• Styxhexnhammer666

  • Needless flaming & idiocy are grounds for banning.
Needless flaming & idiocy are grounds for banning.
Forum rules: Please keep all conversation civil and productive. Any trolling or shit-posting will be removed and repeat offenders will be banned from the Enlightened Discussion forum.
 #121145  by JohnnyP
 Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:35 am

Dude looks like a cross between Jesus and John Lennon but he's pretty politically savy and has good opinions about shit.
 #121150  by SkeetDixon
 Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:05 am
Ha, was literally just watching this vid. Styx is a bit of a Cuck, but he's come a long ways. He does produce good content though.
 #121481  by covfefe
 Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:10 am
Suppose that Trump sits down for an interview with CNN or MSNBC. All that does is make those outlets look legitimate. It doesn’t achieve anything beyond that. It isn’t like CNN or whatever is going to put together a good interview or act in good faith – if they were going to then why wouldn’t they do that already in their reporting? And it isn’t like Trump is going to ‘win’ the interview by showing CNN viewers how poor their interviewers are (the people watching the interview don’t care). So having the interview at all is a win for CNN and a loss for Trump.

We can say the same thing about the NK summit. All it did was make NK look legitimate on the world stage, and it makes Kim look like a legitimate leader to his people (rather than a kleptocrat). But it’s a loss for Trump. Trump can’t win the summit because NK isn’t going to act in good faith – if they were going to then why wouldn’t they do that already? And it isn’t like Trump is going to win the summit by showing that NK is an illegitimate state and a kleptocracy. So the summit is a win for NK and a loss for Trump. Now NK can use propaganda videos with Kim and Trump to squash any dissent in NK – “look I’m not a petty tyrant, I’m a legitimate world leader who has shaken hands with the leader of the free world”.

Now, Styx says that he can’t find anything about the NK summit that he disagrees with. He says that Clinton, Bush, and Obama all failed, and that Trump succeeded. Styx says this because he genuinely thinks that we now have at least the vague notion of denuclearization.

But this is really ignorant of him. It show that he doesn't know the history between NK and the US. While it is true that we have the vague notion of denuclearization, this is the exact same thing that the three previous administrations got out of NK too.

Remember that Clinton ‘succeeded’ in getting the Agreed Framework in 1994. In this agreement NK said they would stop building nuclear reactors. That’s a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization too - but that didn’t work out. Instead, things got worse.

So then Bush rightly abandoned the Agreed Framework in 2002. He instead used joint-diplomatic negotiations (with NK, SK, China, Japan, and Russia). That led to NK agreeing to abandon their nuclear weapons and nuclear programs. Those were their exact words: abandon the weapons and the program. So that too counts as a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization. But of course that didn’t work either. And things got worse still.

Finally, Obama abandoned the joint-diplomatic negotiations. He instead used sanctions. This lead to the Leap Day Agreement in 2012. And in that agreement NK said they would stop using their nuclear reactors. Again, that’s a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization’. But that didn’t work out either. And so here we are today.

So Styx is 100% dead wrong that Trump has succeeded where previous administrators have failed. Rather, Trump has gotten the exact same vague promise out of NK as did Clinton, Bush, and Obama. Except Trump achieved it by accidentally legitimating NK on the world stage.

I call that a loss.
kocher liked this
 #121570  by JohnnyP
 Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:22 am
covfefe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:10 am
Suppose that Trump sits down for an interview with CNN or MSNBC. All that does is make those outlets look legitimate. It doesn’t achieve anything beyond that. It isn’t like CNN or whatever is going to put together a good interview or act in good faith – if they were going to then why wouldn’t they do that already in their reporting? And it isn’t like Trump is going to ‘win’ the interview by showing CNN viewers how poor their interviewers are (the people watching the interview don’t care). So having the interview at all is a win for CNN and a loss for Trump.

