Illegal Immigration: The Rise of Hate [Archive]

TFS

10-13-2005, 12:01 AM

I agree that that's a bad argument in how it's being used. Yes, some jobs are taken, but that's going to happen anyway. If not an immigrant (legal or not), it could just as easily be your neighbor. That's competition. If it's that much a of a problem, you need to step up and make yourself more valuable, not look for the government to provide a job for you. That's socialism.

My issue with illegal immigration is that these people are enjoying rights reserved for citizens and not having to deal with any responsibilities bestowed upon citizens, like taxes or the draft. It's not like we make it hard to become a citizen. Learn some basic history, a little English, and you're all set.

In my opinion, there is no reason or excuse to be here illegally unless you have ill will.

In fact, I think the standards for naturalization are a bit low. We don't expect people to speak English well enough to engage in basic transactions or small talk, which is a problem that causes disunity. And I lean towards keeping English and not being a bilingual nation simply because it's how we've been doing it for 200+ years. The burden to adapt here should be placed upon those wishing to enter into our society mid-life, not those who have been paying taxes all their adult lives.

That may be a bit ethnocentric of me, but I have no problem with immigrants still practicing their culture as they did back in their native country, as I think it's important to hold onto most traditions as long as they do not interfere with the laws currently in place. Also, they should not try to say they take offense to our culture/customs already in place and try to force us to change. Again, that is the burden to adapt. They know the rules before they enter the game, so it's not fair to cry foul at halftime.

If I travel to another country, I will make sure I know the basic phrases in the native language so I can at least make small transactions for sounvineers, food, and ask where the bathroom is. I would not expect them to speak English for me. I'm on their turf, and it's their rules and land. Be a courteous guest.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 12:04 AM

I know a couple of "snowbacks" from Canada and these fags get ZERO problems at work from their white employers because their WHITE! Their treated like their American.

But yeah race has something to do with it. And, I love how people say Mexicans aren't assimalating yet they LOVE joining that US military and are willing to get blown to bits for a damn green card.

BurritoClock

10-13-2005, 12:16 AM

TFS

10-13-2005, 12:19 AM

Every Illegal mexican immigrant is joining the military! WOW! That's amazing!
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but I have to give a serious answer anyways...

No they're not. You have to provide a driver's liscense and birth certificate to enlist.

reggie jax

10-13-2005, 12:19 AM

This country would be nothing without immigration.. it's just weird how when it was whites (Italians, Irish, etc.) immigrating they came over on huge fucking boats but mexicans have to sneek across the boarder.

I don't see how there's any logical reason these peopel would not want to be citizens.. I'm guessing they can't, cause more bad comes from not being a citizen than good. Down here we have guatemalans in this one part of town.. and they get robbed all the time cause they don't keep their money in a bank cause that requires ID which means you have to be here legally. I don't see why they would purposely make things harder on themselves... I'm guessing they can't become legal immigrants.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 12:26 AM

Every Illegal mexican immigrant is joining the military! WOW! That's amazing!

Some. http://www.armytimes.com/print.php?f=1-292925-2212746.php

And if you knew how to read properly, I said MEXICANS love joining that US military.

BurritoClock

10-13-2005, 03:43 AM

Some. http://www.armytimes.com/print.php?f=1-292925-2212746.php

And if you knew how to read properly, I said MEXICANS love joining that US military.

I know what you said, but the thread is entitled "Illegal Immigration: The Rise of Hate" so I was sarcastically pointing out your statement had nothing to do with this discussion.

fiveonionbagels

10-13-2005, 05:24 AM

Devastation

10-13-2005, 10:04 AM

Plus, you are all immigrants.

I'm not an immigrant. Neither were my parents or their parents.

We were all born here.

And nobody here is saying they have a problem with immigrants.

We have a problem with illegal immigrants.

mx6driven

10-13-2005, 11:51 AM

my mom came here ilegally and she has a job with a cosmetic compnay where she makes 75 grand a year.... is that a bad thing??? I dont think so. Go immigration

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 12:03 PM

I know what you said, but the thread is entitled "Illegal Immigration: The Rise of Hate" so I was sarcastically pointing out your statement had nothing to do with this discussion.

And, I was giving an example of an excuse that Americans usually always use when talking about why Mexican immigrants are bad for the US because they don't assimilate, so it is relevant to the discussion.

pidgeball6

10-13-2005, 12:06 PM

my mom came here ilegally and she has a job with a cosmetic compnay where she makes 75 grand a year.... is that a bad thing??? I dont think so. Go immigration
It wouldn't be if she'd come here legally. I'm all for immigrants coming to the US and doing well, but coming here illegally is wrong. Worse yet, now that your mom has a job and position she should be proud of, she'll always have to worry about it being taken away from her because of an illegal start. Unless she came to the US legally, she's just taking a job in the cosmetics industry from a hard working american who deserves it more.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 12:08 PM

she's just taking a job in the cosmetics industry from a hard working american who deserves it more.

So some poor Mexican selling oranges in the Freeway or some poor Mexican picking strawberrys for 12 hours a day is taking the job of a hardworking American?

Secret Squirrel

10-13-2005, 12:20 PM

So some poor Mexican selling oranges in the Freeway or some poor Mexican picking strawberrys for 12 hours a day is taking the job of a hardworking American?

A lot of them are being exploited as a source of cheap labor. Since they are illegal they can't very well complain about working for less than minimum wage. Good on your mom though for finding a good job here. Has she gotten a green card or citizenship since she arrived? Just curious.

I'm also all for immigration (legally). It's our heritage and many immigrants have made great contributions to their communities and to the country. I just want them to come legally.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 12:31 PM

A lot of them are being exploited as a source of cheap labor. Since they are illegal they can't very well complain about working for less than minimum wage. Good on your mom though for finding a good job here. Has she gotten a green card or citizenship since she arrived? Just curious.

I'm also all for immigration (legally). It's our heritage and many immigrants have made great contributions to their communities and to the country. I just want them to come legally.

These illegals that work in agriculture make the minimum, but work 12 to 14 hour days and have NO kind of benifits. I doubt any "hardworking" American would want to have that shitty job even at $10 dollars an hour.

And it takes around 10 years for the process of becoming a US resident. Alot of horrible things can happen to a family in 10 years in places like Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador.

I don't blame people for coming here it's only natural to come to the best place for you and your family.

I have NOTHING against illegals. Both my parents were wetbacks that met in the US. I have the United States and two wetbacks to thank for creating me.

mx6driven

10-13-2005, 12:34 PM

It wouldn't be if she'd come here legally. I'm all for immigrants coming to the US and doing well, but coming here illegally is wrong. Worse yet, now that your mom has a job and position she should be proud of, she'll always have to worry about it being taken away from her because of an illegal start. Unless she came to the US legally, she's just taking a job in the cosmetics industry from a hard working american who deserves it more.

she got her citizenship already. She got the job before she had her citizenship, the company was a small company in Miami with 2 stores and now is a bigger company with 8 stores around Florida and a store opening soon in California. She also got Lancome to be a partner with the company. So I dont understand how people think that her hard work isnt good enough just because she came to this country illegally. Why is it that a hard working american isnt the same as a hard working immigrant who probably had to work more to achieve. The hardworking american just had to be born in the US while the immigrant had to leave her entire family, learn new customs, and learn a new language. hmmm.

The only thing that I find wrong is illegal immigrants who come to the U.S. and do nothing with their lives and if they dont do something to benefit everyone else.

cervix

10-13-2005, 12:42 PM

I know some people who are here illegally, and every one of them has a good reason (though, I know not every illegal immigrant does). For instance, I know this Guatemalan man. His mother and two of his siblings were murdered because one of his brothers owed money to somebody shady. I think it had to do with drugs. The remaining members of his family were being targeted. He brought his wife and himself to America. They were denied citizenship. Honestly, what do you expect him to do? There was no protection for him in Guatemala or the surrounding areas. Nobody was doing a thing about his family being killed off. He just wanted to live.

Somebody said it's easy to get citizenship. That's definitely not true. It's easy enough to pass the tests and stuff, sure, but I'm afraid that doesn't automatically grant you citizenship. I have a friend who has lived in the US for 8 years. She keeps getting her green card renewed (so she is legal). She did everything she needs to do, she's just waiting for the government to grant her citizenship.

TFS

10-13-2005, 02:23 PM

With proper management, America would be able to take the strain. Hell, with proper management, a cheap, hard working labour force would be the best thing that could happen to America right now.

Plus, you are all immigrants.

Plus, DEEY TOOOK OUUUR DEEEERPS.
The point is America should not have to take the strain of illegal immigration since it's not a hard thing to become a citizen (just time consuming). There is no excuse for coming here and staying here in an illegal status. We're practically going door-to-door asking all illegals to just apply for citizenship before we kick them out.

And to be an immigrant, I would have had to be born somewhere other than the US. Last I checked, Pittsburgh is well within US borders and was even back in 1986. I'm not an immigrant. My ancestors were. They came here legally. One of my great grandfathers became a millionaire as a florist for creating a flower hybrid that sold amazingly well. His son added to that fortune and lost it all due to mob ties. My dad started with nothing. I'm going to start with about 10 grand. That's the American Dream in action.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 02:27 PM

First, let me start off by saying I have absolutely no problem with immigration.

The argument that illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't want because no American wants a job that pays $3.00/hour without benefits is bullshit. If an American got that job, they will not be getting paid that little and they wouldn't be denied benefits. That's why these companies would rather hire an illegal. They save money by doing so. It's not that the company can't find any Americans who want they job, they would just rather hire the guy that they don't have to pay as much for.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 02:41 PM

First, let me start off by saying I have absolutely no problem with immigration.

