McCain's $300 million idea

[theC]

From CNN:

(CNN) -- Sen. John McCain on Monday called for a $300 million prize to whoever can develop a battery that will "leapfrog" the abilities of current hybrid and electric cars.
Sen. John McCain wants someone to develop a battery that can "leapfrog" those available in current electric cars.

Citing high oil prices, the Republican presidential candidate said he wants his offer to "deliver a power source at 30 percent of the current costs."

"[The prize would amount to] $1 for every man, woman and child in the U.S. -- a small price to pay for helping to break the back of our oil dependency," McCain said during a town hall-style meeting at California's Fresno State University.

McCain said the new automobile battery should have "the size, capacity, cost and power to leapfrog the commercially available plug-in hybrids or electric cars."

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/23/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=newssearch

I'm actually all for this and contests of this type. It spurs innovation and provides intensives for companies and individuals that aren't well established to take the initiative and start working away on their ideas. Prizes like this have been successful in the past (The Orteig Prize for the first non-stop transatlantic flight, won by Charles Lindbergh, the Ansari X-Prize for the first privately built manned spacecraft, won by Scaled Composites, and the Google-lunar X-Prize, to be awarded to the first privately built lunar rover), although those prizes were privately funded.

Anyway, I don't think that this is by any means a total solution to America's energy problems, it is a good idea that should be included among others. And while I prefer Obama to McCain, I think McCain is on to something with this and I dismiss Obama's campaign calling this a gimmick.

Thoughts?

[Methuser]

"Hey look I won the contest with this free energy machine!"

mysteriously dies from heart attack two weeks later while random scientists "debunk" his machine.


j/k

P.S. I want some intensives!:boink:

[wluprocks]

I think that it is a good idea, but I cant trust the GOP to deliver on any promises they are making...

[Methuser]

I think that it is a good idea, but I cant trust the GOP to deliver on any promises they are making...

Sure you can dude! In 2004 they promised us 4 more years of the same and they gave us that and an extra helping.

I'm looking forward to four more years!!

FOUR MORE YEARS!!

FOUR MORE YEARS!!

fOUR MORE YEARS!!

[rebeldave]

I agree. These kind of things work. If $10 million was enough to get a privately built manned spacecraft, just imagine the kind of attention $300 million would get for new fuel sources. The X Prize Foundation already has a $10 million prize for a viable, clean, super efficient car that people will want to buy, so the government getting involved in this type of endeavor would be a very good step.

[shade]

McCain = liberal.

Government is not the answer.

As the prices go up, it will naturally fix itself in the free market.

[72 pet chicken]

As the prices go up, it will naturally fix itself in the free market.

prices have been going up for over 8 years. how much longer do you suppose we wait till the free market fixes itself?

regarding mccains plan... even if some company successfully creates this super battery hes talking about, it still wont help the people who are most effected by gas prices.

if middle income families are having trouble making ends meet because of gas prices, what makes him think the family can just run out and buy a new car?

[rebeldave]

prices have been going up for over 8 years. how much longer do you suppose we wait till the free market fixes itself?

regarding mccains plan... even if some company successfully creates this super battery hes talking about, it still wont help the people who are most effected by gas prices.

if middle income families are having trouble making ends meet because of gas prices, what makes him think the family can just run out and buy a new car?

By that logic, why should anybody ever research any new energy sources? The reason things are the way they are now is because 10 years ago nobody took any initiative on this, so how about we take the initiative now so things aren't worse in another 10 years.

[72 pet chicken]

By that logic, why should anybody ever research any new energy sources? The reason things are the way they are now is because 10 years ago nobody took any initiative on this, so how about we take the initiative now so things aren't worse in another 10 years.

not what im saying at all. i understand that something like this could benefit long term energy goals, but mccain is touting this plan as a means to the end of the gas price "crisis."

[Methuser]

As the prices go up, it will naturally fix itself in the free market.

LOL. Do you actually believe that? Don't respond.

[PitwrkzZ1]

Innovation requires more incentive than just money-did we go to the moon fifty years ago for profit or to kick commie ass?

[xtwistedx]

holy shit i might vote mccain on just this idea. fuck id give him a buck for a car that runs at 30% of the fuel my POS runs at now.

and honestly if all the rich folk or upper class immediately went out and bought this car it get the ball rolling on decreasing demand for gas. less demand means lower prices. eventually when the technology becomes more available prices of the vehicles will decline. then the lower class can buy em. by that point nobody will want gas guzzlers and the prices of those vehicles will plummet. shit they already are if u look at the prices of some used SUVs and trucks lately. its almost more worth it over a 5yr period to buy some low mileage 98 pickup then a 08 hybrid.

[GALLIENVS AVG]

Sure you can dude! In 2004 they promised us 4 more years of the same and they gave us that and an extra helping.

I'm looking forward to four more years!!

FOUR MORE YEARS!!

FOUR MORE YEARS!!

fOUR MORE YEARS!!

