Taser

[Mugatu]

June 26, 2008
The Canadian Press
VANCOUVER (Jun 26, 2008)
British Columbia's police complaints commissioner says he doesn't advocate a moratorium on the use of Tasers but they have become a "tool of convenience" and more testing, study and training is required.

Dirk Ryneveld told a B.C. public inquiry that he's had a long-standing concern with the Taser and how it's being used by police forces. He says issues about the shock weapon that were raised several years ago still haven't been resolved.

While Ryneveld doesn't recommend a moratorium, he says the Taser needs to be placed higher on the use-of-force scale than it currently is. And he recommends a national protocol to help all users to understand when it should be used.

The B.C. public inquiry was called in the wake of the death of Robert Dziekanski after he was hit with an RCMP Taser at Vancouver International Airport in October.

In Ontario, officials are investigating the death of a man who was tasered before being arrested by the OPP near Delhi.

What are peoples thoughts on tasers? I personally feel that they are too high a liability to use against the civilian population. A lot of deaths have been suspiciously linked to the use of this device and it seems that it is used a little too freely, at least from a number of footages that I have seen. I know some people are going to say, "dont break the law, its as simple as that". However, considering the potential consequences I would almost classify this as Police brutality, even though the death is not intentional.

Im not calling cops monsters and I know they have a difficult job, but I dont want to make their job easier at the expense of public safety. Its what they get paid for, taking risks.

[deballedtomcat]

Cops do not get paid for taking risks,they get paid for enforcing the law.It just so happens that their job is very dangerous.

Not trying to bust your chops or cause any hard feelings,but coming from a family of law enforcement,(NO,I am not involved,but I do have family memebers and friends who are),I wanted to set that record straight.

I personally have very mixed feelings on tasers,as officer safety should allways be the #1 priority when dealing with people who are being detained,for any reason.Tasers,when used properly and as intended to be used,are a great non-lethal way of stopping somebopdy from harming themselves,the police officers,or other people,and are a great non-lethal way of stopping folks fleeing from the scene..............now then the problem is that they are often not used properly,or as a first resort when they should not be used,because the officer is too quick to decide "Fuck it,I can tase this guy and nobody cares or will say anything about it".

We have all seen or heard of times when the police tase somebody for minor offenses or seemingly just for the hell of it,and even the most hardcore defender of cops,if being honest would admit that it does happen,and therein lies my problem with them.

Honestly,it's a real knee slapper to see a video when someone decides to get arrogant with the cops and refuses to obey and they get zapped and deserve it,but it's not so funny when the cop just decides that he can do it just because he doesn't want to deal with people,there are too may Officer Riviera types out there,too.

I don't like them overall,and there are too many deaths of people after being zapped,there are just too many other ways to deal with people rather than shooting electricity through their body,cops dealt with people for years without tasers,they should be able to do so today.

[chalupa]

I'm biased here, as I know the founder of Taser...when used properly, they are way less lethal than other methods -- guns and an old-fashioned beat-down. When you add the human element, ie, situation, interpretation, perceived threat, lack of compliance, and of course adrenaline, things become more complicated.

I'm for them. I'd rather see someone get zapped than shot.

[Mugatu]

Cops do not get paid for taking risks,they get paid for enforcing the law.It just so happens that their job is very dangerous.

Yah thats much better stated, although I still stand by my point that enforcing the law should have limits and tasers cross that line. I would basically classify those tasers as a leather weapon at this point considering the number deaths involved with it. If a man is armed with a weapon then draw your gun in self defense. A taser just seems like a glorified billy club that is way too easy to use with little ramifications should someone die.

Not trying to bust your chops or cause any hard feelings,but coming from a family of law enforcement,(NO,I am not involved,but I do have family memebers and friends who are),I wanted to set that record straight.

I know cops have a bad rap and I imagine a large majority are good. Sensationalist stories always make the front page while good deeds go unnoticed.

I personally have very mixed feelings on tasers,as officer safety should allways be the #1 priority when dealing with people who are being detained,for any reason.Tasers,when used properly and as intended to be used,are a great non-lethal way of stopping somebopdy from harming themselves,the police officers,or other people,and are a great non-lethal way of stopping folks fleeing from the scene..............now then the problem is that they are often not used properly,or as a first resort when they should not be used,because the officer is too quick to decide "Fuck it,I can tase this guy and nobody cares or will say anything about it".

Yah as far as I see tougher regulations are needed in regards to this weapon. Right now I just dont see it and the consequences are too high for the benifits it brings.

We have all seen or heard of times when the police tase somebody for minor offenses or seemingly just for the hell of it,and even the most hardcore defender of cops,if being honest would admit that it does happen,and therein lies my problem with them.

Honestly,it's a real knee slapper to see a video when someone decides to get arrogant with the cops and refuses to obey and they get zapped and deserve it,but it's not so funny when the cop just decides that he can do it just because he doesn't want to deal with people,there are too may Officer Riviera types out there,too.

Dont tase me bro! Funny as shit but still, excessive. I mean if two cops cant handle a skinny ass college boy without a taser then God help us all.

I don't like them overall,and there are too many deaths of people after being zapped,there are just too many other ways to deal with people rather than shooting electricity through their body,cops dealt with people for years without tasers,they should be able to do so today.