The argument that illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't want because no American wants a job that pays $3.00/hour without benefits is bullshit. If an American got that job, they will not be getting paid that little and they wouldn't be denied benefits.

That's bullshit. You honestly think some dude is going to pay $10 an hour and give benifits to Americans to do a low skilled job like picking fruit?

Picking fruit, cotton and Tobacco has ALWAYS been a bad payed low skilled job. Just ask African Americans and WHITES who picked cotton in the south how much money they made and all the benifits they recieved when their was no wetbacks they had to worry about losing their job to.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 03:02 PM

That's bullshit. You honestly think some dude is going to pay $10 an hour and give benifits to Americans to do a low skilled job like picking fruit?

No, that's why they hire illegals. That was my point. Even for a low skilled job, they are still required to pay Americans the minimum wage. With illegals, they don't have to. If there were no illegals, they would be required to hire Americans at the minimum wage and more Americans would be employed.

And why the hell does it always come down to picking fruit with you guys? Do you really think all 8 million illegals here pick fruit? For fucks sake, Walmart has been under attack for hiring illegal immigrants. In CT, our minimum wage is $7.10. Why the hell would our Walmart hire me for $7.10 when they can hire some illegal for $1.50? Same with countless amount of other companies.

whocares

10-13-2005, 03:04 PM

Two wrongs do not make a right.

It's wrong to hire illegals for doing those jobs, and because many Americans wouldn't do it does not justify it, the illegals are wrong too by well, being illegal. Yes, a mexican is saying this.

[Do not pay attention to my signature]

Deathmate

10-13-2005, 03:05 PM

The subject of illegal immigration, in my opinion, is becoming bad in the sense that racism is starting to come into play. You may dis agree with me, but arguments like they are taking our jobs, may not sound right to some. Hasnt that always been the argument against immigration? They are taking our jobs. Anyone feel this way.

You're right. I dislike short fat ugly filthy wetbacks. sue me. They stink, they're dirty, they're ugly, and they cant even speak english. Send them back to their shitty country, rather than letting them turn our country into a shithole like the one they came from. If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area go down to Army Street (now Cesar Chavez street) and see what the the wetbacks have done. They piss and shit all over the fucking sidewalk, they throw their trash all over the place, they're filthy as fuck and never take showers. Every time I go there I feel like I'm going to puke. :mad:

I dont know about you guys, but I get extremely pissed off when I see people acting so fucking filthy. It just aggrivates me. How can people act so fucking nasty?

Americanized mexicans are cool as fuck but the illegals straight out of mexico/guatemala/whatever shithole they came from are the most disgusting people you can meet. It must be the water down in mexico or something. They have a third world mindset.

They're third world stupid, and third world ugly.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 03:07 PM

No, that's why they hire illegals. That was my point. Even for a low skilled job, they are still required to pay Americans the minimum wage. With illegals, they don't have to. If there were no illegals, they would be required to hire Americans at the minimum wage and more Americans would be employed.

And why the hell does it always come down to picking fruit with you guys? Do you really think all 8 million illegals here pick fruit? For fucks sake, Walmart has been under attack for hiring illegal immigrants. In CT, our minimum wage is $7.10. Why the hell would our Walmart hire me for $7.10 when they can hire some illegal for $1.50? Same with countless amount of other companies.

That's bullshit once again. I have family members that work in Watsonville picking strawberrys some are legal and some are illegals and they ALL make the minimum.

And yes not every illegal has the worst of jobs. But it's so easy to blame the wetbacks for everything isn't it?

It's not like their employers bare any responsibility. You would think you guys would be more pissed with your fellow Americans for selling you guys out for a bunch of illegals.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 03:15 PM

These illegals that work in agriculture make the minimum, but work 12 to 14 hour days and have NO kind of benifits. I doubt any "hardworking" American would want to have that shitty job even at $10 dollars an hour.
You doubt? Why don't you base your argument off a little more than assumptions. I used to work 12 hour days at $7.10. Of course I'd do it for $10. Especially for teenagers trying to pay for college.

That's bullshit once again. I have family members that work in Watsonville picking strawberrys some are legal and some are illegals and they ALL make the minimum.
They should ALL be legal.

And yes not every illegal has the worst of jobs. But it's so easy to blame the wetbacks for everything isn't it?
I'm blaming the companies for hiring them in the first place. Like it or not, it's illegal to hire them.

It's not like their employers bare any responsibility. You would think you guys would be more pissed with your fellow Americans for selling you guys out for a bunch of illegals.
I am. Every single company that supports and/or hires illegals should be punished. I'm pissed off at Bush for not doing anything about the problem. What makes you think I'm only pissed off at the illegals?

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 03:28 PM

You doubt? Why don't you base your argument off a little more than assumptions. I used to work 12 hour days at $7.10. Of course I'd do it for $10. Especially for teenagers trying to pay for college.

Oh, I see. So you had a similar backbreaking job like picking Strawberries all day for $6.75 an hour?

They should ALL be legal.

But who would pick the fruits for the minimum for 14 hour days and sometimes 16 hour days in the summer?

I'm blaming the companies for hiring them in the first place. Like it or not, it's illegal to hire them.

I am. Every single company that supports and/or hires illegals should be punished. I'm pissed off at Bush for not doing anything about the problem. What makes you think I'm only pissed off at the illegals?

Well IMO companies have the biggest fault for the illegals coming here. If they wouldn't hire them they wouldn't be here. And, I wasnt necessarily saying you blame illegals, but that's the common belief when talking about illegals. It's ALWAYS the illegals fault and never the employers fault.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 03:38 PM

Oh, I see. So you had a similar backbreaking job like picking Strawberries all day for $6.75 an hour?
First of all, I have done farmwork, but that's not the job I worked 12 hours at. Secondly, your again assuming those are the only jobs illegals have.

Think about it this way. If there were no illegals, companies would be required to hire Americans, right? But what if Americans don't want to pick fruit for minimum wage? Then the company would be forced to raise their wages in order to get workers. Secondly, there are plenty of highschool students who would gladly take those kind of jobs. I had a friend in high school who worked in construction for minimum wage.

But who would pick the fruits for the minimum for 14 hour days and sometimes 16 hour days in the summer?[QUOTE]

See above.

[QUOTE]Well IMO companies have the biggest fault for the illegals coming here. If they wouldn't hire them they wouldn't be here. And, I wasnt necessarily saying you blame illegals, but that's the common belief when talking about illegals. It's ALWAYS the illegals fault and never the employers fault.

I completely agree.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 03:57 PM

Sketcher
First of all, I have done farmwork, but that's not the job I worked 12 hours at. Secondly, your again assuming those are the only jobs illegals have.

I'm not assuming that illegals only have those jobs, but what, I am saying is that illegals do work in EXTREMELY shitty jobs like picking fruits and Americans don't.

Sketcher
Think about it this way. If there were no illegals, companies would be required to hire Americans, right? But what if Americans don't want to pick fruit for minimum wage? Then the company would be forced to raise their wages in order to get workers. Secondly, there are plenty of highschool students who would gladly take those kind of jobs. I had a friend in high school who worked in construction for minimum wage.

And like, I said before if that was the case why didn't Black and White AMERICANS demand to get payed more for picking cotton?

You know why they didn't? Because their employers would of told them to go fuck themselves. That's why picking crap has NEVER been a descent paying job. LOW SKILLED jobs will always be a badly payed job in America. The US was built on cheap labor. What the hell makes you think it's going to change now?

Also some high schoolers would obviously take some of these shitty jobs.

reggie jax

10-13-2005, 03:57 PM

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 04:05 PM

Does anyone have the details on exactly what it takes to enter this country legally and become a resident? Not even a citizen, just a legal alien? Cause I can't see any logical reason why these people wouldn't want to be here legally.. I think a lot of the time it's that they can't.

It takes 10 years to become a resident. My half brother is an illegal and he wanted me to help him become a resident but when he found out it would take 10 years he was like fuck it.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 04:08 PM

I'm not assuming that illegals only have those jobs, but what, I am saying is that illegals do work in EXTREMELY shitty jobs like picking fruits and Americans don't.
Is this entire debate going to involve you repeating the same things over and over? You already said this and the reason I gave for it is because employers would rather hire someone they don't have to pay as much for - hence illegals. It's not because Americans don't want those jobs.

And like, I said before if that was the case why didn't Black and White AMERICANS demand to get payed more for picking cotton?

You know why they didn't? Because their employers would of told them to go fuck themselves. That's why picking crap has NEVER been a descent paying job. LOW SKILLED jobs will always be a badly payed job in America. The USA was build on cheap labor. What the hell makes you think it's going to change now?

Like I said already, if there were no illegals, employers would have no choice but to raise their wages or else they would have no employers - hence higher paid Americans. If there were no illegals, companies would rather pay Americans a good amount of money rather than go out of buisness.

reggie jax

10-13-2005, 04:09 PM

But you don't know the exact details? What goes on during those 10 years? I tried to google it without any luck.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 04:12 PM

It takes 10 years to become a resident. My half brother is an illegal and he wanted me to help him become a resident but when he found out it would take 10 years he was like fuck it.

If your half brother isn't willing to become American, he doesn't deserve American benefits. It's harsh, but true.