We can say the same thing about the NK summit. All it did was make NK look legitimate on the world stage, and it makes Kim look like a legitimate leader to his people (rather than a kleptocrat). But it’s a loss for Trump. Trump can’t win the summit because NK isn’t going to act in good faith – if they were going to then why wouldn’t they do that already? And it isn’t like Trump is going to win the summit by showing that NK is an illegitimate state and a kleptocracy. So the summit is a win for NK and a loss for Trump. Now NK can use propaganda videos with Kim and Trump to squash any dissent in NK – “look I’m not a petty tyrant, I’m a legitimate world leader who has shaken hands with the leader of the free world”.

Now, Styx says that he can’t find anything about the NK summit that he disagrees with. He says that Clinton, Bush, and Obama all failed, and that Trump succeeded. Styx says this because he genuinely thinks that we now have at least the vague notion of denuclearization.

But this is really ignorant of him. It show that he doesn't know the history between NK and the US. While it is true that we have the vague notion of denuclearization, this is the exact same thing that the three previous administrations got out of NK too.

Remember that Clinton ‘succeeded’ in getting the Agreed Framework in 1994. In this agreement NK said they would stop building nuclear reactors. That’s a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization too - but that didn’t work out. Instead, things got worse.

So then Bush rightly abandoned the Agreed Framework in 2002. He instead used joint-diplomatic negotiations (with NK, SK, China, Japan, and Russia). That led to NK agreeing to abandon their nuclear weapons and nuclear programs. Those were their exact words: abandon the weapons and the program. So that too counts as a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization. But of course that didn’t work either. And things got worse still.

Finally, Obama abandoned the joint-diplomatic negotiations. He instead used sanctions. This lead to the Leap Day Agreement in 2012. And in that agreement NK said they would stop using their nuclear reactors. Again, that’s a ‘vague notion’ of denuclearization’. But that didn’t work out either. And so here we are today.

So Styx is 100% dead wrong that Trump has succeeded where previous administrators have failed. Rather, Trump has gotten the exact same vague promise out of NK as did Clinton, Bush, and Obama. Except Trump achieved it by accidentally legitimating NK on the world stage.

I call that a loss.
Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. North Korea might not even have nukes if it wasn't for the Clinton Admin foolishly agreeing to allow the building of light water nuclear plants in North Korea. They use enriched uranium to function and the North Koreans just switched their nuclear weapons program from plutonium based to one that used enriched uranium. A colossal fuck up.

Bush to his credit ends the Clinton Admin's foolish agreement with North Korea after he finds out the North Koreans are now using enriched uranium for a nuke. Bush tried to negotiate a new treaty in 2006 offering considerable concessions including removing North Korea from the list of state sponsored terrorism but failed miserably.

The Obama Admin considered North Korean nuclear disarmament a lost cause after their blunder in 2012 and adopted the policy of "strategic patience". Better known as we suck at national security matters so let's just ignore the problem and let the next administration handle it. After all America is always at fault for everything anyway.

Whether you think he is legitimate or not Kim Jung Un is the leader of North Korea. You complain that Trump gives him legitimacy to his people but he already has it. They view him as a god. So you would rather risk the chance of an agreement not taking place and possible nuclear confrontation because you don't want Kim Jong Un to be popular in North Korea? Yeah, that seems logical. :roll:

Trump succeeded because he got the North Koreans to put denuclearization on the table. They never offered that with the 3 previous administrations. That's why Styx said Trump succeeded where the others failed.
 #121573  by covfefe
 Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:45 am
You’re right that the Clinton admin was responsible for allowing NK to ramp up their nuclear program. That’s why I put ‘succeeded’ in quotes. It wasn’t a success at all. It made things much much worse. Doing nothing would have somehow been more effective.

But my point was the Agreed Framework (which I agree was a complete a disaster) initially resulted in NK saying they would stop building nuclear reactors. NK agreed to denuclearization in 1994. And again in 2002. And again in 2012. And a bunch of other times throughout history. NK promises of denuclearization are not new at all.