I completely agree, or if anything tasers need to be reclassified as a potentially leather weapon or modified so that it is more tame and less of a health risk. Pacers come to mind. Some disgruntled old man could get tased and that would be the end of him.

Chalupa I'm biased here, as I know the founder of Taser...when used properly, they are way less lethal than other methods -- guns and an old-fashioned beat-down. When you add the human element, ie, situation, interpretation, perceived threat, lack of compliance, and of course adrenaline, things become more complicated.

I'm for them. I'd rather see someone get zapped than shot.

I cant endore the lesser of two evils argument. Their is appropriate behaviour and then theirs not. If regulations for tasers become more strict (training etc) or the taser itself gets looked over then sure. Use it. With the mortality factor behind it now its too great a risk imo, especially with the lax use behind it in a number of situations.

[chrisvet]

We're not in a position to say how many lives have been 'saved' using tasers, but we are when it involves needless deaths.

They are clearly abused which is the real issue, which is why I condone more training, stricter guidlines for their use.
Most vids I've seen involving taser deaths are due to short tempered cops who nail someone 17 times too many when they're already incapacitated on the ground. The guy/girl is rolling on the ground in pain while he cops demand they put their arms behind their back. When they scream "I can't move my fucking arms", they jolt him/her a few more times. Totally unneccessary.

And I'll totally support Chals argument: "situation, interpretation, perceived threat, lack of compliance, and of course adrenaline, things become more complicated" because I see excessive use as temper related. Cops need to ease up a bit on the trigger.


It comes down to the same training cops go through teaching them not to beat someone to death because they're pissed he drove through 40 red lights at high speeds before he was apprehended. In the end most of us would want to kick someone in the nuts if they pointlessly endangered lives while being persuited. Cops are only humans with a shitload of power, which is why they must be held to strict guidlines / standards.

[jn_powell]

I am a big proponent of the taser myself. To be honest most of the videos I have seen that end with someone getting tasered are, in my opinion, completely valid examples of when to use a taser. When someone has to be told 7 times I am going to taser you if you don't get on the ground or get out the car, whatever, and they refuse to do so....zap em. Anytime someone struggles with the police in any way...zap em. That being said, there are certainly times when the police are way to quick to go to the taser. It seems many have lost their ability to control the situation without one, which should be, and is a paramount part of police training. While I support the use of this device fully, I certainly feel there should be restrictions and clear cut procedures for when to and when not to use a taser. Very similar to my views on gun control, all for wait periods and restriction on weapon types, etc. but I fully support the right of the Americans to own them. Not to bring that into this thread, but it was just a comparison on my own views.

[Mugatu]

While I support the use of this device fully, I certainly feel there should be restrictions and clear cut procedures for when to and when not to use a taser. Very similar to my views on gun control, all for wait periods and restriction on weapon types, etc. but I fully support the right of the Americans to own them. Not to bring that into this thread, but it was just a comparison on my own views.

The weapon seems fine for what it does it just needs to be recognized as the deadly weapon that it potentially is. I pretty much agree with you on all points I guess.

[Liberator13]

A good majority of the deaths from tasers are because of drugs in the persons system, which are already screwing with that person's heart.

[chalupa]

A good majority of the deaths from tasers are because of drugs in the persons system, which are already screwing with that person's heart.

You screw with my heart...





I still think that the Taser is a great invention, and will concede that maybe police forces shouldn't just go out and load up on them. I'm sure there are training programs in place, but more training can't hurt.

[kevinsmith]

I'm for them as well.

I've actually been tased. I was in a Citizen's Police Academy which gave us firsthand knowledge about how the department works. I volunteered to get tased and I'll tell you what, it hurt like a mother fucker. (it's funny too...not one person to whom I've showed the video hasn't laughed. Except my wife. She thought I was retarded.) But after the five second charge, not one side effect. If I had to choose between getting tased or beat down, I'd choose the former as beatdowns hurt a lot more for longer. Actually I'd choose to comply with the officer, but hey, that's another story.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the overwhelming majority of deaths have been to people who were either wacked out on something they shouldn't be, or they had a medical condition, sometimes one they didn't even know of? So, as for drugs, it's their fault. The medical condition I can kind of empathize with, but I'm going to take an unpopular stance that is based in pragmatism as opposed to idealism: I just don't give a shit about some people dying. These people who get killed are rarely if ever contributing members to society. They victimize people, they hurt others, they take from society. While they may not deserve to die, at the same time, I'm not going to mourn them. I know the OP said something about "not breaking the law" but one has to inject that into the equation. Don't break the law, don't fight with cops etc. and you won't find out what it's like.

[TFS]

If people don't want to be tased, they should settle the fuck down when a cop pulls one out and tells them to settle the fuck down.

Even if the cop is being over zealous, you've been warned, and have no one to blame but yourself at that point even if the cop is wrong to issue the warning.

You don't want the risk of being tased, stop doing whatever it is that caused the cop to pull the taser out and start in your direction with it. If you're not able to because of drugs, then fuck you, it's your own fault again.

[jn_powell]

If people don't want to be tased, they should settle the fuck down when a cop pulls one out and tells them to settle the fuck down.