If he really wanted to become a citizen, he wouldn't let a minor inconvenience stop him.

reggie jax

10-13-2005, 04:14 PM

Like I said already, if there were no illegals, employers would have no choice but to raise their wages or else they would have no employers - hence higher paid Americans. If there were no illegals, companies would rather pay Americans a good amount of money rather than go out of buisness.That's rather naive.. they'd have to pay them minimum at least but it doesn't get much higher than that most of the time for the jobs we're talking about.. it's not like illegals are coming in and being brain surgeons for 3.00 an hour. There's tons of legal jobs that pay only minimum wage to "hardworking Americans" cause if you don't want that job for minimum wage and part time benefits, there's always someone else who does. They only pay Americans minimum wage cause they are required to by law.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Is this entire debate going to involve you repeating the same things over and over? You already said this and the reason I gave for it is because employers would rather hire someone they don't have to pay as much for - hence illegals. It's not because Americans don't want those jobs.

If you keep on claiming Americans would work in strawberry fields, I will always call bullshit on it. And why do you keep on saying employers would rather hire someone else they don't have to pay as much? Are you saying that their are ZERO Americans working in minimum paying jobs?

Like I said already, if there were no illegals, employers would have no choice but to raise their wages or else they would have no employers - hence higher paid Americans. If there were no illegals, companies would rather pay Americans a good amount of money rather than go out of buisness.

I don't know how times, I have to repeat this but LOW SKILLED jobs have ALWAYS been badly payed jobs even to AMERICANS! Tell me something prior to all these illegals what low skilled jobs that illegals are working now were descent paying jobs?

And Reggie jax, I don't know the exact details but it takes 10 to 12 years to become a resident nowadays. That's why my brother would rather wait for my niece to get older so she could make her dad legal sooner then, I can.

If your half brother isn't willing to become American, he doesn't deserve American benefits. It's harsh, but true.

If he really wanted to become a citizen, he wouldn't let a minor inconvenience stop him.

Minor inconvinience?

How the hell is having to wait more then a decade to become a resident a "minor inconviniece"?

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 04:23 PM

That's rather naive.. they'd have to pay them minimum at least but it doesn't get much higher than that most of the time for the jobs we're talking about..

The buisness I work for, there are about 200 employees. We ALL make minimum wage which is $7.10 here. The only people who make more are the managers who make $8.00. None of us are illegals. That buisness had absolutely no problem finding 200+ Americans to work for minimum wage.

Also, 70% of us are high school/college students. Those are the kind of people who would take the jobs that illegals currently have.

If you keep on claiming Americans would work in strawberry fields, I will always call bullshit on it. And why do you keep on saying employers would rather hire someone else they don't have to pay as much? Are you saying that their are ZERO Americans working in minimum paying jobs?
Call bullshit all you want, you still won't be right. Guess what. About three miles from my house, we have an apple orchard. It's HUGE. They have signs everywhere saying that the apples are picked fresh everyday. I know that to be true because I actually know someone who works there. Every worker there is American. Don't fucking tell me Americans don't want to pick fruit.

I don't know how times, I have to repeat this but LOW SKILLED jobs have ALWAYS been badly payed jobs even to AMERICANS! Tell me something prior to all these illegals what low skilled jobs that illegals are working now were descent paying jobs?
You act like there are no low-skilled Americans, like every American is a college scholar who all work in offices. There are more than enough Americans who are only skilled to do those kind of jobs.

Minor inconvinience?

How the hell is having to wait more then a decade to become a resident a "minor inconviniece"?
If he truely wanted to become a citizen of the US, he would wait. The fact that he didn't shows that it really wasn't that important to him.

reggie jax

10-13-2005, 04:25 PM

What company do you work for?

And it sounds like you're agreeing with me in your post.. they pay you minimum wage.. that's not good pay man. That's shit unless you still live with your parents and don't have any financial responsibilities.

whocares

10-13-2005, 04:34 PM

I say, if there aren't americans that want to do those jobs or if there are empty spots, then give it to those who abuse the welfare system. So, they do at least something good.

That would solve matters better. :)

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 04:38 PM

What company do you work for?
I work for a small family owned amusement park. And we have alot of employees who work in the kitchens washing dishes and maintance who just go around picking up trash - low skilled jobs that Lost_Cause thinks Americans don't want.

And it sounds like you're agreeing with me in your post.. they pay you minimum wage.. that's not good pay man. That's shit unless you still live with your parents and don't have any financial responsibilities.
I'm just using that job to get through college.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 04:47 PM

Call bullshit all you want, you still won't be right. Guess what. About three miles from my house, we have an apple orchard. It's HUGE. They have signs everywhere saying that the apples are picked fresh everyday. I know that to be true because I actually know someone who works there. Every worker there is American. Don't fucking tell me Americans don't want to pick fruit.

Oh yeah that's why when, I went to Watsonville and went to the place my uncle works at their were SO MANY Americans working for the minimum wage their.:rolleyes:

And how the fuck are you going to compare California to where you live? California supplies the US with MOST of it's fruit so that means their is alot of jobs for Americans their to pick fruits, but yet their nowhere in site.

You act like there are no low-skilled Americans, like every American is a college scholar who all work in offices. There are more than enough Americans who are only skilled to do those kind of jobs.

Bullshit. I never said their wasnt' any low skilled American workers all, I said their was alot of illegals working those jobs and that some Americans wouldn't take some jobs that illegals take.

If he truely wanted to become a citizen of the US, he would wait. The fact that he didn't shows that it really wasn't that important to him.

Ugh.........He is waiting, so it must be important to him. And if it wasn't important for him to be an American he wouldn't of risked his life coming to the US.

whocares

10-13-2005, 04:50 PM

Ugh.........He is waiting, so it must be important to him. And if it wasn't important for him to be an American he wouldn't of risked his life coming to the US.
Wait a minute... it's a fact that many mexicans illegaly go to the USA just because they hate their jobs in Mexico, or because they don't want to work here at all.

I don't think that they exactly want to be american because it's "important" to them.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 04:52 PM

Wait a minute... it's a fact that many mexicans illegaly go to the USA just because they hate their jobs in Mexico, or because they don't want to work here at all.

I don't think that they exactly want to be american because it's "important" to them.

So what are trying to say?

That it's not important for someone to leave their shitty country for the US and become an American so they could help their family more back home?

whocares

10-13-2005, 04:58 PM

So what are trying to say?

That it's not important for someone to leave their shitty country for the US and become an American so they could help their family more back home?
I know it's important to them, but what do they care for is for helping their family. Not necessarily being a US citizen. This is for the most part of illegals.

I gotta say that, well, your brother does show that he does care about being a US citizen for waiting those 10 years. Most mexicans would have turned that down already.

Also, I agree 10 years is too much time. Anyway, can't he work and be able to help his family without being a USA citizen?

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 05:06 PM

Oh yeah that's why when, I went to Watsonville and went to the place my uncle works at their were SO MANY Americans working for the minimum wage their.:rolleyes:

And how the fuck are you going to compare California to where you live? California supplies the US with MOST of it's fruit so that means their is alot of jobs for Americans their to pick fruits, but yet their nowhere in site.

California also has a HELL alot more illegals than Connecticut. Which means the employers there have more to choose from. And they choose to hire the ones they don't have to pay as much - illegals. But the fact that Connecticut has much less illegals yet still has absolutely no problem finding Americans to pick fruit, proves your argument is bullshit and nothing more.

Nice job digging your hole even deeper though. You helped my argument nicely.

Bullshit. I never said their wasnt' any low skilled American workers all, I said their was alot of illegals working those jobs and that some Americans wouldn't take some jobs that illegals take.
If that were true, the states with virtually no illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to find anyone for those jobs. Yet they do.

Ugh.........He is waiting, so it must be important to him. And if it wasn't important for him to be an American he wouldn't of risked his life coming to the US.

Well, since you said he said "fuck it" made it look like he gave up on the idea of becomming a citizen.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 05:06 PM

I know it's important to them, but what do they care for is for helping their family. Not necessarily being a US citizen. This is for the most part of illegals.

I gotta say that, well, your brother does show that he does care about being a US citizen for waiting those 10 years. Most mexicans would have turned that down already.

Also, I agree 10 years is too much time. Anyway, can't he work and be able to help his family without being a USA citizen?

My brother is Contactor for a Construction company. He builds houses and makes a pretty good living. Now my brother would make more money if he was an American so that's really important to him, because he has kids and has more family to takecare of in his third world country homeland.

He has been working for awhile now being an illegal but like, I said if you are an American it makes it easier for you because you can get a drivers license, You can attend College and you don't have to worry about being deported and leaving your American familiy behind so they could fend for themselves.

California also has a HELL alot more illegals than Connecticut. Which means the employers there have more to choose from. And they choose to hire the ones they don't have to pay as much - illegals. But the fact that Connecticut has much less illegals yet still has absolutely no problem finding Americans to pick fruit, proves your argument is bullshit and nothing more.

Nice job digging your hole even deeper though. You helped my argument nicely.

Wow it's really pathetic how you keep going to this argument but can't seem to explain why Blacks and Whites were getting payed shitty wages in the south to pick shit just like the illegals are doing now.

So tell me something why did poor Blacks and Whites get payed low wages to pick cotton? Since we are going by your ridicolous argument that American employers had and would pay more to American low skilled workers.

If that were true, the states with virtually no illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to find anyone for those jobs. Yet they do.

No shit. Who said their were ZERO American low skilled workers?

Well, since you said he said "fuck it" made it look like he gave up on the idea of becomming a citizen.

No he gave up on the idea of me helping him, so my niece could help him sooner then, I can.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 05:38 PM

Wow it's really pathetic how you keep going to this argument but can't seem to explain why Blacks and Whites were getting payed shitty wages in the south to pick shit just like the illegals are doing now.
How long ago are we talking about? Before minimum wage? If so, no shit. But we're not talking about before minimum wage. We're talking about now. And RIGHT NOW, most illegals are getting paid less than minimum wage for jobs that Americans would be getting paid minimum wage for if there were no illegals.