So, what you're saying is we CAN trust the Republicans to follow through on their promises? That's good to know.

LOL. Do you actually believe that? Don't respond.

Typical liberal logic. "Wow, you must be an idiot. Don't even bother trying to counter my argument, which offered nothing in opposition to your statement."

Fuck, who let this guy back?

[rebeldave]

not what im saying at all. i understand that something like this could benefit long term energy goals, but mccain is touting this plan as a means to the end of the gas price "crisis."

Where did McCain say that? He is saying it would help break the back of our oil dependency, which it will in the long run.

[72 pet chicken]

Where did McCain say that? He is saying it would help break the back of our oil dependency, which it will in the long run.

he didnt say it directly. it was only after his quick fix "gas tax holiday" was called a joke, and his plea for off shore drilling drew criticism that he came up with this gem. i just connected the dots. could i be wrong? of course.

im all for incentives, i just dont think this is completely realistic. to me, its more of a ploy to get votes rather then a real solution. the current price of oil and the pore economy is enough of an incentive for companies to produce.

with the assbackwards way our major automakers run, that 300 mill will more then likely have to be sent to japan

[Mr. Heskey]

LOL. Do you actually believe that? Don't respond.

There are many different schools of economics, each one offering it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Obviously shade is a proponent of the classical school, which provided the fuel for the industrial revolution and the boom of the 1920s. It however didn't do so well with the depression. FDR's vastly different economic policies probably wouldn't have helped much either. (It was the economic mobilization of WW2 that pulled us out).

I actually don't know where I'm going with this post except that there are many different theories of economics which people tend to cling to much as they do political ideologies.

I agree with shade in this sense. I believe the classical theory to economics or the neo-classical (supply side) works best in America. But again, neither is perfect.

[shade]

LOL. Do you actually believe that? Don't respond.

Go to college kthx.

[Nocturnal]

I'm going to have to break with my candidate here and agree with Mr. Mcain. Any incentive or govt. support to solve the energy crisis is welcome in my book.

McCain = liberal.

Government is not the answer.

As the prices go up, it will naturally fix itself in the free market.

Come now Shade, you know it's not that simple.

Sometimes the potential market gain/risk is so large that ordinary companies can't grapple the issue without some assistance/motivation.

Compare it to the massive donations for vaccinations. Sometimes donations can create a large enough "demand" to bring down marginal costs of vaccinations, creating a self fulfilling market.

[shade]

I'm going to have to break with my candidate here and agree with Mr. Mcain. Any incentive or govt. support to solve the energy crisis is welcome in my book.



Come now Shade, you know it's not that simple.

Sometimes the potential market gain/risk is so large that ordinary companies can't grapple the issue without some assistance/motivation.

Compare it to the massive donations for vaccinations. Sometimes donations can create a large enough "demand" to bring down marginal costs of vaccinations, creating a self fulfilling market.

Oh give me a break nocturnal. You of all people know that this is the exact kind of situation that the free market handles perfectly. It is one commodity rising in price that causes other commodities to become economical.

You can see it at work right now:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23378866/

Truck and SUV sales are in the tank. People are ditching gas guzzlers to buy fuel efficient compact cars.

Gasoline demand went down 2.7% last week:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFLaTvJDg5ps&refer=home


Hybrid sales are on waiting lists. I have a friend who sells for a Toyota dealership and says they can't keep Corollas on the lot.

The demand for fuel efficiency is there.

The demand for alternatives is also there and has been met with real products that you can buy today. For example, you can get an affordable natural gas powered civic that you can fill yourself at home if you have gas:
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/environment.aspx

You should really like that last option because it comes with government hand outs! You can get a tax credit for the in home filling unit.





You guys who don't believe in the free market have been brainwashed by two main factors/fallacies:
1. You think there should be a free lunch. (waaaah, gas prices shouldn't be so high)
2. You have been tricked into thinking that you need government to "fix" economic problems that you think "should" not be.

You also ignore the fact that there are only 3 conditions that can ever exist when it comes to pricing.
1. Equilibrium - when supply and demand meet in the middle and are in balance.
2. Shortages - caused when prices are too low and demand exceeds supply. This is usually the government solution. Whenever you force prices down, supply can not match it efficiently. Ask anyone who lives in a rent controlled apartment. Also think about it next time you wait in line at a post office.
3. Surpluses - caused when prices are too high and exceed demand. This is also a common government caused problem. For example, when the government sanctions cable, phone, or utility company monopolies or creates artificial barriers to entry such as in the health insurance market. Prices go higher than they naturally would.


Do not confuse these concepts with price floors and price ceilings.

And yeah, pay attention to your economics classes and try to remember them after you are done with your course.

Here is a great graph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus


My personal favorite: http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/
I am seriously considering buying that. I put myself on a petition/waiting list to volunteer a down payment when they are ready to sell.
http://gm-volt.com/

[Pajman]

LOL. Do you actually believe that? Don't respond.
It's actually already happening in Japan.