Even if the cop is being over zealous, you've been warned, and have no one to blame but yourself at that point even if the cop is wrong to issue the warning.

You don't want the risk of being tased, stop doing whatever it is that caused the cop to pull the taser out and start in your direction with it. If you're not able to because of drugs, then fuck you, it's your own fault again.
I am in agreement with you hear, as you should be able to tell from my earlier post, but as with any form of control it does tend to be over used sometimes. I saw one video, for example, in which a guy was in a police station in a room and they were asking some questions and they asked him to sit down. The guy went on to very calmly say something along the lines of "Sir I just want to understand what is going on" without warning the cop pulled out his taser and popped the guy, who proceeded to fall and smack his head on a chair. No warning, no real reason, and the guy gets electrocuted and probably received a concussion as well. Again, this stuff will happen, but having clear cut guidelines is a must I feel.

[TFS]

I am in agreement with you hear, as you should be able to tell from my earlier post, but as with any form of control it does tend to be over used sometimes. I saw one video, for example, in which a guy was in a police station in a room and they were asking some questions and they asked him to sit down. The guy went on to very calmly say something along the lines of "Sir I just want to understand what is going on" without warning the cop pulled out his taser and popped the guy, who proceeded to fall and smack his head on a chair. No warning, no real reason, and the guy gets electrocuted and probably received a concussion as well. Again, this stuff will happen, but having clear cut guidelines is a must I feel.

Indeed, and you'll notice that video lacks the warning I mention in my post: that guy was not warned, therefore it's the overzealous cop's fault. Had he been warned, he probably would have verbally protested the threat but would have physically complied. But what should have happened is the cop tell him if he sits down they can explain everything that is going on.

[_Joe]

Cops do not get paid for taking risks,they get paid for enforcing the law.It just so happens that their job is very dangerous.

Not trying to bust your chops or cause any hard feelings,but coming from a family of law enforcement,(NO,I am not involved,but I do have family memebers and friends who are),I wanted to set that record straight.

I personally have very mixed feelings on tasers,as officer safety should allways be the #1 priority when dealing with people who are being detained,for any reason.Tasers,when used properly and as intended to be used,are a great non-lethal way of stopping somebopdy from harming themselves,the police officers,or other people,and are a great non-lethal way of stopping folks fleeing from the scene..............now then the problem is that they are often not used properly,or as a first resort when they should not be used,because the officer is too quick to decide "Fuck it,I can tase this guy and nobody cares or will say anything about it".

We have all seen or heard of times when the police tase somebody for minor offenses or seemingly just for the hell of it,and even the most hardcore defender of cops,if being honest would admit that it does happen,and therein lies my problem with them.

Honestly,it's a real knee slapper to see a video when someone decides to get arrogant with the cops and refuses to obey and they get zapped and deserve it,but it's not so funny when the cop just decides that he can do it just because he doesn't want to deal with people,there are too may Officer Riviera types out there,too.

I don't like them overall,and there are too many deaths of people after being zapped,there are just too many other ways to deal with people rather than shooting electricity through their body,cops dealt with people for years without tasers,they should be able to do so today.

A balloon vendor at my town's Halloween Parade this past year was tasered for refusing to move his cart. The cops couldn't just move it themselves, he wasn't resisting arrest or anything. This is the same police department that used pepper spray on middle school kids at a pizza place because too many of them were there after a dance.

Non-lethal weapons are definitely a good thing, but when in the hands of cops that want to be on "COPS," have the potential to turn into a bad thing.

You screw with my heart...





I still think that the Taser is a great invention, and will concede that maybe police forces shouldn't just go out and load up on them. I'm sure there are training programs in place, but more training can't hurt.

As far as I understand, before an officer can carry a taser or things like pepper spray, they have to have it used on themselves first during training. This part of training, however, sometimes doesn't prevent misuse or abuse.

[MurdocUSA]

Propaganda, That is all that it amounts to. You have been influenced to believe that the Taser is a dangerous weapon responsible for killing multiple violent or otherwise uncooperative subjects. This is simply not true and all one has to do is look at the stats to prove that the Taser is in fact the safest and most effective “less lethal” tool available to the officer.

It just so happens that I am a Police Officer trained and certified with the X26 Taser so I am a bit of an expert in the subject. The fact of the matter is the Taser is far safer than other tools carried by Police Officers. For example lets look at OC Spray or Oleoresin Capsicum witch was a great tool but had far to many drawbacks to its use. It often didn’t stop the suspect and sometimes affected the Officers to the point where they were left incapacitated leaving them open to attack. Not only that but pepper spray has been attributed to many more injuries and deaths than the Taser. Another popular tool carried by Officers is the ASP or expandable baton. Basically this is a steal club used to beat violent suspects into submission. Needless to say this is not a popular option for police departments who already suffer from a bad image problem. Lastly we come to the Handgun carried by all Law Enforcement personnel used only in the most extreme life threatening circumstances. Needless to say the gun is the most unpopular option open to Officers both for the Departments and the public.

Lets look at some stats and maybe you will see just how good the Taser is at doing its job witch is to effectively incapacitate violent or otherwise uncontrollable subjects and to minimize injury to the Officer and suspect.