So tell me something why did poor Blacks and Whites get payed low wages to pick cotton? Since we are going by your ridicolous argument that American employers had and would pay more to American low skilled workers.
They would pay American low skilled workers more than low skilled illegal workers. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE REQUIRED TO. So to get around having to pay their workers more, they hire illegals. What part of this are you not understanding?

No shit. Who said their were ZERO American low skilled workers?
So you agree there are? Then why aren't you fighting to allow your fellow Americans to get those jobs over an illegal?

droogsteve

10-13-2005, 07:46 PM

Wow it's really pathetic how you keep going to this argument but can't seem to explain why Blacks and Whites were getting payed shitty wages in the south to pick shit just like the illegals are doing now.

When was that, during the depression? People also worked seven day weeks under appalling conditions and died by the score because of a complete disregard for worker safety then too. You really want the country to return to those good old days? :rolleyes:

Here's the explanation how illegals are hurting us: supply and demand. When a market is flooded with a commodity, the price of that commodity plummets. Labor is a commodity that businesses require to operate. When the market is flooded with cheap labor, the value of that labor plummets. For example, in the inner city where there is a large pool of unskilled labor available, a McDonalds worker can expect to be paid about $6.00 an hour. However, if you go to a suburb where there is a limited supply of unskilled labor, the rate of pay for that labor rises. I've seen a Burger King in a New Jersey suburb that paid $12 an hour.

Illegals are much worse than a normal glut of cheap labor because as illegals, they pay no mind to labor laws and work for below the minimum wage, artificially lowering the prevailing wage for ALL unskilled labor. Further hurting legal workers is the fact that employers save money by hiring illegals in other ways, such as not having to pay unemployment or disability insurance or payroll taxes.

I've heard the lame "if the illegals are willing to work harder for less, good for them" argument, and it's bullshit. Have you seen the conditions that most illegals live under? Do you want the entire American working class reduced to that level? Do you want America reduced to a third world nation with only two classes: rich and poor? That's what illegal immigration is doing to this country.

It cracks me up how the apologists for the illegals assign no responsibility for their plight on their own nation's government and instead brand Americans who want to stop this flood as xenophobes or racists. It sucks that Mexico is a corrupt shithole, but that's not our problem. It's the US government's responsibility to ensure the rights of AMERICANS, not anyone who can sneak over the border, and it's about time that someone in power had the balls to stand up and say so. The American working class is being replaced by the American poor. Republican big business types want the cheap labor to keep the profits rolling in, and the liberal Democrats will blindly embrace any bullshit as long as it's wrapped in the banner of "multi-culturism" or "diversity", no matter how disastrous it is to this country. The American working class is caught between their two ideologies, and are getting screwed from both sides.

SectorNine

10-13-2005, 08:34 PM

WELL PUT DROOG
Lost_cause. This is a concept you are failing to grasp.
If there were ZERO illegals working at "Farm A", the farmer would need a work force. This would require raising his hiring pay to a level that becomes attractive to people looking for work. Some places that may be $12/hr. others that may be minimum wage. There is a profit to grief ratio there (At what amount am I willing to pick grapes?). If a farmer wants to pay me $100/hr to pick grapes, I am there. That is my amount. For someone else it may be $10/hr. Like Droog said. It depends on the area and it's profit to grief ratio.

One of my main problems with illegal's is the fact that they are earning the money tax free. They then send the majority back to Mexico. I heard somewhere an amount of like 30 million a year or something of that nature (It could be more or less I'm not exactly sure). That should be spent in our economy. If a legal American has the job, the money is taxed, and in most cases spent back within the American economy. So there is a drain on the economy.

Then you have the fact that we are required to educate the children of illegals. This costs money. Not to mention that this child speaks no english. Now my son's teacher has to spend extra time with this student taking away time that could be used helping my child. (My wife is a teacher)

Hospitals have to treat illegals. These illegals have no insurance, so the hospital ends up not being paid. Guess who pays for this? Yup you and me. Hospitals have to raise health care costs to make up for the money lost treating illegals.

The point is that illegals are a drain on the economy. We have enough of those legally in the U.S., we don't need more.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 08:37 PM

It's the US government's responsibility to ensure the rights of AMERICANS, not anyone who can sneak over the border, and it's about time that someone in power had the balls to stand up and say so.
Yup. But the sad thing is, anyone who tries to run for a high enough office to be able to do something about it will be deemed a racist.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 09:20 PM

How long ago are we talking about? Before minimum wage? If so, no shit. But we're not talking about before minimum wage.

Their is been minimum wage standards since 1938 their were still alot of people picking Cotton at that time until like the early 60's when Cotton gathering became more mechanized. Yet those Americans still didn't get more then minimum wage so being American didn't help those poor bastards one bit.

We're talking about now. And RIGHT NOW, most illegals are getting paid less than minimum wage for jobs that Americans would be getting paid minimum wage for if there were no illegals.

Most illegals are getting payed less then minimum wage? Where do you get your facts from? ALL the illegals, I met get atleast the minimum. And, I have met hundreds here in LA. Also the ones getting payed less then minimum aren't big in numbers. I actually know a couple of Koreans who run sweatshops in the LA Fashion District in downton and they do pay those poor Chinese workers less then the minimum, but the US doesn't have that many sweatshops were people are getting payed less the minimum. And sure they are illegal laborers who get payed under the table, but guess what? Their is ALOT of black laborers in the South who get payed under the table like illegals do aswell.

They would pay American low skilled workers more than low skilled illegal workers. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE REQUIRED TO. So to get around having to pay their workers more, they hire illegals. What part of this are you not understanding?

Bullshit. Their required to pay the minimum no more no less. American companies are required to do whatever the fuck they can to make a profit NOT help the American people.

So you agree there are? Then why aren't you fighting to allow your fellow Americans to get those jobs over an illegal?

Why? Because, I know certain Americans will not take some jobs illegals would take. Why would, I fight for Americans to go work in North Carolina Tobacco fields or California Strawberry fields?

TFS

10-13-2005, 09:45 PM

Yup. But the sad thing is, anyone who tries to run for a high enough office to be able to do something about it will be deemed a racist.
I volunteer. People think I'm racist anyways even though I say pretty much the same thing droog and anyone else with common sense says about it.

Catch is we're gonna have to wait a few decades...

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 09:48 PM

Most illegals are getting payed less then minimum wage? Where do you get your facts from?
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscaltranscript.html

ALL the illegals, I met get atleast the minimum. And, I have met hundreds here in LA.
Bull-fucking-shit. I don't believe for one second you talked to "hundreds" of illegals and asked them ALL how much they make. Your a horrible liar, you know that?

Bullshit. Their required to pay the minimum no more no less. American companies are required to do whatever the fuck they can to make a profit NOT help the American people.
Wrong. They're required to hire Americans and Americans only - hence helping Americans.

Why? Because, I know certain Americans will not take some jobs illegals would take. Why would, I fight for Americans to go work in North Carolina Tobacco fields or California Strawberry fields?
Because it's their fucking country! You denying millions of Americans jobs because you feel sorry for 8 million crimminals!

Fact: There are more than enough Americans who would gladly take those jobs.

And I would personally like to see you try to resopond to Droogs post.

Spike Lee

10-13-2005, 10:05 PM

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 10:10 PM

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscaltranscript.html

And were exactly does it show most illegals are getting payed less then minimum?

Bull-fucking-shit. I don't believe for one second you talked to "hundreds" of illegals and asked them ALL how much they make. Your a horrible liar, you know that?

I don't give a fuck what you believe. Out of ALL the jobs, I had at restaurants illegals were making the same as me the MINIMUM. So, I guess family members and friends are lying to me so, I could feel bad because they make less then minumum are being exploited.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Sketcher][
Wrong. They're required to hire Americans and Americans only - hence helping Americans.

Huh? So your telling me when someone hires a person for the minimum their actually helping them by not giving them an extra dollar? Yeah when places like Walmart hire Americans and pay them the minimum and give them ZERO benifits their really "helping" them, huh?:rolleyes:

Because it's their fucking country! You denying millions of Americans jobs because you feel sorry for 8 million crimminals!

Fact: There are more than enough Americans who would gladly take those jobs.

Then why the fuck don't they? Who's stopping them from filling an application?

[
And I would personally like to see you try to resopond to Droogs post.

I wasn't going to respond to his post and SectorNine's post because they basically have the same argument you have, but if it makes your day ok.

TFS

10-13-2005, 10:11 PM

Illegal Immigration happens because of the following:

Lack of Jobs
Visa process take awhile
People willing to hire them

What about Puerto Rico? They enjoy the benefits of taxpayer money without paying taxes.
I have a huge problem with that.

Especially since all through out high school for me (in Florida), the huge PR population was constantly parading around PR-pride junk and acting like their shit didn't stink because of their ethnicity. Seriously, they responded to people asking where they get off pulling some of the stuff they did with "I'm Puerto Rican, bitch, you wanna mess with this? No, I didn't think so. No bitch like you can take us." (that last sentence was said while pointing at a PR flag print on his shirt.)

I admit, a large number, if not most Puerto Ricans are cool and not obnoxious and just wanna go about their business like the rest of us do, but the ones that pull that shit above, especially with PR's economic status with the US, really make them all look like shit.

We really need to start living up to the rep we have around the world as cold-hearted bastards and tell all these moochers, whether it be government funding without taxation or illegal immigration, that they either get all hands and feet inside the bandwagon while the ride is in motion, or we're pulling the feeding tube.

