Blackwater purchasing fighter jets?

[Methuser]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361322,00.html

What's going on in this world?
SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) — Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer is participating in preliminary negotiations to sell the U.S. government eight 314-B1 Super Tucano light attack and training planes for use in Iraq, the company said Monday.

Embraer also confirmed that it sold one of the propeller-driven planes to a subsidiary of Blackwater Worldwide, the world's largest security contractor and the target of harsh criticism for its conduct in Iraq.

The plane maker is offering Washington the Super Tucano in a tender process opened by the U.S. government, according to an Embraer spokesman who declined to be named in keeping with company policy.

Embraer, or Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica SA, has sold 99 of the planes to the Brazilian military and 25 to neighboring Colombia's air force — mostly to fight drug trafficking along the countries' Amazon border, the spokesman said.

A light fighter like the Super Tucano — which the Brazilian military outfits with .50-caliber machine guns under each wing — could be used to patrol Iraq's borders with Iran and Syria, where the U.S. military says militants and weapons are routinely smuggled.

The U.S. has provided small planes before to the nascent Iraqi air force, which has about 1,500 personnel and 50 aircraft — mostly small propeller planes and helicopters.

The Embraer spokesman confirmed the sale of a Super Tucano to Blackwater subsidiary EP Aviation.

Brazilian law prohibits a private company from selling arms for use in existing conflicts, but the spokesman said the plane was not shipped with any armaments and was intended for training purposes in the U.S.

If the U.S. government decides to buy the Tucano from Embraer and requests that they be outfitted with weapons, at that point the Brazilian government would have to step in and negotiate the sale, the Embraer spokesman said.

Neither the foreign or defense ministries would comment on that assertion.

The plane sold to EP Aviation was bought for US$4.5 million and delivered at the end of February. Records on the Web site of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration confirmed that EP Aviation had registered a Super Tucano.

Blackwater, the largest private security company in the world, has been under scrutiny as a U.S. federal grand jury investigates its involvement in the shooting deaths of 17 Iraqi civilians. Blackwater also is under investigation for possible weapons smuggling allegations — accusations the company denies.

[Jay-Z]

Ya think private companies could one day become so powerful they could battle with sovereign nations?

[Dayve]

Yay, now they can murder civilians and act like assholes from the sky too.

[MelL]

Ya think private companies could one day become so powerful they could battle with sovereign nations?

Sounds like something from Cyberpunk 2020, if there are any old-school pen and paper role-players about. But yeah, a company like Blackwater seems like they would have the ability to take on a government in a country like, say, Haiti or Bermuda, someplace small.

[Face Plant]

Ya think private companies could one day become so powerful they could battle with sovereign nations?

They already do, just look up the names Simon Mann and Bob Denard. Denard is dead and Mann is looking at life in prison, but mercs are doing this shit all the time.

[KeyboardPatriot]

It's a fucking turboprop aircraft. It's not like they are going to be flying F-16's. The Super Tucano is a piece of shit, they're just going to get shot down by a shitload of stingers because the thing is slow as fuck.

[chalupa]

It's a fucking turboprop aircraft. It's not like they are going to be flying F-16's. The Super Tucano is a piece of shit, they're just going to get shot down by a shitload of stingers because the thing is slow as fuck.

Well fuck then, let Blackwater arm up! They should get old P-51's because they are slow as shit and can't hurt anyone! What with no oversight, I see no way this would be a problem.

[jn_powell]

It's a fucking turboprop aircraft. It's not like they are going to be flying F-16's. The Super Tucano is a piece of shit, they're just going to get shot down by a shitload of stingers because the thing is slow as fuck.
Well it is not really that slow but the point is taken. it will still do upwards of 350MPH and is pretty maneuverable. My biggest concern has nothing to do with Blackwater's subsidiary buying a single crappy training plane but more with why in the hell the U.S. government would use this piece of shit in Iraq. Not that the plane is that bad, but there are certainly better alternatives I would think.
Well fuck then, let Blackwater arm up! They should get old P-51's because they are slow as shit and can't hurt anyone! What with no oversight, I see no way this would be a problem.
Easy there big guy, it's one plane with no weapons installed. It's not a big deal.

[Liberator13]

Erik Prince's whole plan is to have an air support wing. Not to go jet-on-jet, but as close air support for his ground troops.

[chalupa]

Easy there big guy, it's one plane with no weapons installed. It's not a big deal.

Blackwater certainly doesn't have access to weapons. :squint:

[jn_powell]

Blackwater certainly doesn't have access to weapons. :squint:
Exactly and they also have a fucking fleet of aircraft, all of which they could equip with weapons, which is why this is not a big fucking deal. I can go buy and aero-trader magazine (which I do every month) and buy old military trainer jets, not props, if I had the money, all of which could be fitted with weapons if I had the resources. This is not a big deal at all. No weapons were sold, just an aircraft....and a shitty one at that.