Orange County, FL Sheriff’s Dept injuries to deputies down by 80% after deploying the M26 Taser.

Phoenix, AZ Police Department first top-10 city to deploy to all patrol officers. Suspect injuries down 67%

Venture County, CA Sheriff’s Dept Deputy injuries down 72% in 2007 Taser used 123 times

Wichita, KS P.D. Injuries one year review 2006 789 Taser ECD incidents in 2006 with 405 actual deployments (the Taser ECD was actually deployed 51% of the time when removed from the holster) When deployed: 6 injuries to suspects (0.14%), 42 secondary injuries (fall, cut, etc.) (10%), 18 officers injured. Injuries one year review for 2007: 1153 Taser ECD incidents in 2007 with 567 actual deployments. In the first year officer injuries went down 45.8% and for the 2007 year they went down another 28%

Putnam County, FL Sheriff’s department Deputy Injuries 2005: m26 for all patrol Deputies INJURIES DOWN 86%. “Not only do Tasers help our officers, but we’ve seen far fewer injuries to the persons being arrested, because we’re not having to fight with them. So, it’s a win-win situation for the officer, for the suspect being arrested and for the taxpayers, because if we’re injured or the suspect’s injured, that’s who’s paying the bill,” said Sheriff Dean Kelly.

Austin Police Dept field results officer injuries down 50% and serious suspect injuries down 82%

Charlotte-Mecklenburg, NC PD Suspect injuries down 79%

Cape Coral, Fl PD suspect Injuries down 68% OFFICER INJURIES DOWN 93%

I can post stats all day long but the point is don’t be an idiot. Do some research before you start calling for the removal of the greatest tool ever made available to Police Officers, think about what your asking for. More injuries and death to both sides of the law, this tool really does save lives. I have deployed my Taser 2 times in the last 5 months. The first time was on a man armed with 2 knifes and let me tell you the ONLY other option was to shoot the man. The 2nd time was when two drunken guys outside a bar were attacking me. After I Tasered the first one that charged me the other got on the ground, we all escaped injury or death that day. We don’t get paid to get hurt.

Let me make one last point. YES, if you get pulled over buy a Utah State Trooper and refuse to give your DL or sign the ticket and refuse the officers orders and walk back to your vehicle YOU WILL BE TASED and ARRESTED. Refusing to sign a ticket is an arrestable offence.

[chrisvet]

I just don't give a shit about some people dying. These people who get killed are rarely if ever contributing members to society

Common Kevin, many of the people who die from Taser death don't fit your description. Google the vids, not everyone is a hardened piece of shit.
They're just everyday people overreacting & making stupid decisions to disobey the cops.

Murdock: Those stats are impressive as far as safety numbers for both Cops & Civilians. I'd say its also good to get a perspective from an insider like you.

[Papero]

I'm for more powerful tasers used against anyone even slightly questioning an officer.

Nothing pisses me off more then someone who questions authority, I personally would rather the person be shot but that's just me.

[GhostJang]

Let me make one last point. YES, if you get pulled over buy a Utah State Trooper and refuse to give your DL or sign the ticket and refuse the officers orders and walk back to your vehicle YOU WILL BE TASED and ARRESTED. Refusing to sign a ticket is an arrestable offence.

So instead of attempting to arrest the person first, they tase them and then arrest them? I never knew refusing to sign a ticket automatically means you get physically assaulted by an officer.

[chrisvet]

I'm for more powerful tasers used against anyone even slightly questioning an officer.

Nothing pisses me off more then someone who questions authority, I personally would rather the person be shot but that's just me.

Newsflash: Unless you're breaking the law, you are on equal footing with cops. Murdock knows this, and you have every right to ignore a cop and move on if he stops you for questioning. You can ask a cop any question you like, including why he's holding you up. Sure they'll use the obstruction of justice threat, but at the end of the day they have shit on you if you simply say nothing.

Oh yes they'll possibly take you in and hold you for a few hours, but its your constitutionally given right to privacy by keeping your mouth shut.

Now on the flipside, most people including me are very courteous with cops to avoid bullshit. Thats just common sense, but most are unaware of their 'equal' status with cops when not breaking the law.

[MurdocUSA]

So instead of attempting to arrest the person first, they tase them and then arrest them? I never knew refusing to sign a ticket automatically means you get physically assaulted by an officer.

That just shows your ignorance when it comes to law enforcement. If I tell you to stop and you turn away from me while placing your hand in your pocket, then proceed to walk back to your vehicle I’m not going to wait to see what it is your planning on doing. I’m going to put you on the ground the fastest way I know how and for that Trooper that was the Taser

EDIT:
You do not debate the validity of a ticket with the Police Officer on the side of the road. You sign the ticket then fight it in court if you fill it was issued wrongfully.

[chrisvet]

That just shows your ignorance when it comes to law enforcement. If I tell you to stop and you turn away from me while placing your hand in your pocket, then proceed to walk back to your vehicle I’m not going to wait to see what it is your planning on doing. I’m going to put you on the ground the fastest way I know how and for that Trooper that was the Taser

EDIT:
You do not debate the validity of a ticket with the Police Officer on the side of the road. You sign the ticket then fight it in court if you fill it was issued wrongfully.