Spike Lee

10-13-2005, 10:14 PM

I have a huge problem with that.

Especially since all through out high school for me (in Florida), the huge PR population was constantly parading around PR-pride junk and acting like their shit didn't stink because of their ethnicity. Seriously, they responded to people asking where they get off pulling some of the stuff they did with "I'm Puerto Rican, bitch, you wanna mess with this? No, I didn't think so. No bitch like you can take us." (that last sentence was said while pointing at a PR flag print on his shirt.)

I admit, a large number, if not most Puerto Ricans are cool and not obnoxious and just wanna go about their business like the rest of us do, but the ones that pull that shit above, especially with PR's economic status with the US, really make them all look like shit.

We really need to start living up to the rep we have around the world as cold-hearted bastards and tell all these moochers, whether it be government funding without taxation or illegal immigration, that they either get all hands and feet inside the bandwagon while the ride is in motion, or we're pulling the feeding tube.
This is something that should never be in an argument.

Face Plant

10-13-2005, 10:26 PM

Big Agri has their lobbyists in Washington, what do you think they are saying to house members who take their cash. Something like, "Keep those borders loose, make it look like your doing something, but don't really do anything, we need cheap labor".

Its not just unskilled but skilled. Google Silicon Valley, Indians, Chinese and see the news items you get. It always goes something like this, China and India offer equally educated, but cheaper labor etc etc. Ok so these guys are not illeagal but the pricipal is still the same, lower labor costs.

Before it was always the underclass who was to suffer because of illeagal immigration. But now its well paid middle class jobs going down the drain.

Lost__Cause

10-13-2005, 10:43 PM

When was that, during the depression? People also worked seven day weeks under appalling conditions and died by the score because of a complete disregard for worker safety then too. You really want the country to return to those good old days? :rolleyes:

When did, I say we should go back to those days?

Here's the explanation how illegals are hurting us: supply and demand. When a market is flooded with a commodity, the price of that commodity plummets. Labor is a commodity that businesses require to operate. When the market is flooded with cheap labor, the value of that labor plummets. For example, in the inner city where there is a large pool of unskilled labor available, a McDonalds worker can expect to be paid about $6.00 an hour. However, if you go to a suburb where there is a limited supply of unskilled labor, the rate of pay for that labor rises. I've seen a Burger King in a New Jersey suburb that paid $12 an hour.

So your saying that in places like NYC back in the 70's when their wasn't that many illegals their like their is now places like Burger King were paying descent wages?

Anywhere their is poor people the wages won't be high. You don't need illegals to bring down wages if you already have poor people in the area that are willing to work the shitty jobs because they have no choice.

Illegals are much worse than a normal glut of cheap labor because as illegals, they pay no mind to labor laws and work for below the minimum wage, artificially lowering the prevailing wage for ALL unskilled labor. Further hurting legal workers is the fact that employers save money by hiring illegals in other ways, such as not having to pay unemployment or disability insurance or payroll taxes.

Where is your proof that every illegal works for less then minimum?

I've heard the lame "if the illegals are willing to work harder for less, good for them" argument, and it's bullshit. Have you seen the conditions that most illegals live under? Do you want the entire American working class reduced to that level? Do you want America reduced to a third world nation with only two classes: rich and poor? That's what illegal immigration is doing to this country.

The middle class in the US has been dying for awhile and US companies are mostly to blame. When Ford and GM left Detroit to open plants in Mexico was it the illegals fault? Or how about when all these US companies move to China is it the illegals fault? Illegal immigration ain't the sole reason why the US is becoming a country were the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

It cracks me up how the apologists for the illegals assign no responsibility for their plight on their own nation's government and instead brand Americans who want to stop this flood as xenophobes or racists. It sucks that Mexico is a corrupt shithole, but that's not our problem. It's the US government's responsibility to ensure the rights of AMERICANS, not anyone who can sneak over the border, and it's about time that someone in power had the balls to stand up and say so. The American working class is being replaced by the American poor. Republican big business types want the cheap labor to keep the profits rolling in, and the liberal Democrats will blindly embrace any bullshit as long as it's wrapped in the banner of "multi-culturism" or "diversity", no matter how disastrous it is to this country. The American working class is caught between their two ideologies, and are getting screwed from both sides.

That's why the US has the military guarding the Syrian border instead of the Mexican border because the American Companies can screw over the American people because politicians allow it to go on. The US is mostly to blame for the illegals in the US.

Sketcher

10-13-2005, 11:52 PM

And were exactly does it show most illegals are getting payed less then minimum?
Sorry, posted the wrong article. Although that one is a damn good one on how they are hurting America. Here:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/business/20040310-115034-3697r.htm

I don't give a fuck what you believe. Out of ALL the jobs, I had at restaurants illegals were making the same as me the MINIMUM.
If I have to post sources, so do you. Word of mouth doesn't get you much around here.

Huh? So your telling me when someone hires a person for the minimum their actually helping them by not giving them an extra dollar? Yeah when places like Walmart hire Americans and pay them the minimum and give them ZERO benifits their really "helping" them, huh?:rolleyes:
No, I'm telling you that when an American is hired to do a minimum wage job, it is benefiting him or her rather than not being hired at all due to illegals.

Then why the fuck don't they? Who's stopping them from filling an application?
THEY ARE! How many times do I have to say that?! But they aren't being hired because the employers would rather have cheap labor.

I wasn't going to respond to his post and SectorNine's post because they basically have the same argument you have, but if it makes your day ok.
Actually, Droog touched on several good points that I missed.

Look at the states that have little to no illegal immigrants. There are Americans doing low-skilled labor. Washing dishes, working as maids, janitors, cutting grass, etc. Those places don't have illegals and there are plenty of Americans working those jobs. But in the places where illegal immigrants make up a higher percentage of the population, it's the illegals that are being hired because they are CHEAP LABOR.

Answer this: If there were no illegal immigrants in this country, do you really think companies that hire them would go bankrupt? Fuck no, they'd hire high school or college students who don't mind working for minimum wage. Even adults who dropped out of school and have no skills. And if they absolutely have to, they would raise pay in order to get more workers. But either way, the company would do what it has to to survive, including hiring Americans.

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 01:23 AM

Sorry, posted the wrong article. Although that one is a damn good one on how they are hurting America. Here:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/business/20040310-115034-3697r.htm

Nice article too bad it contradicts your argument.

"One local real estate agent said the need for workers has become so dire that illegal laborers are earning a minimum of $10 to $12 an hour for simple yard work or home-maintenance projects."

Now tell me why can't real state agents find Americans to do simple yard work for $10 to $12 an hour?

Also you yet to provide a source that MOST illegals work for less then the minimum. The only place illegals make less then the minumum is in Labor work like construction.

If I have to post sources, so do you. Word of mouth doesn't get you much around here.

Word of mouth? Yeah, I grew up in the illegal capital of the US known as Los Angeles. I know what the fuck, I'm talking about. I don't need sources to know what illegals go through especially since both my parents were fucking wetbacks.

No, I'm telling you that when an American is hired to do a minimum wage job, it is benefiting him or her rather than not being hired at all due to illegals.

Obvioulsy it's benifiting them but in the long run who wants to stay in a lowskilled job their entire life?

So these shitty jobs are not really helping them because cheap labor jobs have no future. If you have a lowskilled job and don't go to school you will likely remain a low skilled worker for the rest of your life.

THEY ARE! How many times do I have to say that?! But they aren't being hired because the employers would rather have cheap labor.

They ain't being hired? Then how the hell do Mega stores like Walmart operate? Are ALL of Walmart employees that get the minimum and get no benifits illegals?

Actually, Droog touched on several good points that I missed.

Look at the states that have little to no illegal immigrants. There are Americans doing low-skilled labor. Washing dishes, working as maids, janitors, cutting grass, etc. Those places don't have illegals and there are plenty of Americans working those jobs. But in the places where illegal immigrants make up a higher percentage of the population, it's the illegals that are being hired because they are CHEAP LABOR.

Really?

One local real estate agent said the need for workers has become so dire that illegal laborers are earning a minimum of $10 to $12 an hour for simple yard work or home-maintenance projects.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/business/20040310-115034-3697r.htm

Hmm.....:idea:

Maybe they should post more help wanted signs so more Americans will know their is goodpaying cheap labor jobs available to them.;)

Answer this: If there were no illegal immigrants in this country, do you really think companies that hire them would go bankrupt? Fuck no, they'd hire high school or college students who don't mind working for minimum wage. Even adults who dropped out of school and have no skills. And if they absolutely have to, they would raise pay in order to get more workers. But either way, the company would do what it has to to survive, including hiring Americans.

Why do you assume that EVERY company that hires some illegals don't have any legal workers working along them? You said it yourself their are Americans that take minimum paying jobs so why assume every company only hires illegals?

Out of all the jobs, I had their have ALWAYS been legal and some illegal workers. And, I'm an American highschool dropout that doesn't for NOW mind working for the minimum.

Sketcher

10-14-2005, 02:12 AM

Word of mouth? Yeah, I grew up in the illegal capital of the US known as Los Angeles. I know what the fuck, I'm talking about. I don't need sources to know what illegals go through especially since both my parents were fucking wetbacks.
And I grew up in an area of America where there aren't so many illegal immigrants yet every job that you claim Americans don't want are filled with Americans. I guess I don't need sources either then.

Obvioulsy it's benifiting them but in the long run who wants to stay in a lowskilled job their entire life?
Low skilled Americans would have no choice but to keep those kind of jobs. And when the high school students to quit those jobs to move on to the work force, other high school students are there to take their place. You think we only have a limited supply of students?