[chalupa]

Exactly and they also have a fucking fleet of aircraft, all of which they could equip with weapons, which is why this is not a big fucking deal. I can go buy and aero-trader magazine (which I do every month) and buy old military trainer jets, not props, if I had the money, all of which could be fitted with weapons if I had the resources. This is not a big deal at all. No weapons were sold, just an aircraft....and a shitty one at that.

I guess I'm not worried about this deal, either. I'm worried about Blackwater in general.

[jn_powell]

I guess I'm not worried about this deal, either. I'm worried about Blackwater in general.
I understand people's issue with Blackwater and I certainly am not defending their actions or the use of them in general in Iraq but I just don't find this particular issue to be one of much importance in the big picture.

[chalupa]

Probably because now an outside arms technology supplier is linked to them...somehow it feels like this connection puts them even further outside public scrutiny.

[kevinsmith]

I didn't know what to expect, but the aircraft looks like a modern day jet fighter only it's a turboprop. Probably pretty good for close air support like the Sandys in Vietnam.
That said...you gotta wonder about Blackwater. This is ominous. Could make good video game fodder though. lol. Blackwater, once supported by the US, has no amassed it's own army made up of former US enemies and it taking on the onetime master. Only one soldier can stop them....

[chalupa]

I didn't know what to expect, but the aircraft looks like a modern day jet fighter only it's a turboprop. Probably pretty good for close air support like the Sandys in Vietnam.
That said...you gotta wonder about Blackwater. This is ominous. Could make good video game fodder though. lol. Blackwater, once supported by the US, has no amassed it's own army made up of former US enemies and it taking on the onetime master. Only one soldier can stop them....

...and then they post a pic of kevinsmith.

Turns out it is a comedy.

(ZING!)

[shade]

Don't you pinkos believe in the 2nd amendment? :)

[Liberator13]

I didn't know what to expect, but the aircraft looks like a modern day jet fighter only it's a turboprop. Probably pretty good for close air support like the Sandys in Vietnam.
That said...you gotta wonder about Blackwater. This is ominous. Could make good video game fodder though. lol. Blackwater, once supported by the US, has no amassed it's own army made up of former US enemies and it taking on the onetime master. Only one soldier can stop them....

Tom Clancy's HAWX, due out fall/winter.

Aerial combat, Private Military vs. US.

[xtwistedx]

yea if it was an old EA-6 i or F-4 i might be a lil concerned. but an unarmed propellar plane just really doesnt worry me. so they can put 2 .50cals on the wings... big god damn deal. aint like they can carry a heavy payload.

[Papero]

Blackwater is bad ass, we need to give them nukularz bombs.

[MelL]

It makes for some other interesting questions, though. For instance, as I recall, aircraft are supposed to be moved out of the area if an artillery fire mission is called. Would Blackwater have to register their flights ahead of time? Would it be with the local American commanders, if so? Would the American commanders have the authority to tell them to move out for a fire mission to go through? What about Iraqi Army commanders?

And imagine the possibilities for 'incidents.' If Blackwater has been implicated in civilians being killed by their guys on the ground, imagine a relatively fast-moving aircraft with heavy weapons strapped on entering the equation.

So much food for thought! :)

[EVO_9MR]

so instead of 70 "accidental" deaths, they can now have up to several hundred or a thousand.

[jn_powell]

Jump to ridiculous conclusions much people? This is a training aircraft without weapons systems. Nowhere does it state or insinuate this aircraft under Blackwater ownership will be anywhere in or around Iraq.

[MashTorrance]

War, has changed....*cue mgs4 intro theme*

[kevinsmith]

Tom Clancy's HAWX, due out fall/winter.

Aerial combat, Private Military vs. US.

Good! I need a good flight sim...there haven't been any that I've seen for some time.

...and then they post a pic of kevinsmith.

Turns out it is a comedy.

(ZING!)

I'd watch it.

[chalupa]

Good! I need a good flight sim...there haven't been any that I've seen for some time.



I'd watch it.

Yeah, because in those movies, the female lead is always WAY disproportionately hotter than the male. Go you!

[kevinsmith]

Yeah, because in those movies, the female lead is always WAY disproportionately hotter than the male. Go you!

And they use actors nearing their 30's to play high school students. I'm perfect for the role.

[Nocturnal]

It's only a matter of time that they use or receive permission to use aircraft for their missions.

And they use actors nearing their 30's to play high school students. I'm perfect for the role.

Do we have to watch you have sex with a pie? Because if so.... fap fap fap

[GhostJang]

Why is it even legal for mercenary companies to handle some of the jobs they get?

[Nocturnal]

Why is it even legal for mercenary companies to handle some of the jobs they get?

US law allows them to operate in Iraq.

[jn_powell]

It's only a matter of time that they use or receive permission to use aircraft for their missions.



Do we have to watch you have sex with a pie? Because if so.... fap fap fap
Source? I didn't think so. Until this actually happens I will continue to say you are all jumping to ridiculous conclusions. Not that they will not be able to utilize aircraft, but armed aircraft is not going to happen.

