Bush "Amnesty"

[shade]

It has been mentioned a little here and there but I think it deserves its own thread. Under bush's proposed plan, all illegal immigrants can get 3 years of "citizenship" which allows them to basically have a green card. After the 3 years are up they are evaluated and either deported or allowed to stay for another amount of time. The claim is that we need them to fill jobs that americans wont do.

Like the steel tarrif, I disagree with this and say that Bush's economic policy is flawed here. If there werent mexicans to do cheap labor, the supply of labor would go down, and the price would go up. You need janitors, construction workers, food servers, vegetable pickers, etc. These jobs WILL be done, period. The pay for the job would have to go up, and then americans would eventually be willing to work. I would pick fruit on a farm for $15 as a job while in college or summer in high school, etc. It is simple supply and demand.

And no, prices would not go up much for consumers. One example I saw was that a head of lettuce has about 10 cents of labor, if the wage doubled, you would pay an extra 10 cents for a head of lettuce. And, americans would be willing to pick that lettuce at that wage. 20 cents per head of lettuce. Heck, work fast and that really adds up fast.

Illegal immigrant workers simply undercut the market. Not to mention, they send a ton of their money back to mexico which drains our economy.

[Karly]

My opinion on this amnesty is that it shouldnt happen AT ALL. Whoever is illegal should be sent back immediately- I assure you that the rate of ppl applying for food stamps welfare & medicaid will reduce drastically as well.

[Nocturnal]

I thought it was more of a job-visa program? I didn't know he was offering temporary amnesty. We can only do the amnesty thing so often, we do need a steady supply of cheap labour but it should be legal labour. (and at a pay rate of the federal standards)

[droogsteve]

It's ridiculous. It will cause a flood of illegal immigration. It encourages people to break the law. It's pretty much saying "OK, officially you're not allowed to come here. But if you DO manage to sneak past the border, there's a legal job and all the rights of a US citizen waiting for you. But don't do it, OK?" What the fuck?

As I mentioned in the other thread, it's a self perpetuating cycle:

Businesses say that Americans don't want these jobs because the salary is so low. But the entire reason that the salaries for these jobs are so low is because of the abundance of illegal immigrants who will work for that kind of money. So the employers keep the salaries artificially low by hiring illegals and then complain that Americans don't want the jobs. It's all bullshit.

If the new policy is approved, many businesses that now hire Americans at a decent wage because they're afraid of immigration violations will now slash salaries to drive them away. They will then hire the new "legal" illegals at half the price.


As Shade said, contrary to what some people will tell you we don't NEED illegal immigrants. Lettuce still needs to be picked, restaurants still need their dishes washed and their floors mopped. It will get done. It will just be done by Americans making a living wage. If I have to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce or an extra buck for a meal in a restaurant, I consider that a miniscule sacrifice to ensure that all of our citizens can make a decent wage.

[Nocturnal]

the problem with illegal aliens is enforcement, tons come over and work illegally and the local governments turn a blind eye for the most part.

We have always depended on a influx of immigrants to do our shitty low paying work, it is only a problem when they are illegal because they get paid so much less that the legal residents.

[shade]

I assure you that the rate of ppl applying for food stamps welfare & medicaid will reduce drastically as well. Wow that is pretty racist!!! Oh, nm... you are hispanic ;)

We can only do the amnesty thing so often, we do need a steady supply of cheap labour but it should be legal labour. The steady rate of cheap labor is why we dont have a national "living wage."

the problem with illegal aliens is enforcement, tons come over and work illegally and the local governments turn a blind eye for the most part. Exactly. We already have the laws. They need to be enforced. Border states complain that they are mandated to enforce the laws, but arent given the money to. Bullshit. The cost that illegal immigrants put on states in hospitals and schools is more than the cost of deportation and actual enforcement at the border. It may cost $1000-2000 to deport an illegal, but that is as much or less than the cost of them going to an emergency room.

[Karly]

Shade my remark may have seemed a bit racist but its the trooof! Its unreal how I have to pay ridiculous amounts of taxes & there are frikkin illegals coming here & sponging- I wouldnt mind if the majrity of ppl on public asst actually needed it - but lets get real , to some its a way of life. & yeah I am a spic- SO WHAT!;)

[Merkulrdanu]

thats gonna piss off the legitimate aliens, it really dumb

[Karly]

Originally posted by Merkulrdanu
thats gonna piss off the legitimate aliens, it really dumb

do you ever have anything of substance to add- half the time your posts make no sense & when they do its nonsensical bullshit anyoleway.

[Merkulrdanu]

ok
a close friend of mine had to try hard to get into the country around 1990 from nicaragua, they had just had a civil war, but, she is here legitimately, with resident status, working for citizenship, after going back home for a few years, she has been here for about 5 years straight
gray davis was going to try something like this, now hes been replaced with good old arnold

[SectorNine]

Originally posted by shade
The cost that illegal immigrants put on states in hospitals and schools is more than the cost of deportation and actual enforcement at the border. It may cost $1000-2000 to deport an illegal, but that is as much or less than the cost of them going to an emergency room.

That is soo true. I don't think people realize exactly how much of our taxes go to support illegals. My wife and I were talking about the school system (she's a teacher) and she was telling me how we have to educate the children of the illegals, even if they weren't born here. On top of that most of the kids speak little if no english. She has three kids, in her class alone, who don't understand anything she teaches. They just smile and say "yes" to everything. What a waste of taxes. And that's just the schools. Health care is a whole other issue.
People want to talk about a deficit? I can think of a few places we could start with the cuts.