They ain't being hired? Then how the hell do Mega stores like Walmart operate? Are ALL of Walmart employees that get the minimum and get no benifits illegals?
If Walmart hired nobody but illegals, the INS would put them out of buisness so fast they wouldn't know what hit them. They hire just as many as they can get away with.

Why do you assume that EVERY company that hires some illegals don't have any legal workers working along them? You said it yourself their are Americans that take minimum paying jobs so why assume every company only hires illegals?
I never did. Read above.

Out of all the jobs, I had their have ALWAYS been legal and some illegal workers. And, I'm an American highschool dropout that doesn't for NOW mind working for the minimum.

Since your a high school dropout, expect nothing more than minimum.

I'm going to say this again since your not understanding this. If there were not illegals in this country, the companies would be forced to hire Americans in order to keep from going out of buisness, correct? Ok, now IF there aren't enough people applying for those jobs, the comany would be forced to raise wages and befefits in order to attract more Americans. Because of that, those jobs would no longer be minimum wage jobs and more Americans would want them. Buisness owners aren't stupid. They aren't going to go out of buisness just because they can't find cheap labor.

SectorNine

10-14-2005, 02:31 AM

If there were not illegals in this country, the companies would be forced to hire Americans in order to keep from going out of buisness, correct? Ok, now IF there aren't enough people applying for those jobs, the comany would be forced to raise wages and befefits in order to attract more Americans. Because of that, those jobs would no longer be minimum wage jobs and more Americans would want them. Buisness owners aren't stupid. They aren't going to go out of buisness just because they can't find cheap labor.

This is a concept that he just is not going to be able to grasp. You've said it, I've said it, and Droog has said it. It's like beating a dead horse. Not to sound like a jerk, but maybe a high school drop-out just can't understand the economics that justify our point of view.

Sketcher

10-14-2005, 02:38 AM

Maverick

10-14-2005, 02:49 AM

BlueMind

10-14-2005, 03:00 AM

Nope. They way I see it is they are over burdening our healthcare, courts, jails and public school system.

I agree. But the issue of illegals gets touchy sometimes. I have a Mexican friend. He's illegal. He came here when he was a few months old. I think his mother had a work Visa but nothing was done about the child.

He has lived in America his whole life. He was even a fellow commanding officer in my ROTC program. The guy is still illegal and can't go to college. His legality is being determined by INS and hopefully he'll have residency within a month.

Is it his fault that he's illegal? Should he be forced to move to a place where he has never lived or even visited?

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 03:28 AM

This is a concept that he just is not going to be able to grasp. You've said it, I've said it, and Droog has said it. It's like beating a dead horse. Not to sound like a jerk, but maybe a high school drop-out just can't understand the economics that justify our point of view.

Yeah your right because since the longest time US companies have been paying Americans what they actually deserve. Gimme a fucking a break. You think companies become rich because they pay the poor Americans they hire well?

Ask the supervisor of a Walmart in Nashville why the fuck they only pay the minimum to the Americans they hire their. Oh it must be the flood of illegals in Nashville that keep the wages low, huh? Because god knows all the illegals in the states where their are FEW OR ZERO ILLEGALS still somehow magically manage to keep the wages low.

pidgeball6

10-14-2005, 11:22 AM

I agree. But the issue of illegals gets touchy sometimes. I have a Mexican friend. He's illegal. He came here when he was a few months old. I think his mother had a work Visa but nothing was done about the child.

He has lived in America his whole life. He was even a fellow commanding officer in my ROTC program. The guy is still illegal and can't go to college. His legality is being determined by INS and hopefully he'll have residency within a month.

Is it his fault that he's illegal? Should he be forced to move to a place where he has never lived or even visited?
Yes, it's his fault he's illegal. It sounds similar to the same crappy situation Chewy' been in lately, but it's the truth. He sounds like a hard working average Joe who's been caught up in the red tape that's supposed to slow down some of the illegal traffic into the US. He should have no problem, given his history and willingness to gain citizenship, acquiring the right paperwork and putting the issue to bed for good.
Yeah your right because since the longest time US companies have been paying Americans what they actually deserve. Gimme a fucking a break. You think companies become rich because they pay the poor Americans they hire well?
My company requires some of the shittiest labor there is, installing A/C systems in 150-160 degree attics in Houston. The illegal labor pool is bigger here than in most other cities around the nation. Some would assume that I'd just use a crew of wetbacks to run my installs at around $250 per system, but some would be wrong. I use one contractor, a white dude from Michigan in his mid-40s, and he's paid anywhere from $400-600 per job. Why? Several reasons. For one, He works with the mindset of working "with me" not "for me", so I'm not required to hold his hand through every step of every install. I can just relay what needs to be done over the phone and cut him loose on it. Two, he works twice as hard as any mexican labor there is. I don't know how the illegals work in other parts of the country, but here they do just enough work to keep them on the job and nothing more. I met my installer at my old job before I set out on my own. I was a tech and he ran a crew of installers. His job was to weed out the ones that wanted to work from the ones that were there to ride along for the paycheck by working them into the ground for a week or so and seeing who was left. Three, I'm in the service industry, so the only advantage I have over the competition is that I can put in the same product, only cheaper and better. Illegal labor only addresses the cheaper part. Generally speaking, mexicans suck ass at providing a high standard of quality. In most industries that use immigrant labor, there's one constant among there crews. There's the general group of guys (in varying numbers) that do the sloppy bulk of the work, then there's the finish guy who cleans everything up and creates the finished product that the customer will see. He's the guy who makes a few dollars more an hour, and usually the one who runs the crew and speaks a little english (sometimes), a.k.a. Jefe. Where I live, this formula applies to everything from roofing, to drywall, to landscaping, to upholstery work, to commercial painting, aside from the standard A/C, plumbing, and electrical trades.

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 11:57 AM

My company requires some of the shittiest labor there is, installing A/C systems in 150-160 degree attics in Houston. The illegal labor pool is bigger here than in most other cities around the nation. Some would assume that I'd just use a crew of wetbacks to run my installs at around $250 per system, but some would be wrong. I use one contractor, a white dude from Michigan in his mid-40s, and he's paid anywhere from $400-600 per job. Why? Several reasons. For one, He works with the mindset of working "with me" not "for me", so I'm not required to hold his hand through every step of every install. I can just relay what needs to be done over the phone and cut him loose on it. Two, he works twice as hard as any mexican labor there is. I don't know how the illegals work in other parts of the country, but here they do just enough work to keep them on the job and nothing more. I met my installer at my old job before I set out on my own. I was a tech and he ran a crew of installers. His job was to weed out the ones that wanted to work from the ones that were there to ride along for the paycheck by working them into the ground for a week or so and seeing who was left. Three, I'm in the service industry, so the only advantage I have over the competition is that I can put in the same product, only cheaper and better. Illegal labor only addresses the cheaper part. Generally speaking, mexicans suck ass at providing a high standard of quality. In most industries that use immigrant labor, there's one constant among there crews. There's the general group of guys (in varying numbers) that do the sloppy bulk of the work, then there's the finish guy who cleans everything up and creates the finished product that the customer will see. He's the guy who makes a few dollars more an hour, and usually the one who runs the crew and speaks a little english (sometimes), a.k.a. Jefe. Where I live, this formula applies to everything from roofing, to drywall, to landscaping, to upholstery work, to commercial painting, aside from the standard A/C, plumbing, and electrical trades.

Congrats Pidge for not selling out your own people for illegals. I respect the fact you would rather pay more to an American then hire an illegal. Now if the US had more people like you maybe their wouldn't be an illegal problem.

Nocturnal

10-14-2005, 12:39 PM

sigh, this is such a convuluted problem, most of the facts have been drowned in spin

Immigrants very rarely take american jobs, that idea is just silly.

Frequently economies such as ours benefit from an influx of low-skilled labor, as the resident population ages or moves to high skilled jobs.

Our current system is really setup so that the nation can take advantage of the immigrants (especially because they rarely receive minimum wage/ etc. ) while allowing public anger against immigration to be set against the vague problem of border control.

The average american really has zero information on how immigration truly affects them, so much bad information is out there that well reasoned arguments for immigration will fall on deaf ears, hence the "looking the other way" on illegals.

The current number of illegal immigrants in the US is enourmous, it would be next to impossible to round these people up. Any punitive action directed at employers of these people would create a huge number of unemployable people, and likely push them into becoming criminals.

There are security concerns involved with so many illegal aliens, however these pale in comparison to the economic concerns. Our nation has too many borders to keep out determined, skilled, well financed intruders (ie Al Qaeda) so it's not as if blocking out mexicans would make us much safer.

Many industries have grown to depend on this labor source. Any drastic change would bankrupt whole sectors of our economy. For example it is estimated that 85% of all farm labor is done by illegal aliens. Note that americans would not be willing to do these jobs for anywhere near the wages paid to these people.

Removing them from the labor pool would drastically increase prices of many foodstuffs and likely not create many new jobs for resident americans. Despite what many will argue, for any given enterprise there is a point where the cost of machinery will become cheaper than paying for a unit of human labor. To continue on the farming example, some crops are efficiently harvested by machines (cheaper than even paying illegals) however some crops would be too expensive to harvest by machine (when compared to cheap immigrant labor).

For a theoretical example, lets say that grapes cost $100 a ton using immigrant labor. It is possible that machines could harvets the grapes for a cost of $200 a ton, obviously companies are going to use illegal labor instead of paying for machinery. If these illegals were removed from the labor pool, the resulting increase in wages required to hire americans might raise the human labor price to $250 a ton, at this point companies would rather invest in machinery.