[GhostJang]

US law allows them to operate in Iraq.

Well, yea but it just doesn't seem right to me.

[danman]

If this is true can they fire when they are really suppose to be fired upon but fire before it gets to that point?

[Nocturnal]

Source? I didn't think so. Until this actually happens I will continue to say you are all jumping to ridiculous conclusions. Not that they will not be able to utilize aircraft, but armed aircraft is not going to happen.

It's a logical progression. Purely speculation on my part, but our increasing reliance on mercs suggests this.

[jn_powell]

It's a logical progression. Purely speculation on my part, but our increasing reliance on mercs suggests this.
Nothing suggests allowing them to have any control of the skies with armed aircraft. On top of that the insistance that this aircraft is for training purposes only give you nothing on which to base you speculation. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[Liberator13]

It makes for some other interesting questions, though. For instance, as I recall, aircraft are supposed to be moved out of the area if an artillery fire mission is called. Would Blackwater have to register their flights ahead of time? Would it be with the local American commanders, if so? Would the American commanders have the authority to tell them to move out for a fire mission to go through? What about Iraqi Army commanders?

And imagine the possibilities for 'incidents.' If Blackwater has been implicated in civilians being killed by their guys on the ground, imagine a relatively fast-moving aircraft with heavy weapons strapped on entering the equation.

So much food for thought! :)

While I only go on interviews from him Erik Prince's goal is to have Blackwater as a "fourth arm" (??) to the current military. He wants former-SF people to come to them when their contracts are done, and he does more training at his huge facility. He doesn't want to be in true competition with the military - though it would obviously happen - he wants to be a more trained ally.

[chalupa]

While I only go on interviews from him Erik Prince's goal is to have Blackwater as a "fourth arm" (??) to the current military. He wants former-SF people to come to them when their contracts are done, and he does more training at his huge facility. He doesn't want to be in true competition with the military - though it would obviously happen - he wants to be a more trained ally.

The Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines...and Blackwater.

Oh yeah, I'm all for that.

[Liberator13]

The Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines...and Blackwater.

Oh yeah, I'm all for that.

I'm interested. I really am. It would mean MUCH heavier regulations, because they would be part of the government. It would also mean that Blackwater operators wouldn't have to use the military's standard issue weapons, which is good. I just can't see Blackwater going away anytime soon, so it may be a decent option if they can get it done the right way. The military/SOCOM would HATE it though.

[MelL]

Nothing suggests allowing them to have any control of the skies with armed aircraft. On top of that the insistance that this aircraft is for training purposes only give you nothing on which to base you speculation. Agree to disagree I suppose.


Given their alleged involvement in the shooting deaths of civilians and arms smuggling, I think I'll take their insistence with a grain of salt. It may be true, they may be for training purposes only. But with the amount of leeway they have had in the past as far as being a civilian outfit, an *armed* civilian outfit, with the authority to shoot-to-kill in a war zone, it is not hard to imagine their capabilities evolving to include armed aircraft in Iraq.

[jn_powell]

Given their alleged involvement in the shooting deaths of civilians and arms smuggling, I think I'll take their insistence with a grain of salt. It may be true, they may be for training purposes only. But with the amount of leeway they have had in the past as far as being a civilian outfit, an *armed* civilian outfit, with the authority to shoot-to-kill in a war zone, it is not hard to imagine their capabilities evolving to include armed aircraft in Iraq.
The best part of your post is the word imagine. While I mean no disrespect to any of you I really think using a simple purchase of a training aircraft is making a huge mountain out of a tiny mole hill. Does Blackwater have a shady history, yes, however there is absolutely nothing shady about purchasing one crappy turbo prop training aircraft. Like I said in an earlier post you can buy jet trainer aircraft, which a company could easily outfit with weapons if they had the resources, through aero-trader magazine. Why go to the trouble to build a dangerous fleet of these pieces of shit by paying ridiculous prices to a foreign government under intense public scrutiny?

[MelL]

The best part of your post is the word imagine. While I mean no disrespect to any of you I really think using a simple purchase of a training aircraft is making a huge mountain out of a tiny mole hill. Does Blackwater have a shady history, yes, however there is absolutely nothing shady about purchasing one crappy turbo prop training aircraft. Like I said in an earlier post you can buy jet trainer aircraft, which a company could easily outfit with weapons if they had the resources, through aero-trader magazine. Why go to the trouble to build a dangerous fleet of these pieces of shit by paying ridiculous prices to a foreign government under intense public scrutiny?


We did use prop-planes as late as Vietnam, so they can't be *that* crappy. lol Like I said, it very well could be a non-issue. However, given the company's past, anything is possible.

[bergshadow]

I would guess they also have an eye on foreign governments and parties, as clients.

And support missions for the US - flying planes around for repair and maintenance, transport ot theater, etc.

I don't think many Americans realize how much of the US military is already contracted, and how much more could be according to Blackwater's business model.

[DarkTalon]

I don't think we'll ever have a completely private military. it would be near impossible to privatize the air force or navy.