Murdock, can you arrest people if they refuse to sign the ticket?

[MurdocUSA]

Murdock, can you arrest people if they refuse to sign the ticket?

In my state, absolutely without question.

EDIT: that’s why I said don't fight with an Officer about the ticket on the side of the road. Signing a ticket is not an admission of guilt. It is only a promise to appear in court.

EDIT: I see your from Canada so I really don't know how your laws work.

[chrisvet]

In my state, absolutely without question.

EDIT: that’s why I said don't fight with an Officer about the ticket on the side of the road. Signing a ticket is not an admission of guilt. It is only a promise to appear in court.

EDIT: I see your from Canada so I really don't know how your laws work.

If you refuse to sign ticket, you won't get arrested, but they’ll say you’ve dishonored it, and they’ll sign the back stating you refused.

There's also a legal loophole here that almost nobody knows about that gets you off all traffic ticket citations in Canada. Part of it includes not signing the ticket & disputing 'presentment.' The process gives the ministry 3 days to prove you received the ticket (which never happens because it takes weeks for the ministry to get anything done) and ultimately lands the cop liable for the ticket. Sounds unreal? Its not, and completely legal. Almost nobody knows about it & theres more to the story.

[_Joe]

Let me make one last point. YES, if you get pulled over buy a Utah State Trooper and refuse to give your DL or sign the ticket and refuse the officers orders and walk back to your vehicle YOU WILL BE TASED and ARRESTED. Refusing to sign a ticket is an arrestable offence.

Whatever happened to simply arresting them?

[Devastation]

Whatever happened to guns and nooses?

[GhostJang]

Whatever happened to simply arresting them?

Lol, that was the point of my post...but I got called ignorant.

[_Joe]

Whatever happened to guns and nooses?

My point was, why not just arrest him if he walks back to his vehicle? Why is a taser necessary? Is it preventative IN CASE he would become violent? Is it now police policy to assume a citizen will be violent?

[MurdocUSA]

Whatever happened to simply arresting them?

He was arresting him, do you think the officer should risk injury fighting a man on the side of the highway just because you and a few others thank that tasering someone is barbaric? There is a stigma about electrocuting someone. Please go back to my op, the stats from Taser use is clear as it can be. You do not argue with the Police; you do not resist the police even if it is passive resistance. For gods sake to anyone who thanks they may have a bad run in with the cops never put your damn hands in your pocket. Cops know that bad things come out of pockets and they will take whatever action they see fit to maintain their personal safety. Neither I nor any other Police Officer swore an oath to put ourselves in harms way, when we do it is an act of pure compassion and heroism.

Please look up some officer training videos on youtube. You will find that recovery from being Tasered is instant with no lingering pain or injury what so ever (other than the small pinholes from the probes).

EDIT: and yes I have been Tasered

[2ndAmendment]

I think it should be a punishment. You know, you get pulled over for speeding, instead of getting a ticket, they just taze you. Think about it.

The cops gets to have fun, so he's happy. You get tazed, so you earn your punishment for breaking the law, and you save some money and insurance problems.

The severity of the infraction determines the location and length of the taze. Simple speeding: Tazed in the leg for 2 seconds. Wreckless driving: Tazed in the arm for 5 seconds. Drunk driving: Tazed in the groin for 10 seconds.

I should run for congress.

[_Joe]

He was arresting him, do you think the officer should risk injury fighting a man on the side of the highway just because you and a few others thank that tasering someone is barbaric?
What exactly are we talking about here? You were referring to a man walking away from an officer, not someone fighting police. If there is a reasonable risk of bodily harm to the officer, I guess it's justified, but how is it reasonable with a man simply walking away?

There is a stigma about electrocuting someone. Please go back to my op, the stats from Taser use is clear as it can be.
Yea, and I am not bound by that stigma. The taser is a great form of non-lethal force, it simply has the potential for abuse sometimes, like using it against someone simply for walking away as you stated.

You do not argue with the Police; you do not resist the police even if it is passive resistance. For gods sake to anyone who thanks they may have a bad run in with the cops never put your damn hands in your pocket.
If he was arresting him, as you're now stating, he probably would have been patted down, so the officer would know nothing was in his pocket.


Cops know that bad things come out of pockets and they will take whatever action they see fit to maintain their personal safety. Neither I nor any other Police Officer swore an oath to put ourselves in harms way, when we do it is an act of pure compassion and heroism.
Hey, I have a pocket. Maybe you should shoot me, I might do some harm with it.

A man walking away from you presents little or not threat.

Please look up some officer training videos on youtube. You will find that recovery from being Tasered is instant with no lingering pain or injury what so ever (other than the small pinholes from the probes).
Except for the few people with heart conditions who die from it.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/11/jury-finds-taser-accountable-for-mans-death-awards-6m-settlem/
http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/?page=2&ses=eee653213a3929cdf45a270feaa5e76c
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html

[MurdocUSA]

What exactly are we talking about here? You were referring to a man walking away from an officer, not someone fighting police. If there is a reasonable risk of bodily harm to the officer, I guess it's justified, but how is it reasonable with a man simply walking away?