Removing illegal/immigrant labor from our economy would also probably exacerbate the problem of outsourcing. For the US a farm that employs 500 mexicans, and 50 white supervisors is superior to that farm being forced to close down or move to another country. (obviously that example is drastically oversimplified as I have not taken into account soil quality etc. )

DTNODYA

10-14-2005, 12:56 PM

They bring bad drugs to the US. Thats all....:blahblah:

Deathmate

10-14-2005, 01:03 PM

Illegals wont take my job, I know that, but it doesnt change the fact that they piss AND SHIT on the fucking SIDEWALK down on Cesar Chavez street (formerly Army street) here in San Francisco.

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 01:15 PM

Many industries have grown to depend on this labor source. Any drastic change would bankrupt whole sectors of our economy. For example it is estimated that 85% of all farm labor is done by illegal aliens. Note that americans would not be willing to do these jobs for anywhere near the wages paid to these people.

What people don't understand is these farms that hire these illegals can BARELY afford to pay the minimum. These farms pay the minimum and they pay for how much fruit they pick in the day, so any hardworking American can make descent money if their willing to work extremely hard and pick as much fruit as possible.

It's hilarious that some of you believe these farms that can barely survive would pay more then twice the minimum and pay benifits to Americans, alot of farmers would go out of business if they did that.

Maverick

10-14-2005, 02:32 PM

What people don't understand is these farms that hire these illegals can BARELY afford to pay the minimum. These farms pay the minimum and they pay for how much fruit they pick in the day, so any hardworking American can make descent money if their willing to work extremely hard and pick as much fruit as possible.

It's hilarious that some of you believe these farms that can barely survive would pay more then twice the minimum and pay benifits to Americans, alot of farmers would go out of business if they did that.
The prices would go up to support the higher wages.

SectorNine

10-14-2005, 02:45 PM

Yeah your right because since the longest time US companies have been paying Americans what they actually deserve. Gimme a fucking a break. You think companies become rich because they pay the poor Americans they hire well?

Ask the supervisor of a Walmart in Nashville why the fuck they only pay the minimum to the Americans they hire their. Oh it must be the flood of illegals in Nashville that keep the wages low, huh? Because god knows all the illegals in the states where their are FEW OR ZERO ILLEGALS still somehow magically manage to keep the wages low.
I am so tired of you missing the fucking point. The argument isn't about people getting paid what they "deserve". It is the fact that if there were no illegals, Americans would be the ones in the job. If those Americans are willing to work for minimun, so be it. If they aren't, the wage would have to be increased. Noone said that without illegals everyone would make decent money. The point is that Americans would have the job, pay the taxes, keep the money in the same economy, etc.

You know you keep dwelling on the whole shitty jobs issue of illegal immigration. What about all the other issues? The diseases they bring in the country, the money they leach off of our social assistance programs, the gangs that cross over, the drugs, the possible terrorists that gain entry through leaky borders, the tax free money that is being spent in the Mexican economy. What about these issues...the real ones?
If you want to attack those issues please feal free. If you are just going to repeat the bullshit about the shitty jobs I have said my peace.

Nocturnal

10-14-2005, 02:59 PM

Prices would go up, but the assumption that these jobs would automatically go to americans at $6-$10 an hour isn't based on much. There is a good possiblity that if we got rid of 100 immigrant works we would only create a handfull of american jobs.

Milkymilk

10-14-2005, 03:32 PM

Ill admit I'm racist against Mexicans. I didnt used to be like this, until I moved to California. Before I lived in California, if anything, I thought Latin Culture was cool, I liked their food n lowriders n whatnot. If someone said "I'm Mexican" I would have said "cool" and attempted some spanish with them. Now that I ive lived here in Southern California for a few years, Ive done a complete 180.

Nowadays, everytime I see some fat Mexican chick, in a hoochie skirt, with her bean hanging out, pushing a baby stroller with two fat snotty kids in front, and three in back, and a very slow grandma walking 10 feet behind, I think of cockroachs. I can't help it, they remind me of cockroaches. Sometimes I wish there was a Mexican Bug Spray that would make them all drop dead. They breed and breed and breed. Thats all they do, and nothing else.....babies and babies and babies and babies and then more babies. When will it end!?! Its the same kind of revulsion I get when, Ive seen a nest of bugs thats been at it for a while.

Swat them down like the bugs they are! Make it stop!! They are crawling all over me, Mexican babys! Everywhere! make them stop! Damnit make it stop!

Nocturnal

10-14-2005, 04:01 PM

TFS

10-14-2005, 04:03 PM

if it makes you feel better they probably touch 75% of what you eat at some point in the production process:lmao:
Shit, dude, I'm marching in my homecoming parade with ROTC in an hour and I'm going to be cracking up thinking about that.

I'm gonna have a major asking me why the fuck I'm crying...

Milkymilk

10-14-2005, 04:08 PM

if it makes you feel better they probably touch 75% of what you eat at some point in the production process:lmao:

Hm.. maybe theres a connection? Come to think of it, I did see what looked like tiny Mexican bitemarks on that last piece of corn I ate. Who knows? maybe those little black things in that bag of flower I opened were little Mexican droppings.

Urp.. I think im gonna be sick.
/turns green

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 04:25 PM

I am so tired of you missing the fucking point. The argument isn't about people getting paid what they "deserve". It is the fact that if there were no illegals, Americans would be the ones in the job. If those Americans are willing to work for minimun, so be it. If they aren't, the wage would have to be increased. Noone said that without illegals everyone would make decent money. The point is that Americans would have the job, pay the taxes, keep the money in the same economy, etc.

You know you keep dwelling on the whole shitty jobs issue of illegal immigration. What about all the other issues? The diseases they bring in the country, the money they leach off of our social assistance programs, the gangs that cross over, the drugs, the possible terrorists that gain entry through leaky borders, the tax free money that is being spent in the Mexican economy. What about these issues...the real ones?
If you want to attack those issues please feal free. If you are just going to repeat the bullshit about the shitty jobs I have said my peace.

Wage be increased? What the fuck are you talking about? You think farmers in Georgia, Nebraska and Florida CAN afford to pay more to the help if their already struggling to survive?

Here is proof that your plan is complete nonsense.

From the onion fields of South Georgia to the carpet mills of North Georgia, illegal immigrants are embedded in the state's economy, performing work that most Americans won't do for wages that most Americans wouldn't accept. Community leaders in Dalton say that if Mexicans had not come to work in the city's carpet mills, the mills would have moved to Mexico.

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0404/25jobs.html

Yeah your ridicoulous idea of farmers paying more to Americans to take they shitty jobs is bullshit because companies would rather leave the US then pay Americans more.

And the reason, I keep on dwelling of the whole illegals working in the shitty jobs like picking crap is because you have this bullshit idea that somehow these farmers and companies would pay more to Americans which is complete bullshit as the article, I posted confirms. It's really sad how you somehow believe these companies that couldn't give a rats ass about giving jobs to Americans would start now and NOT take their business elsewhere like Mexico were they can pay the legals like $5.00 a day instead of like $50.00 .

As for the other bad things illegals contribute to society it's true. Who said it wasn't?

Nocturnal

10-14-2005, 04:32 PM

Removing illegal/immigrant labor from our economy would also probably exacerbate the problem of outsourcing. For the US, a farm that employs 500 mexicans, and 50 white supervisors is superior to that farm being forced to close down or move to another country. (obviously that example is drastically oversimplified as I have not taken into account soil quality etc. )

Here is proof that your plan is complete nonsense.

From the onion fields of South Georgia to the carpet mills of North Georgia, illegal immigrants are embedded in the state's economy, performing work that most Americans won't do for wages that most Americans wouldn't accept. Community leaders in Dalton say that if Mexicans had not come to work in the city's carpet mills, the mills would have moved to Mexico.

excellent, it turns out my suspicion on the matter has some support

SectorNine

10-14-2005, 05:17 PM

From your article Lost_cause:
Patrick knows that his "guest workers" are legal, and he must pay them at least $7.49 an hour, provide them housing and pay for transportation and other costs.

When I was in high school I had a shitty job removing vines from around the grounds of a local bed and breakfast. It was hard ass work that I was only paid $6.25 an hour, had to have my own transportation, and didn't give me any kind of housing. Yet in my small community (less than 6,000 people at the time) they had no problem finding highschool kids/other workers to do the job. My point? There were no illegals in my town, yet somehow they didn't have to shut down business. Same as the other orchards and farms in my area. Somehow they were able to survive without illegals, or moving their business to Mexico. You can't generalize an issue with one or two individual cases...mine or yours.

My point is that sure, maybe some farms will shut down, maybe some will go to Mexico, maybe we will have to pay $5/lb for grapes, but our farming economy will not just disappear. What I am saying is as Americans we will always survive, and the benifits from closing up the borders far outway the possible problems we would have to overcome concerning the job force.

Deathmate

10-14-2005, 05:34 PM

Maybe if we didnt have illegals bringing down the price of food, Americans wouldnt be so fat.

YouEnjoyMyself

10-14-2005, 05:35 PM

Maybe if we didnt have illegals bringing down the price of food, Americans wouldnt be so fat.

Typical attitude, blame someone else.

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 05:36 PM

From your article Lost_cause:

When I was in high school I had a shitty job removing vines from around the grounds of a local bed and breakfast. It was hard ass work that I was only paid $6.25 an hour, had to have my own transportation, and didn't give me any kind of housing. Yet in my small community (less than 6,000 people at the time) they had no problem finding highschool kids/other workers to do the job. My point? There were no illegals in my town, yet somehow they didn't have to shut down business. Same as the other orchards and farms in my area. Somehow they were able to survive without illegals, or moving their business to Mexico. You can't generalize an issue with one or two individual cases...mine or yours.

