comes i am better prepared than the average citizen.
but the crash will not hit the netherlands that hard in comparising to usa.
you are using way more oil.


Also, why do you have to use the oil shortage problem (as you see it ) to bash Bush and Cheney? They have absolutely nothing more to do with peak oil, or the consumption rate than you or I do. Hell if you wanted to bash a single person for it, hammer Kerry, he has 5 houses. I believe they sold the estate in France though.
i bash every nwo puppet but i don't know if kerry has a feul independent house.
if you know i will bash him to ;)
they are prepared for the peak they can live comfortably when electricity falls out.
i don't ment that they use much of the oil i only ment that bush is prepared for a bumpy ride

hey you didn't even comment on the data that i found that clearly showed that saudi arabia has passed his peak
and 5 opec country's are producing the same amount of oil 5 months in a row

[patriotwarrior7]

man i swear if it goes any higher my head will expode