So in your perfect world a man should be able to completely ignore the commands of a police officer, return to his vehicle where he mayor may not have a weapon and the police officer should just stand there and do nothing. You keep saying that he should have arrested him... he was already ignoring the Officers commands, how was the officer to simply arrest him as you put it?

Lets say for shits and giggles the police officer didn't have the Taser and instead had to reach for the subjects hand to place him under arrest. The guy already thinks he has done nothing wrong so now he pulls away from the officer at which time the Officer takes the subject to the ground where a struggle ensues. The subject and officer ends up with multiple injuries that the tax payers have to pay for and the video still makes it onto youtube where uneducated blowhards call for the officers prosecution and resignation. These are the thoughts that go through Officers minds as they enforce the laws that make the rest of us safe.

I think I’ll go with the option that does not evolve me getting into a fight on the side of the highway.

[_Joe]

Lets say for shits and giggles the police officer didn't have the Taser and instead had to reach for the subjects hand to place him under arrest. The guy already thinks he has done nothing wrong so now he pulls away from the officer at which time the Officer takes the subject to the ground where a struggle ensues. The subject and officer ends up with multiple injuries that the tax payers have to pay for and the video still makes it onto youtube where uneducated blowhards call for the officers prosecution and resignation. These are the thoughts that go through Officers minds as they enforce the laws that make the rest of us safe.

I think I’ll go with the option that does not evolve me getting into a fight on the side of the highway.

You're right, let's just tase them all just in case they're violent. And who cares if they have a heart condition, it's their fault.

[2ndAmendment]

You're right, let's just tase them all just in case they're violent. And who cares if they have a heart condition, it's their fault.

Tasers are part of the force continuum. They can't just taze for no reason, there has to be a threat.

If you have a heart condition, and you decide to swing at a cop, resist arrest, etc. then it's your fault, not the cops. Out of the 2 people involved, only one of you knew you had a heart condition. What, now cops are supposed to be mind readers?

You act like an asshole, you get punished. It's very simple. If you cooperate with the police, you won't get tazed or sprayed or anything. Even if the cop is dead wrong, you do NOT have a right to fight him or her. There is a time and place for that, and it's before a judge.

[_Joe]

Tasers are part of the force continuum. They can't just taze for no reason, there has to be a threat.
Tell that to the guy selling balloons at our town's parade last year who got tased for not moving his balloon cart. I'm sure he was a HUGE threat...

If you have a heart condition, and you decide to swing at a cop, resist arrest, etc. then it's your fault, not the cops. Out of the 2 people involved, only one of you knew you had a heart condition. What, now cops are supposed to be mind readers?
No. The fact that tasers CAN cause death means cops should not use it lightly like they do sometimes, like the cops who want to be on "COPS" as I stated before.

You act like an asshole, you get punished. It's very simple. If you cooperate with the police, you won't get tazed or sprayed or anything. Even if the cop is dead wrong, you do NOT have a right to fight him or her. There is a time and place for that, and it's before a judge.

Cops aren't supposed to be doing the punishing, only the arrest. The punishment is supposed to be before a judge and in prison.

[MurdocUSA]

Tasers are part of the force continuum. They can't just taze for no reason, there has to be a threat.

If you have a heart condition, and you decide to swing at a cop, resist arrest, etc. then it's your fault, not the cops. Out of the 2 people involved, only one of you knew you had a heart condition. What, now cops are supposed to be mind readers?

You act like an asshole, you get punished. It's very simple. If you cooperate with the police, you won't get tazed or sprayed or anything. Even if the cop is dead wrong, you do NOT have a right to fight him or her. There is a time and place for that, and it's before a judge.

SIR, I HAVE GIVEN YOU MULTIPLE COMMANDS TO STOP YOU HAVE REFUSED EVERY LAWFUL ORDER GIVEN. AT THIS TIME I WILL BE ADMINISTERING 50,000 VOLTS OF ELECTRICITY THROUGH YOUR BODY BY MEANS OF A TASER DEVISE. IF YOU HAVE ANY HEART CONDITIONS THAT MAY CAUSE YOU TO GO INTO CARDIAC ARREST IF TASERED PLEASE INFORM ME NOW!:dunce:

What he means by continuum is this. Verbal first, followed by forceful commands, then you move to something more like pepper spray. (Which by the way is the same level of force that most departments place the Taser) then followed by hands on. Physically fighting with a suspect is considered using more force than Tasering someone. That’s where your logic fails you.

[_Joe]

SIR, I HAVE GIVEN YOU MULTIPLE COMMANDS TO STOP YOU HAVE REFUSED EVERY LAWFUL ORDER GIVEN. AT THIS TIME I WILL BE ADMINISTERING 50,000 VOLTS OF ELECTRICITY THROUGH YOUR BODY BY MEANS OF A TASER DEVISE. IF YOU HAVE ANY HEART CONDITIONS THAT MAY CAUSE YOU TO GO INTO CARDIAC ARREST IF TASERED PLEASE INFORM ME NOW!:dunce:

I like how you ignored my post there. You're probably just like those asshole cops who tailgate teenage kids through town, or pepper spray middle schoolers.

[MurdocUSA]

I like how you ignored my post there. You're probably just like those asshole cops who tailgate teenage kids through town, or pepper spray middle schoolers.