[Karly]

But the reason why the schools want the children is money. You get a certain amount per student- the amount varies of course from state to state. But I dont believe that children not being able to speak the language is an issue. To me that is made an issue whenthey are placed in an ESL class. My mother & aunt were raised in a home where all they spoke was spanish & when they went to kindergarten they didnt know any englsih & with the immersion the picked it up in 2 weeks & they speak perfect english with no accents or anything.
Back to the original thread topic though- we would save soooo much money if we had some sort of law in place that states you cannot go to the ER if you are an illegal. Its not fair cuz then they go & apply for medicaid & they get it. Unreal.

[Merkulrdanu]

theres liberals for ya
at my school we get $7200 per student a year
i dont know that we have too many illegals in michigan, just a bunch of cubans

[j.elohim]

Originally posted by mamichuli
Its not fair cuz then they go & apply for medicaid & they get it. Unreal.

Would you rather them die?....and then have to deal with all the paper work that would entail.

[Karly]

Originally posted by j.elohim
Would you rather them die?....and then have to deal with all the paper work that would entail.

i dont care what happens to them in all honesty- i would rather they go back to where they came from.

[droogsteve]

I agree. They're breaking the law by coming here. Free health care only encourages more of them. The ones that work here are always off the books, so they use government services without contributing a dime in taxes. Most send every penny they can back to their homeland, further draining the US economy.

I have a friend that's a little more extreme. He contends that if he runs over an illegal or shoots his rifle out the window and kills one it shouldn't be a crime. He reasons that if they didn't break the law by coming here they wouldn't be in front of his car or bullet in the first place. He hasn't tested this theory yet, but I'll let you know how it works out if he ever gets drunk enough to do it. :p

[Karly]

Droog you are right about them sending back all of the money they make here to their home. A friend of mine had a stepdad who was from Jordan & all he ever did was bad mouth this country about how the kids are the govt everything. But he came here to make money because his country had nothing to offer him & he too worked off the books & sent all the money back to his family. Fuck the illegals & the immigrants- if you want to complain about the country that feeds you -literally- then take a hike.

[Fossil]

I agree with Shade and Droog. You cannot ignore the law out of convenience.

It's not unusual down here in San Diego to have twenty illegals Mexicans rent out a cheap room and split the costs of food and rent together. They'll keep perhaps $100 each for themselves a month which they use to scrape by, and then send back the rest to their families in Mexico.

They come here because Mexico has a horrible economy. Their minimum wage is around 60 cents an hour. Try living on that! A very small minority control nearly all of the wealth while the rest literally live in shacks. It's the filthy rich and the plain filthy. It's only natural for someone to want to come to America under those conditions where you can easily make 10x the wages with the same amount of work. I mean, would you move up to Canada if they were paying McDonalds fry boys up there 70 dollars an hour? Hell yes.

It's impossible to have an open border jobs visa program with Mexico when our two economies are so vastly unequal. It's totally one sided.

Bush is after that Mexican oil.. but he needs president Fox to open Mexico up to American companies. But Fox won't do it because he knows the Mexicans will raise hell unless perhaps Bush gives the Mexicans some jobs.


Who does the construction work for you in New York Droog? I don't imagine there are a lot of illegal immigrants (read: slave labor) to pick from, as there are in San Diego.

[shade]

Would you rather them die?....and then have to deal with all the paper work that would entail. Not at all - I want them to go to a hospital in Mexico.

It's not unusual down here in San Diego to have twenty illegals Mexicans rent out a cheap room and split the costs of food and rent together. They'll keep perhaps $100 each for themselves a month which they use to scrape by, and then send back the rest to their families in Mexico. And this also shows how they are willing to do everything they can to help their families. Just think of how much better shape Mexico would be in if they all stayed there! The smart illegals get through high school and sometimes all the way through college. Do they go back to mexico? NO! Mexico is mainly having a labor drain, but they are also losing the people with the brains to lead the labor. If they werent allowed to so easily jump across the border, Mexico could at least be as good as Canada in 50 years.

the filthy rich and the plain filthy. And many of the rich are rich illegally, like through drugs.

[droogsteve]

Originally posted by Fossil
Who does the construction work for you in New York Droog? I don't imagine there are a lot of illegal immigrants (read: slave labor) to pick from, as there are in San Diego. There's plenty of illegals here too, but they are mostly in food service and custodial type jobs. The codes are pretty strict up here so almost all major construction is done by union shops, such as my own. Smaller jobs that don't require major permits or city inspection are sometimes done by non-union outfits. Some of those hire illegals, but I only work on union jobs so I don't run into them. Every once in a while I'll turn on the news and see a story about a someone getting killed on a construction site when a trench collapses or a wall caves in. Every single time it's a non union shop with immigrant laborers.

[Bergs]

In Farmingdale on Long Island there is a major illegal problem, dozens of Mexican day laborers stand on the corner of a 7-11 there and wait for contractors to pick them up for construction jobs in the morning, I think that the police need to really start cracking down not only on the illegals who sit there but also the people that hire them for the day, my dad by the way owns a non-union shop but never uses illegal labor, also I think this policy is of Bush's is retarded but I dont think it will alienate his core supporters, he just needs to be reminded that he shouldnt be catering to special interest groups with idiotic policies, something he has been fairly good on with some exceptions, most notably this and the steel tariffs.