[shade]

There are many different schools of economics, each one offering it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Obviously shade is a proponent of the classical school, which provided the fuel for the industrial revolution and the boom of the 1920s. It however didn't do so well with the depression. FDR's vastly different economic policies probably wouldn't have helped much either. (It was the economic mobilization of WW2 that pulled us out).

I actually don't know where I'm going with this post except that there are many different theories of economics which people tend to cling to much as they do political ideologies.

I agree with shade in this sense. I believe the classical theory to economics or the neo-classical (supply side) works best in America. But again, neither is perfect.

I might add that the great depression was caused by the federal reserve. Bernanke admitted it and apologized. He also promised the Fed would not do that again.

[OMFG FORUM RAGE]

I voted for mcain

[Pajman]

I might add that the great depression was caused by the federal reserve. Bernanke admitted it and apologized. He also promised the Fed would not do that again.
They contributed to the Great Depression by not increasing the money supply (gold standard!). I don't think they would hesitate to do that today. :lol:
Bernanke apologized in a tongue-in-cheek manner on Friedman's birthday, so I wouldn't count on his pomise; the Fed won't mess up by failing to increase the money supply, but they could fuck up another way.
Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.

Best wishes for your next ninety years.

Yeah, that doesn't sound too serious to me either.

[Jenovah]

McCain = liberal.

Government is not the answer.

As the prices go up, it will naturally fix itself in the free market.

McCain is a liberal now too? :err:

Geez, I wonder when the definition will expand again so we can give rants about the evil liberal Ron Paul!

[Henkie]

While right now inventing something that would win the prize, will probably make the inventor much more money than the US will pay, I think it's an interesting symbolic gesture. He's making a clear point of the direction the US has to go: more energy-efficient.

Edit: about the Great Depression, an interesting point is that the way to get over it quickly was to drop the gold standard (that very same standard Paul wants to adopt again). This becomes especially clear when you make the comparison with countries that did hang on to the Gold Standard, like Holland and Switserland, Holland didn't get out of the depression untill 1938 (right in time for the next depression!)

[Nocturnal]

Oh give me a break nocturnal. You of all people know that this is the exact kind of situation that the free market handles perfectly. It is one commodity rising in price that causes other commodities to become economical.

You can see it at work right now:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23378866/

Truck and SUV sales are in the tank. People are ditching gas guzzlers to buy fuel efficient compact cars.

Gasoline demand went down 2.7% last week:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFLaTvJDg5ps&refer=home


Hybrid sales are on waiting lists. I have a friend who sells for a Toyota dealership and says they can't keep Corollas on the lot.

The demand for fuel efficiency is there.

The demand for alternatives is also there and has been met with real products that you can buy today. For example, you can get an affordable natural gas powered civic that you can fill yourself at home if you have gas:
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/environment.aspx

You should really like that last option because it comes with government hand outs! You can get a tax credit for the in home filling unit.


Progress has been slow to this point. Not to mention that the reward isn't for the whole problem, but rather for batteries which are the major limitation in electric vehicles. I see no problem with giving the market a little juice to get things going.



You also ignore the fact that there are only 3 conditions that can ever exist when it comes to pricing.
1. Equilibrium - when supply and demand meet in the middle and are in balance.
2. Shortages - caused when prices are too low and demand exceeds supply. This is usually the government solution. Whenever you force prices down, supply can not match it efficiently. Ask anyone who lives in a rent controlled apartment. Also think about it next time you wait in line at a post office.
3. Surpluses - caused when prices are too high and exceed demand. This is also a common government caused problem. For example, when the government sanctions cable, phone, or utility company monopolies or creates artificial barriers to entry such as in the health insurance market. Prices go higher than they naturally would.

Those possibilities break down only the simplest terms. They ignore entrenched interests, economies of scale, protectionism etc. Supporting a plan of this type says nothing about a person's belief in the market.


My personal favorite: http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/
I am seriously considering buying that. I put myself on a petition/waiting list to volunteer a down payment when they are ready to sell.
http://gm-volt.com/

I'm strongly looking forward to buying a plug-in hybrid or maybe even a full electric.

On a similiar vain to our discussion it's worth noting that a nationwide grid of electric "refueling" stations is another huge stumbling block. I don't imagine the oil companies will be rushing to build them unless it comes to the point where they have no choice. Were our government to build (or help build) the infrastructure the market would follow.

[Henkie]

On a similiar vain to our discussion it's worth noting that a nationwide grid of electric "refueling" stations is another huge stumbling block. I don't imagine the oil companies will be rushing to build them unless it comes to the point where they have no choice.

Why not? If there's money to be made of the power sold, oil companies should be willing to do it. Their primary interest isn't to sell oil, it's to make money in general.

Also, since there already is a worldwide grid for the transportation of electricity, it's just a matter of having the right kind of plug. Anybody could run that business if the margins are high enough. And if they weren't, carcompanies could do it, just to sell their cars.