What have I ignored? please ask me a question and I'll answer you.

And you let your true nature shine through with this post. Your problem is not with the Taser it’s with you thinking that cops operate outside the law and without regulation. I'm sorry that you are young and ill informed but that’s your parents fault not the cops.

EDIT: It's funny that you have that quote at the bottom of your post. It's a term used regularly among Police Officers.

[2ndAmendment]

Cops aren't supposed to be doing the punishing, only the arrest. The punishment is supposed to be before a judge and in prison.

OK Tell that to a cop then take a swing at him. See who punishes you for it.

[_Joe]

What have I ignored? please ask me a question and I'll answer you.
Ok

Tasers are part of the force continuum. They can't just taze for no reason, there has to be a threat.
Tell that to the guy selling balloons at our town's parade last year who got tased for not moving his balloon cart. I'm sure he was a HUGE threat...

If you have a heart condition, and you decide to swing at a cop, resist arrest, etc. then it's your fault, not the cops. Out of the 2 people involved, only one of you knew you had a heart condition. What, now cops are supposed to be mind readers?
No. The fact that tasers CAN cause death means cops should not use it lightly like they do sometimes, like the cops who want to be on "COPS" as I stated before.

You act like an asshole, you get punished. It's very simple. If you cooperate with the police, you won't get tazed or sprayed or anything. Even if the cop is dead wrong, you do NOT have a right to fight him or her. There is a time and place for that, and it's before a judge.

Cops aren't supposed to be doing the punishing, only the arrest. The punishment is supposed to be before a judge and in prison.[/quote]

Reply to that please.


And you let your true nature shine through with this post. Your problem is not with the Taser it’s with you thinking that cops operate outside the law and without regulation. I'm sorry that you are young and ill informed but that’s your parents fault not the cops.
I'm not saying all cops are bad, in fact most are good. In small towns with drug problems (like mine) the cops become suspicious of all law abiding citizens. They have no relationship with their community. This creates a detachment which leads to abuse of power sometimes.

EDIT: It's funny that you have that quote at the bottom of your post. It's a term used regularly among Police Officers.
Advocates of the 2nd amendment use it often, as well.


OK Tell that to a cop then take a swing at him. See who punishes you for it.

I would never do that, but if I did he would simply use the force necessary to get me under control. The taser gives cops the opportunity to dole out punishment before the assailant is even arrested, which is mostly what I have issue with.

Again, how is taking a swing at an officer comparable to walking away from him?




k, goodnight.

[MurdocUSA]

To joecnt74

Ok my last post on this subject, I have posted statistical proof that the Taser is an invaluable tool for law enforcement, which is why I got into this topic in the first place.

Cops aren't supposed to be doing the punishing, only the arrest. The punishment is supposed to be before a judge and in prison.

You act like an asshole, you get punished

Reply to that please.

I am assuming you think I am ok with this statement but in fact I am totally apposed to Officers taking into their own hands the power exclusively belonging to the court.

Also without the facts behind the balloon guy getting Tasered there is no way for any of us to say with certainty whether or not the balloon guy did anything to merit being Tasered. Forgive me if I don’t take your account at face value.

“I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6” sums up this debate nicely.

[UsUcEggs]

Let me make one last point. YES, if you get pulled over buy a Utah State Trooper and refuse to give your DL or sign the ticket and refuse the officers orders and walk back to your vehicle YOU WILL BE TASED and ARRESTED. Refusing to sign a ticket is an arrestable offence.


Would have been too much to ask that cop to USE HIS FUCKING BRAIN THAT GOD HAD GIVEN HIM before he had shot that guy with 10,000 volts? I'm not an expert on brains and officers, but there is a lot of evidence on YouTube that you guys don't need tasers, batons, guns or mace.

[droogsteve]

What exactly are we talking about here? You were referring to a man walking away from an officer, not someone fighting police. If there is a reasonable risk of bodily harm to the officer, I guess it's justified, but how is it reasonable with a man simply walking away?

Why is he walking away? Is he going to his car for a weapon? Refusing to submit because he has warrants? About to jump back in his car and start a deadly high speed chase? I'm sorry, but do you know the chaos that would ensue when the word spread that all you had to do to avoid a ticket or arrest is walk away? It cannot be permitted. People cannot take it upon themselves to decide if they want to listen to the police or not. If you feel the ticket was unfair, fight it in court. If you feel the officer did something wrong, file a complaint with Internal Affairs or get a lawyer and sue. But you CAN'T just walk away. If you refuse to submit and you get tased, it's YOUR fault. It's that simple.


I also take issue with your earlier statement that they should "simply arrest them". Contrary to what you may believe, cops can't say a magic word and have handcuffs magically appear on someone. If someone is refusing to do something as innocuous as signing a ticket, why would you believe they'd passively submit to handcuffing and arrest? There's nothing "simple" about it. Sometimes physical force is necessary, and the taser is far less dangerous to the officer AND the suspect than a hands-on physical confrontation.



Except for the few people with heart conditions who die from it.

People with certain heart conditions can die from drinking a Red Bull. We don't ban Red Bull. We hope that people with heart conditions are smart enough not to drink them, just like we hope they're smart enough not to resist arrest.