My point is that sure, maybe some farms will shut down, maybe some will go to Mexico, maybe we will have to pay $5/lb for grapes, but our farming economy will not just disappear. What I am saying is as Americans we will always survive, and the benifits from closing up the borders far outway the possible problems we would have to overcome concerning the job force.

You see that's the thing most places aren't like where you worked. The reality is ALOT of farms that been around for awhile would close and companies would leave the US because they will NOT pay more then the minimum.

Now you said you made $6.25 that's the minimum right? You see if you ain't getting payed more then the minimum now when your area doesn't have illegals, why would other places start paying more to Americans when they can get people like you? The problem their isn't that many people like you who are willing to do that kind of job for that amount of money, because if that wasn't the case all these farms would hire people like yourself and this whole illegals in farms wouldn't exist.

Like, I said the companies would rather move then pay more.

And of course farming would never die, but alot of farms would close and their is gonna be ALOT of pissed of American companies that contribute to both the republican and democratic parties.

Here is more proof that farming in the US would be hit hard if they weren't immigrants picking shit.

Q. What will happen if we don't develop a guest worker program?

A. If growers cannot locate and hire enough workers to fill seasonal needs, the effects will likely be severe. Without an adequate labor supply, perishable crops like fruits and vegetables will simply be left in the field. As a result, prices will rise, forcing production elsewhere. Packers, shippers, farm equipment suppliers and others will be affected by the failure to address agriculture's labor needs. Without an effective guest worker program we will simply ship these jobs and markets to other countries.

http://www.fb.org/news/fbn/97/09_15/html/ag.html

longlaw

10-14-2005, 05:39 PM

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 05:44 PM

we should start another industrial revolution and use all this cheap labor to get rid of the trade deficit and make america the most industrialized nation. nothing like a pool of cheap unskilled workers just waiting to be taken advantage of.

This is already happening in California the largest prison-industrial complex where inmates get payed 10 cents an hour. California has it's own little China in prisons.

longlaw

10-14-2005, 05:47 PM

its a good start, but if companys would quit shipping themselves overseas and actually take advantage of the available workforce on a large scale, it would mean nothing but good things.

but then of course it would only be a few years of productivity before unions brought us back to the level we are at now.

social darwinism is retarded.

Nocturnal

10-14-2005, 06:21 PM

but then of course it would only be a few years of productivity before unions brought us back to the level we are at now.

social darwinism is retarded.

Unions will decrease productivity, but the real question is what is your goal as a society. You can maximize productivity and profits, or you can create an enviornment where your citizens have a high quality of life. So for a given inudstry, a union might lower total productivity, but society at large might be better off.

RabbitAssRome

10-14-2005, 06:24 PM

you know what i think?
send me round wid a pair of katanas and a pair of uzis n let me kill em all,im not racist(yes i am) but there so annoyingly like rabbits!!!!!!breed like mad!!!!!!

Quick_Draw21

10-14-2005, 06:40 PM

you know what i think?
send me round wid a pair of katanas and a pair of uzis n let me kill em all,im not racist(yes i am) but there so annoyingly like rabbits!!!!!!breed like mad!!!!!!
did you read the CE description? Lol and as if you knew how to use any kind of weapon :lmao:

SectorNine

10-14-2005, 07:03 PM

Now you said you made $6.25 that's the minimum right? You see if you ain't getting payed more then the minimum now when your area doesn't have illegals
You assume too much kid. When I was in high school working this job the minimum wage was $5.15/hr which further disproves you.

why would other places start paying more to Americans when they can get people like you?
First off I am an American, so I am not sure what you mean by people like me? Secondly you are proving my point. Reading above you will see that they were paying me above minimum wage. They had to raise their hiring pay to meet a level that people were willing to work at (me and the others working, not all high school kids btw).

The problem their isn't that many people like you who are willing to do that kind of job for that amount of money, because if that wasn't the case all these farms would hire people like yourself and this whole illegals in farms wouldn't exist.
No. You have this backwards. Let me show you what it should say.
The problem there is that illegals are willing to work for dirt cheap, because if that wasn't the case, all these farms would hire Americans at a rate which the people would do the work.
Farms would have to raise their pay until people were willing to work for that amount. How many times must I say this? And the idea that a whole farm is going to uproot and move to mexico is highly unlikely. It would cost far too much. What's more likely? They will raise the price of their good to offset the cost (and it wouldn't go up as much as you think). I mean in my case the difference between minimum wage was $1.10/hr. @ 40 hrs/wk 52 wks/yr = $2288/yr extra. Hardly enough to justify moving a hard rooted business. It's much easier to split the diff by raising prices.

DazednConfused

10-14-2005, 08:25 PM

It seems like all i'm reading from the pro illegal alien side is arguments about low level jobs. I don't agree with most of your arguments there but even if you guys were right there would still be a problem. It's not just low level jobs that are hit by illegals. As said many times before in this thread there is a whole supply and demand going on. By accepting lower wages for painting, construction, landscaping ect they hurt mid level fields too.

Although the reason why most americans like to hold out for better pay/ working conditions is just to help themselves out, it ends up benifiting the entire workforce. When employers can't find enough people to work for their company at the current pay, they are forced to raise it. That is, of course, untill you bring illegals into the picture. They accept lower wages and work longer hours without overtime and fuck the whole system up for their fellow workers.

As for the whole minimum wage thing, I do agree that a large percent of illegals work at or above min wage, but for every one that does work below it(and yes, there are many) that's one would be minimum wage( or perhaps higher if they can't find enough min wage workers) job that's gone.

TFS

10-14-2005, 09:07 PM

Y'know I see some good arguments and bad arguments all over. It happens to seem to me that the pro-illegals are giving the bad arguments, and most of the anti-illegals are giving the better arguments (some exceptions exist. Milkymilk being a shining example, although humorous).

But it's not even an issue of minimum wages or availability of jobs even if this is possibly the most prominent side effect of illegal immigration.

Disease is another good reason to be against it since there are obvious glaring differences in the quality in health care between nations and the quality that these people even actually receive in either country due to their social status.

Social program abuse is another good argument, as this is already a topic of much debate even before you enter illegal aliens into the equation. They're taking something that is a cause for concern and making it worse.

Terrorism is an obvious one.

But the big thing is quite simple and obvious. It's right there in the label. The best reason to stop illegal aliens from entering the United States is because it is illegal. This means that despite their affect on society, no matter good or bad, it is our civil duty to do what we can to stop them until that condition changes. By not, you are in a way committing treason by not supporting the Constitution, which is in the very oath legal immigrants take to gain citizenship.

How about all of you that are pro-let 'em stay here start lobbying for the government to legalize all immigration without any form of regulation. Then they won't be illegal anymore. Then you can justify how they interact and affect our society.

Lost__Cause

10-14-2005, 10:42 PM

You assume too much kid. When I was in high school working this job the minimum wage was $5.15/hr which further disproves you.

Oh and how many of you were doing this exact same job? Were their like hundreds of you that got payed $6.25 an hour for doing the same job?

First off I am an American, so I am not sure what you mean by people like me? Secondly you are proving my point. Reading above you will see that they were paying me above minimum wage. They had to raise their hiring pay to meet a level that people were willing to work at (me and the others working, not all high school kids btw).

When, I said people like you, I meant Americans that would do cheap labor for not that much money.

And once again your reinforcing my argument. Why don't all these farms that are paying the minimum raise their pay to attract Americans? If like you say it could be done and farms could afford it.

No. You have this backwards. Let me show you what it should say.

Farms would have to raise their pay until people were willing to work for that amount. How many times must I say this? And the idea that a whole farm is going to uproot and move to mexico is highly unlikely. It would cost far too much. What's more likely? They will raise the price of their good to offset the cost (and it wouldn't go up as much as you think). I mean in my case the difference between minimum wage was $1.10/hr. @ 40 hrs/wk 52 wks/yr = $2288/yr extra. Hardly enough to justify moving a hard rooted business. It's much easier to split the diff by raising prices.[/LEFT]

Farms would raise pay? Do you realize that almost 60% of farms in the US don't even operate to make a profit? Their are 2 million Farms in the US and they are SHRINKING not growing. MOST farms are small-scale farms that CAN'T afford to raise wages because their are competing with the few but HUGE farms that get BILLIONS of taxpayer money from the commodity subsidy program.

Small farms and ranches, which the USDA's Agricultural Statistics Service defines as operations with less than $250,000 in gross annual sales, make up almost 92.3 percent of all farms in the United States. Most small-scale farmers earn only about $23,000 in net cash income annually, since production costs absorb more than 80 percent of gross sales.

http://spectre.nmsu.edu/media/news2.lasso?i=244

Yeah most farmers only make $23,000 annually and you expect them to raise wages?

Many of the largest, most profitable farms and agribusinesses that have received the lion's share of subsidies have used these funds to buy out smaller farms. In what one agriculture official calls the "plantation effect," family farms with less than 100 acres of land are being bought out by larger agribusinesses, which then convert them into tenant farms. To date, three-quarters of the nation's rice farms have already become tenant farms, and the ownership of other types of farms is beginning to trend in that same direction.9

In other words, far from saving America's family farms, the current farm subsidy system is destroying them.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/BG1520.cfm

WalterUkraine

10-18-2005, 04:50 AM

Personally I don't understand people willingly going to another country to become a slave there. I believe it's possible to live well at home. Even if your country is not quite successful.

Asbestos Crayon

10-18-2005, 01:13 PM