And BTW, a physical struggle with officers who don't have the taser option can kill someone with a heart condition just as easy as a taser.


Tasers save countless lives. Knife or bat/club-wielding suspects who would have been shot in past decades are now easily and harmlessly subdued. My brother is an NYPD Sergeant and EVERY DAY he sees violently drugged out or mentally deranged suspects who in the past would have literally had to be beaten into submission now quickly taken into custody, uninjured, to receive the help they need. Some critics don't understand what a valuable life saving tool the taser is, and how the good they do far outweighs any harm.


Others just like to bitch about the police. This group (no one in this thread, as far as I can see), which wants to ban tasers, are also the first to call for indictments against cops whenever deadly force is used: "Why'd they have to SHOOT him"?


They are childish morons who simply don't live in the real world.

[Mugatu]

Would have been too much to ask that cop to USE HIS FUCKING BRAIN THAT GOD HAD GIVEN HIM before he had shot that guy with 10,000 volts? I'm not an expert on brains and officers, but there is a lot of evidence on YouTube that you guys don't need tasers, batons, guns or mace.

Tasers should be treated as a deadly weapon because of the potential life threatening injuries associated with it and only used in extreme, potentially life threatening situations. A large number of footage I have seen a man was competely outnumbered and no real threat, or at least not a serious one. Just because you tell someone that you are going to tase them doesnt mean it is alright to do so. "Hey you, stop mouthing off to me and resisting arrest or Ill put a bullet in your head." He continues to mouth off... BAM! Well... I warned him so therefore its fine.

[PitwrkzZ1]

My brother just received training to be a Westchester County park ranger, and the gave him Pepper spray and a retractable baton. On of the techniques they taught him was to use the butt of the baton to strike the collar bone until the subject is compliant....basically bash in your collar bone until you have no fight left in you. And this is park ranger training.

Lets see, which is more humane, that technique, or one that leaves no permanent physical injury and still leaves the subject compliant?

[droogsteve]

I had no idea Westchester parks were such violent places!! :eek: ;)

[PitwrkzZ1]

I had no idea Westchester parks were such violent places!! :eek: ;)

Yeah, I had no idea either but apparently Playland can get pretty bad at night along with some other places,. He's at Glen Island now and he says its pretty quiet. They gave him Kevlar body armor as well. Needless to say, our mom wasn't too happy when she saw that :lol:

[droogsteve]

Yeah, I had no idea either but apparently Playland can get pretty bad at night along with some other places,. He's at Glen Island now and he says its pretty quiet. They gave him Kevlar body armor as well. Needless to say, our mom wasn't too happy when she saw that :lol:


Yeah, Playland is getting bad. It's OK during the day, but at night it's like the Riker's Island visiting room.

[chrisvet]

My brother just received training to be a Westchester County park ranger, and the gave him Pepper spray and a retractable baton. On of the techniques they taught him was to use the butt of the baton to strike the collar bone until the subject is compliant....basically bash in your collar bone until you have no fight left in you. And this is park ranger training.

Lets see, which is more humane, that technique, or one that leaves no permanent physical injury and still leaves the subject compliant?

Park Rangers are often in dangerous situations facing people who are about to lose their boats / trucks / gear for simply poaching (Canadian laws.)

When its 1 ranger vs 2 or more guys in the middle of nowhere (who are about to lose everything), arm him to the nuts including a Taser.

[deballedtomcat]

I think that for the most part we can agree that the problem isn't the taser itself,but the cop who is too quick to tase somebody?

Folks,police work is more street diplomacy than anything else,and a good officer will allways try to to do things without having to use violence of any kind.

Unfortunately,you do have cops who suffer from "John Wayne" Syndrome or "Black Glove" syndrome,which is to say that they wield their power absolute and will not tolerate any variation from what they want done,like Officer Riviera in the skateboard kid video.

When a cop acts badly,it reflects upon not only him,not only his department,but police officers everywhere,that's why "fuck da police" is such a common phrase these days.....,,I digress and I am ranting,but I still have to say that,in my opinion,tasers just are not necessary for a police officer to do his job,and they can be too easily abused (And we all know it happens)

My brother,who is a cop,agrees with MurdocUSA,who does bring some very good points to the debate,again officer safety should be paramount,I just feel that there are better ways than to tase people.

[UsUcEggs]

Police officers are frequently tasering people before using other faculties (i.e. their fucking brain) without any negative discourse. As long as a video of some gun-ho cop tasering granny never makes it to the public or you tube, police will forever be exonerated from their actions and likely stay on the force for some time and are bolstered by other officers to enact dangerous physical harm to civilians. It's just wrong.

I don't understand how police live with themselves or go to bed at night. Maybe we citizens should lock up the police in order to preserve the constitution.

[chrisvet]

Police officers are frequently tasering people before using other faculties (i.e. their fucking brain) without any negative discourse. As long as a video of some gun-ho cop tasering granny never makes it to the public or you tube, police will forever be exonerated from their actions and likely stay on the force for some time and are bolstered by other officers to enact dangerous physical harm to civilians. It's just wrong.

I don't understand how police live with themselves or go to bed at night. Maybe we citizens should lock up the police in order to preserve the constitution.

you will be euthenized / neutered for making those comments in here.